Mormonism, Polygamy, and Warren Jeffs

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Sometimes it’s difficult to tell the difference between crimes, abuse and cultural differences. The “only” crime Jeffs was charged with
I find these statements facinating. You have minimized and justified, thus have perceived, conceived and now believe. Otherwise there would be no need to defend it.

What others have done or do in Islam or anywhere else gives another permission to repeat? So, its OK for me to say Islam martyred million’s of Christians last century, so thus its OK to martyr Christians:shrug: So the permission comes as, because others behaved this way so why can’t I? The birth rate will not deter this behavior either. For that really is not the issue.

IMHO , if in fact you truly believe in this behavior, then put it up for what it is and see if it lives as Truth. This isn’t a new concept in mankind as you correctly state. Your not doing this because Islam does. Your doing this because “you” as a group and individuals came to view it as reality.

I am trying to understand how? Is it to difficult to discuss? As I have asked you, is it likely that God Himself would be capible of this kind of thinking in regards to polygamy? Lets face the fact, if He didn’t create it, He is not maintaining it.

Peace
 
SO far as I know, Mormons and Catholics both practise intergenerational and incestuous marriage to the same degree. You are probably confusing Mormons with FLDS. You have not been paying attention.
I’m talking about polygamy. Polygamy, never authorized by the Catholic Church, but practiced by the Latter-Day-Saint movement from Joseph Smith to today. Joseph Smith ‘married’ teenagers and the practice has included close relatives (incest); because there was not an infinite supply of available women.
 
I’d be interested if modern Muslims show the same effect. Polygamy there is much more acceptable and has been practised for much longer.
I was in Saudi Arabia for nine months. I never met a Muslim who practiced polygamy. They are allowed four wives but it is too expensive for common people and the rich choose not to do it. I was told it was western influence.
 
Gary,

Your post here is excellent and, hopefully, thought-provoking to the Mormons who come to read it.

There is so much covering up by the Mormon administration of its founders, as well as who actually even wrote the Book of Mormon, the Doctrines and Covenants…can’t be the work of one person…Joseph Smith was too active…look at how the Bible was formed; it took the work of many people and many years.
 
Ooops, soren1, I do apologize, I see your source now. It was important and I missed it. And it brings up a lot of questions about the practice of polygamy that are difficult to answer with regard to fertility and married/unmarried partners. I am thinking that there are less unmarried woman under polygamy but I don’t know for sure. Any sources on that?
In this particular study, it was found that each additional wife in a polygamous family decreased the lifetime fertility of the other wives by one child each. Do you realize how drastic that is? It is a devastating blow that destines polygamy to become counterproductive once the number of wives exceeds a certain, small number. Specifically, if a monogamous wife has X children, then plural marriage will become counterproductive when the male exceed X/2 wives. Let’s take a mild case to see what this pattern predicts. Let’s say a man has just two wives. What is the impact of that on their fertility? Suppose the expectation for a monogamous woman born in a given year is to have seven children. If she marries a man with one other wife, so that each wife is now expected to produce six children, we already have a big drop, of a full 14%, for female fertility. With a third wife, the drop attains to 28%.

To offset a reduction of that magnitude by creating more opportunity for women to marry would require a high excess of women in the Utah territory, thought there was none. At its zenith, 17% of Mormon men were polygamous. If we take the most conservative estimate that mathematics allows, and say that each had only two wives, and that the female population was exactly equal instead of smaller than the male population, we can calculate that 34% of women belonged to polygamous unions. A 14% drop in fertility among those women would therefore amount to a 5.8% reduction in reproduction among the entire female population. Business would have to be really booming for the other women to offset that kind of loss. It would require polygamy to yield a major improvement on male availability to women. Yet, because, as in all frontier states, men already outnumbered women in Utah by a fair margin, then the increase of unmarried males was mostly water over the dam. There were already excess men available to the women. That will not make the kind of impact that could overcome a near-6% drop in reproduction.

