Here are sources that provide the LDS view of these verses.
Mormons and their faith promoting rumors.
I agree that Christ established His Church, and that that Church is here today on the earth. There are actually many other churches that make the claim that they are the one Church Christ Himself founded, such as the Orthodox Church, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Seventh-day Adventist Church, etc. Quite frankly, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, SDA church, etc. all have as much a claim to being the “restored” Church established by Jesus Christ as Mormons do. Quite frankly, Mormonism really is not unique in that regard, and is one amongst many other “Restorationist” churches making that claim.
Ah yes, I have heard this many times, and interestingly, this is something I’ve only heard Mormons themselves say. Unfortunately it isn’t logical. If the Catholic Church isn’t the true Church, there are a number of other churches that trace their roots back to the original Apostles, prime among them the Orthodox Church. If for some reason the Catholic Church isn’t “The Church”, it would make sense to look at one of those churches (indeed, the Catholic Church itself recognizes the apostolic succession of these churches).
The Real Presence is beautiful. It is a major reason why I left Mormonism and returned to the Catholic faith. It is very interesting to me that all of the most ancient Christian churches, no matter where they are in the world, no matter what they may disagree on, all hold to the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist. The fact that Mormonism rejects this belief says to me that it isn’t a restoration of lost ancient beliefs. Perhaps you may enjoy these books on the Real Presence:
The Church has allowed the belief in limbo as a doctrinally-correct speculation. Some believe it, some don’t. What the Church teaches, as has been cited by another poster, is that there is enough reason to believe, based on what has been revealed, that infants that die without baptism go to Heaven. I believe that.
I believe you are referring to the following quote made by a Catholic linquistics professor, John M. Reiner, when he was in Salt Lake in the 1890’s
Hello Truth faith,
When I was in Catholic grade school in the 50's we were taught that a person who would normally go to heaven would go to limbo if he wasn't baptized.
From reading your post I thought this would be a good time to put in a plug for reincarnation. The whole concept of people spending eternity in hell, heaven, limbo, or on Kolob based on something they did/ didn't do/or believed/ during there short time on earth really doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Suppose there are two people both of which will attain the age of accountability tonight. One dies an hour before reaching accountability and one an hour afterwards. Why should they go to different places?
I can’t thank you enough for that source! As have so many others, I have heard that anecdotal “only two options” story many times, beginning in the 1960s. Maybe at some point I did read the source; if so it was so long ago, I haven’t remembered it.
I much appreciate your entire post, LivingWaters7.
Have Mormons stopped teaching that the Apostle John and three Nephite Apostles did not die? Did they abandon their responsibility?
And the modern Mormon Church has no Pastors or Evangelists. But for those who would say, the Mormon Church does have those, but they go by different names - Bishops and Seventies - to them I would say, Cardinals make just as good Apostles as Bishops make Pastors. The Church does not depend on TITLES, but on functioning. Apostles led, so did Elders/Bishops. If you want to model your Church after “the Church Christ established,” among other things you will need to place Apostles above prophets, not beneath them. And if you want “the same offices,” you have lost many, what are you to do? “So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers.” All are not found in the Mormon Church: “And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers…”
As a Mormon, do you truly believe they were “all” martyred? Do you truly believed apostle-trained bishops are so incompetent or wicked that they would abandon the apostles’ teachings when an apostle died? (You would benefit greatly from a reading of early Christian martyrs.) Do you truly believe that if there are no apostles, the Church crumbles? It would, were it based on apostles. But for Catholics, the chief cornerstone is Christ, not apostles, not prophets. And Christ himself is an apostle! And a prophet!
No, not because Rome was the center of secular power. Because two of the greatest Christian leaders of the time were there, and there was a large population of Jews living in Rome, as well as disenchanted people from other lands and faiths, who were ready to accept Christ.
(Allowing for the replacement of one who abandoned his post): The twelve Apostles called by Christ are not discontinued! They are Apostles forever. They are Apostles today.
One would think wrongly were one to so think. This is highly speculative. You objected to what you think is “a lack of clear guidance” on why the apostles should be discontinued. Is this speculation on your part intended to be an example of “clear guidance.”
Wow, what other Christian religions are you thinking of, that are farther from Catholic doctrines than Mormonism is!? I’m not asking for all of them, just seven or eight.