Remembering of course that 6% is a number I predict from the most conservative initial estimates, the gravity of the situation appears even more clearly if you know the real number that the study found. I just read it, and it says that the mean drop in reproductive success among Mormon women over a sixty-five year period was a full 37%.
The study you cite is on 19th century Mormons. I’d be interested if modern Muslims show the same effect. Polygamy there is much more acceptable and has been practised for much longer. I think you’d probably get more reliable results.
I cited a study on nineteenth century Mormons, because those are the people who are relevant to our discussion. Yet all of the reasoning I gave for why the study’s results are predictable should apply to polygamy generally. The question I put forward, to which you have yet to venture an answer, is pretty much culturally neutral: * Is a woman going to have as many children when her husband shares his attention with three other women as when he is devoted only to her?*

I can easily believe that the adverse effects of polygamy on birth rates might differ in degree from culture to culture. Might there be some society where the impact of having a new wife reduces the fertility of the others by only .5 children each? Maybe. But there is no reason to suppose that polygamy could actually help, and the data has only confirmed what was already obvious, and was certainly obvious to me long before I ever read about the research. All it would take for polygamy to reduce the birthrate would be if this happened from time to time: A woman, because her husband spends time with his other wife, occasionally conceives one month later that she would have if he had been with her during her previous period of fertility. That’s it. That little delay, even if only occasional, ensures the conclusion. Repeated over time across any polygamous population, it would lower the birth rate perforce. Or do you think that only happens in Utah?

But don’t let the open-and-shut statistical arguments distract us from my original point. The reason I am arguing about the adverse effects of polygamy upon procreation is not sociological, but theological. This is because it disproves the only theological justification Mormons have for why God can authorize polygamy:
For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things. (Jacob 2:30)
When polygamy is revealed to be A) a formula for slowing population growth, and B) an historic cause of stagnation in growing the LDS population, then we can see both that Jacob’s words here are false in their own right and also inapplicable to Mormons historically. At the same time, Jacob’s main objection to polygamy, the suffering of women under their husbands and the value of chastity were compromised under Mormon polygamy.
 
I’m going to have to go to Carolyn Jessop’s book to get the list of abuses. Sometimes it’s difficult to tell the difference between crimes, abuse and cultural differences. No question that there was a lot of physical abuse but it was rarely between the man and one of his wives. In her case, it was often the favourite wife beating the other wives’ kids. In some cultures, that’s an acceptable thing, beating your wife or children, although it would be abhorrent to us. The only crime Jeffs was charged with underage marriage but the abuse was phenominal.
Her affidavit is here: vancouversun.com/pdf/affidavitcarolynjessop.pdf. It’s a little hard to read but gives you an idea of what she is saying.
That report sure is hard to read! But I will get to it tonight. Which book of Carolyn Jessup are you talking about? If I can acquire a copy we can have a better discussion about it.
 
Soren1:

Carolyn Jessop actually wrote two books, one after her escape and it’s called…Escape. In her book she mentions a much earlier raid on the FLDS by the state of AZ. and how the mishandling of a sensitive and difficult situation hardened a polygamous people into their way of life. It made it much more difficult for the state to prosecute them for anything. You can read about it here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Short_Creek_raid.

Anyway, when TX was planning a raid, she was called in as a consultant and was part of the raid. She writes about that in her second book, Triumph. Take a look here: goodreads.com/author/show/427437.Carolyn_Jessop

I know most people on this forum are interested in polygamy mainly as a forum to critisize Mormons but I think it’s a problem for anyone who realizes that the twelve tribes of Israel came from four different wives. And I can understand it as a sort of cure for barren women. There’s a lot of things in the Old Testament I really wonder at but I’m not ready to dismiss it as being replaced by the NT. There was a point to all what they did back then. But I still have a hard time understanding polygamy and your little revelation about how it holds back population growth doesn’t help!

One of the odd pieces of Carolyn Jessop’s story is that despite her years of suffering (after the escape she develop PTSD, post traumatic stress disorder), her oldest daughter went back to living with the FLDS. It’s so ironic–the main reason why Carolyn escaped in the first place was to save her daughter from a polygamous marriage. And her daughter had lived away from the FLDS and with her Mom in regular society for a couple of years before she returned. Like I said, I’m still trying to understand it but it’s not so simple.
 
Soren1:

Carolyn Jessop actually wrote two books, one after her escape and it’s called…Escape. In her book she mentions a much earlier raid on the FLDS by the state of AZ. and how the mishandling of a sensitive and difficult situation hardened a polygamous people into their way of life. It made it much more difficult for the state to prosecute them for anything. You can read about it here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Short_Creek_raid.

Anyway, when TX was planning a raid, she was called in as a consultant and was part of the raid. She writes about that in her second book, Triumph. Take a look here: goodreads.com/author/show/427437.Carolyn_Jessop

I know most people on this forum are interested in polygamy mainly as a forum to critisize Mormons but I think it’s a problem for anyone who realizes that the twelve tribes of Israel came from four different wives. And I can understand it as a sort of cure for barren women. There’s a lot of things in the Old Testament I really wonder at but I’m not ready to dismiss it as being replaced by the NT. There was a point to all what they did back then. But I still have a hard time understanding polygamy and your little revelation about how it holds back population growth doesn’t help!

One of the odd pieces of Carolyn Jessop’s story is that despite her years of suffering (after the escape she develop PTSD, post traumatic stress disorder), her oldest daughter went back to living with the FLDS. It’s so ironic–the main reason why Carolyn escaped in the first place was to save her daughter from a polygamous marriage. And her daughter had lived away from the FLDS and with her Mom in regular society for a couple of years before she returned. Like I said, I’m still trying to understand it but it’s not so simple.
I like the way in which you wrote this. Reminds me of when I used to say things about the Catholic Church, repeating what I had heard from others like what about the Dark Ages, the inquisitions etc. Then when my heart opened and I was ready to learn instead of parroting others I found that these things have reasons for happening. As you dig into them you start to see the reality of it in so many different ways. Satan tries to spin all of us and all of us can get caught up in it. We all do at times. It can be hard to search for truth when we have bias minds to start with. Its hard to just flush it out and be open. For me it led me to the Catholic Church and I responded with a yes I believe. This was 40 years into my life. Nothing I was told about it by others Parroting others was true. This was interesting to me, How could so many hate a Church they no nothing about? Most of what I see at this site regarding Mormonism I would say is correct. Hope you understand where I am coming from. You seem open in your own journey. Maybe I am wrong.
In Christ
 
I know most people on this forum are interested in polygamy mainly as a forum to critisize Mormons but I think it’s a problem for anyone who realizes that the twelve tribes of Israel came from four different wives. And I can understand it as a sort of cure for barren women. There’s a lot of things in the Old Testament I really wonder at but I’m not ready to dismiss it as being replaced by the NT. There was a point to all what they did back then. But I still have a hard time understanding polygamy and your little revelation about how it holds back population growth doesn’t help!
Over all of Christian history there have been millions of Christians who were/are aware that the 12 tribes are a result of polygamy and they had/have no problem seeing polygamy as a sin, something that misses the mark, something that was not in the beginning.🤷
 
Over all of Christian history there have been millions of Christians who were/are aware that the 12 tribes are a result of polygamy and they had/have no problem seeing polygamy as a sin, something that misses the mark, something that was not in the beginning.🤷
Really? Everyone who reads about Israel (the guy, not the country) assumes that God condoned Israel’s polygamy? How about all the other instances of polygamy in the OT? I could go along with that maybe if God hadn’t chosen top honors for Israel. And there’s never any rebuke for his plural wives. So I’m a little hesitant to make that jump. Really, either way it’s a little hard to figure out.

I’d also like to know, maybe from a rabbinical scholar, if, in their opinion, the law of Moses allowed for plural marriage. From my reading of the OT, it seems mum but if anything might allow for it.

Catholic-RCIA: I have no idea what you are talking about.
 
The FLDS were so twisted, you really ought to leave them out of any discussion of polygamy.

I’ve just finished reading Escape by Carolyn Jessop. She was raised as a faithful member of the FLDS community and married to Merril Jessop, a high ranking member of the FLDS. She writes about Warren Jeffs, her life and her eventual escape. She was the first FLDS woman to have only succeeded, e.g. being able to keep her children and stay out.

If anyone has any doubt about the FLDS or Warren Jeffs, rest assured he was a monster of the worse sort who turned the FLDS community into a degenerate cult of the worse kind. Carolyn Jessop details a non-stop stream of abuse, both physical and emotional of the woman and children even before Warren Jeffs. He just extended it to the men.

The FLDS was polygamous but that was just the way an evil man exerted his hold on an otherwise naive people. Their particular practice of it was so toxic I don’t think you can drew much conclusion.

At first I was skeptical because–well, you can find unhappy marriages under any system. Even if you consider her disgruntled and unhappy, she provides a lot of objective evidence of abuse that cannot be ignored. And IMHO, she’s a credible witness. It was shortly after her escape and meeting with the Utah attorney general that Utah seized their property and they fled both AZ and UT.
Yes, this is a very good book to reveal Jeffs & the FLDS. I came away from it with the distinct impression that the FLDS has institutionalized spousal abuse, child abuse, and pedophilia right along with polygamy.
I am no fan of Mormonism, but I certainly would NOT blame the activities of the FLDS on the Mormons. Twisting religious beliefs in order to forward your own sick agenda is a practice as old as time…at least, the time since the Fall.
Jeffs should be locked up forever, & so should any number of others in his satanically-inspired cult.:twocents:
I believe that this is something upon which the LDS and I can agree.
 
Soren1:

Carolyn Jessop actually wrote two books, one after her escape and it’s called…Escape. In her book she mentions a much earlier raid on the FLDS by the state of AZ. and how the mishandling of a sensitive and difficult situation hardened a polygamous people into their way of life. It made it much more difficult for the state to prosecute them for anything. You can read about it here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Short_Creek_raid.

Anyway, when TX was planning a raid, she was called in as a consultant and was part of the raid. She writes about that in her second book, Triumph. Take a look here: goodreads.com/author/show/427437.Carolyn_Jessop

I know most people on this forum are interested in polygamy mainly as a forum to critisize Mormons but I think it’s a problem for anyone who realizes that the twelve tribes of Israel came from four different wives. And I can understand it as a sort of cure for barren women. There’s a lot of things in the Old Testament I really wonder at but I’m not ready to dismiss it as being replaced by the NT. There was a point to all what they did back then. But I still have a hard time understanding polygamy and your little revelation about how it holds back population growth doesn’t help!

One of the odd pieces of Carolyn Jessop’s story is that despite her years of suffering (after the escape she develop PTSD, post traumatic stress disorder), her oldest daughter went back to living with the FLDS. It’s so ironic–the main reason why Carolyn escaped in the first place was to save her daughter from a polygamous marriage. And her daughter had lived away from the FLDS and with her Mom in regular society for a couple of years before she returned. Like I said, I’m still trying to understand it but it’s not so simple.
Thank you for this good information. I did not know about CJ’s 2nd book & will keep an eye out for it now that I do.
Yes, I found the story of her daughter to be both tragic & incomprehensible. I suppose that the poor girl had been brainwashed for so long, that she had developed something akin to Stockholm Syndrome. Perhaps one day, God willing, she will be able to find her way to a more healthy state of mind, & eventual freedom. Such is my prayer.:byzsoc:
 
Really? Everyone who reads about Israel (the guy, not the country) assumes that God condoned Israel’s polygamy? How about all the other instances of polygamy in the OT? I could go along with that maybe if God hadn’t chosen top honors for Israel. And there’s never any rebuke for his plural wives. So I’m a little hesitant to make that jump. Really, either way it’s a little hard to figure out.

I’d also like to know, maybe from a rabbinical scholar, if, in their opinion, the law of Moses allowed for plural marriage. From my reading of the OT, it seems mum but if anything might allow for it.

Catholic-RCIA: I have no idea what you are talking about.
As Jesus said “In the beginning it was not so”(speaking on marriage)
 
Gary,

Your post is hopefully, thought-provoking to the Mormons who come to read it.
Morning KathleenGee,

Hopefully my sister, hopefully. I understand how this could be very difficult to unwind when its constantly re-enforced by a moral model which accepts it.

We all live under some form of a moral model. Judaism, Catholics, Islam, and so forth, even those with no religion will revert to whats socially acceptable by their countrys laws. As we see in the US-West now, much of what is “legal” actually promotes negative behavior for the simple reason that it allowed it to live. Confusion with legal and moral create the illusion which could be, God only knows what. Building a boundry is a social/political realm which is a failure. It states, “You can behave this way, but only too this point” then its a crime. So your always playing catch-up with the thought-process and illusion. The thought was allowed to develope into, well, as we see here a real masterpiece.

Here we have a moral model developed through the various idealism of many faiths. All this is well and fine. However when your model is based on Christianity and the NT, its impossible you can translate “Love your neighbor as you Love yourself” into this behavior. I understand there are scripture verse’s which have projected this thought into a reality and then allowed transference to occur.

Love is always the message, responsible love and concern. If the behavior cannot fit this catagory then its a thought projected into an illusion, in this case a very disturbing one.

The lie is, that this behavior =LOVE. Thats the lie. And Love is the truth to defend. Innocence is also clearly spoken on in scripture with the, “Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world” Or the Lion and the Lamb verse’s. They are symbols of innocence and strength, and they are not in conflict with each other since innocence is strength and love.

This behavior should be outragous to any Catholic/Orthodox and higher denomination Protestants. Its in total conflict with everything you were taught, right from day one. Even if one has followed in Blind Faith, then there still would be a total conflict of soul occuring.

How one comes to accept this is the real marvel. Thats the teaching I would much like to hear. Thats also the lesson which mormans/LDS refuse to discuss here, and have continued to do so at least since I have been here. I wouldn’t want to discuss it if I were them either. However, this is related as a “higher learning” and falls into some mysterious mystic realm of this faith. You must be spoon-fed this knowledge to comprehend it, so I am told. Actually that translates into “Truth is you must be spoon-fed to slowly accept anything which goes against Gods law”.

What is God protecting with his commandments? He is protecting LOVE! Those are boundrys established to protect the truth. Christ expanded and made this as clear as possible.

So, we see the issue, Jeffs is merely the result, or more clearly, a symptom of the problem, not the problem.

Peace
 
Thank you for this good information. I did not know about CJ’s 2nd book & will keep an eye out for it now that I do.
Yes, I found the story of her daughter to be both tragic & incomprehensible. I suppose that the poor girl had been brainwashed for so long, that she had developed something akin to Stockholm Syndrome. Perhaps one day, God willing, she will be able to find her way to a more healthy state of mind, & eventual freedom. Such is my prayer.:byzsoc:
I’d like to read her second book too. She was careful to point out in Escape that Betty (her daughter) was always Merril’s favourite and she enjoyed a special status within the family. It’s Merril Jessop who is running the FLDS now that Jeffs is in jail.

I’ve never really heard of any group that practices plural marriage to the extent that the FLDS do. It seems (not sure) that just about every guy is in a plural marriage and that’s never going to work. The result of such a distorted pratice is “lost boys” and underage wives. There was an earlier post about from a guy who lived in Saudia Arabia and even though polygamy is practised there, he said it was rare. I don’t see how it could be otherwise.

What really galls me is how, at least in CJ’s book, the men would hold the woman’s “salvation” over their heads and tell them that they can’t get into heaven without their (the man’s) blessing. Even though it seemed to me that Merril Jessop is going straight to hell. No passing Go. No collecting $200. Just straight to hell. That’s a corruption of the Mormon doctrine, an insidious and subtle corruption used to spread evil. Very disturbing to faithful LDS guys like myself to see. In the mainstream LDS church, men are warned over and over again about the proper use of their priesthood and to avoid “unrighteous dominion” but it seems like in the FLDS culture, unrighteous dominion was a virture! They obviously ignored that part of the D&C.
 
Mormon women need to come to Catholic teachings on the Blessed Mother.

EWTN has an evening program for women, called ‘Women of Grace’. EWTN being the Catholic television station.

There is so much more our faith tradition offers women, besides how to make family scrapbooks, etc. Mary is the new Eve.

It is also coming out that those women who allowed their sons to be thrown out, and their daughters raped also need to be charged…that behavior goes against a mother’s instinct.
 
What really galls me is how, at least in CJ’s book, the men would hold the woman’s “salvation” over their heads and tell them that they can’t get into heaven without their (the man’s) blessing. Even though it seemed to me that Merril Jessop is going straight to hell. No passing Go. No collecting $200. Just straight to hell. That’s a corruption of the Mormon doctrine, an insidious and subtle corruption used to spread evil. Very disturbing to faithful LDS guys like myself to see. In the mainstream LDS church, men are warned over and over again about the proper use of their priesthood and to avoid “unrighteous dominion” but it seems like in the FLDS culture, unrighteous dominion was a virture! They obviously ignored that part of the D&C.
Yes, I think this is the most diabolical tactic. It seems to me, that it fosters an attitude of entitlement in men that is truly evil. And to claim that what they are saying & doing is inspired by God? More like inspired by satan.

Again, thank you for a most enlightening contribution to the discussion.
God bless.
 
Really? Everyone who reads about Israel (the guy, not the country) assumes that God condoned Israel’s polygamy? How about all the other instances of polygamy in the OT? I could go along with that maybe if God hadn’t chosen top honors for Israel. And there’s never any rebuke for his plural wives. So I’m a little hesitant to make that jump. Really, either way it’s a little hard to figure out.

I’d also like to know, maybe from a rabbinical scholar, if, in their opinion, the law of Moses allowed for plural marriage. From my reading of the OT, it seems mum but if anything might allow for it.
You might want to ask about slavery too.
 
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