Right, a faith promoting rumor started by a Mormon promoting Mormonism.
Those are not the facts. They are not the facts of Christian history and they are not the facts of Mormon history. The claim that Mormons now make that Apostles are a requirement for authority was an invention of Brigham Young in his quest to take control of the Mormon Church upon the death of Joseph Smith.
This is a very important point, and something that I alluded to on another forum. A common refrain by Mormons is that they have all of the priesthood offices found in the New Testament Church, which thus bolsters their claim to be a restoration of that original Church. This claim is problematic for a number of reasons:
You know, if you read minds.
First, I did not argue that “cardinals do the same work as the apostles of old.” I wish you would read my post, and read it carefully, and post something relevant rather than knee-jerk clichéd accusations, and uninformed, false implications. If you want to pay attention, then I’d be happy to go in further detail regarding the similarity of the roles of apostles and cardinals, and the dissimilarity of the roles of pastors and bishops. It’s your decision.
Really? We need “some special inspiration” or “authorization” to ask if someone has seen Christ? Incredible! There may be some things “just too sacred to discuss,” but if a witness of Christ is one of them, then there are a dozen men in the New Testament who have violated that sanctity. I guess Jesus Christ did the same, since he testified of the Father! Maybe if you will set Christ straight on what a witness is, then maybe he could find a way to straighten out the apostles. But as for me and my house, we accept Christ’s testimony, the testimony of Christ’s Apostles, and until some legitimate evidence to the contrary is available, have no choice but to reject the testimonies of Smith’s apostles.
Except that the qualifications are clear and no one these days can qualify.
King James said:
Yes that’s the one, thank-you for posting the full version! My paraphrasing was atrocious!
Thank-you for your posts, they are very informative and I have started reading your blog too! Yes you are right, it does come down to whether or not there was indeed an apostasy which is why I quoted the talk by the Catholic professor. It makes sense! Obviously I wasn’t suggesting he believed Mormonism to be an option, of course not! He didn’t believe in an apostasy and so was Catholic (if there wasn’t an apostasy then the Catholic Church is the true church). I think some posters have misunderstood my use of the quote. Horton (I think) asked why not any others, why Catholicism or Mormonism and that quote along with what you have just said is the reason…it all comes down to the apostasy. If there was an apostasy, then a restoration would have been needed such as JS (like the quote mentions) and all Protestant churches woud be wrong alongside Catholicism. However if there wasn’t an apostasy (like quite clearly the professor believed there wasnt) then the only true church is the Catholic Church. I guess I’m struggling to decide if I believe there was an apostasy or not hence I’m looking into different details of the churches.In thinking about Mormonism vs. Catholicism, there are many differences. Whether we’re talking about the nature of God, the sacraments, how to receive eternal life, the Eucharist, the priesthood, the organization of the Church, etc., there are clear distinctions between the two. However, the foundational issue that must be resolved is whether or not there was an apostasy. Both the Catholic Church and the LDS church believe that Jesus Christ established a visible Church anciently. The question is, did that Church continue down through the ages to the present day, or did it at some point fail and was no longer found on the earth, and had to be restored?
If you’ve come down to Catholicism or Mormonism, then the fundamental dilemma that must be resolved is whether or not there was an apostasy. One can talk all day about whether the Book of Abraham is true, whether God was once a man, whether God has a spouse, whether infants go to limbo, whether the Church was responsible for the Inquisition, whether priests should be married, etc. However, none of it really matters until you can come to a conclusion on the apostasy.
This was what I wrestled with towards the end of my time as a Mormon. I loved going to church, the people were all great, great friends, I loved going to the temple, etc. I put the whole priesthood/temple ban of blacks on the shelf for a long time (I even asked the missionaries about it before I agreed to be baptized), but it was always nagging in the back of my head (perhaps for personal reasons, imagining what it would have been like for me going to church at a time when leaders said horrible things about my people to justify not ordaining us or allowing us to receive the higher ordinances necessary for eternal life).
After awhile, I realized that it all just came down to the apostasy. From my personal study of the Bible, as well as history, my own conclusion was that there simply was no total apostasy of Jesus Christ’s Church. None of the verses cited by those that believe that doctrine support a total loss of the Church from the earth. When I look at history, I see a Church that has been here on this earth since ancient times: the Catholic Church. I see the doctrines, I see the teachings, I see the faith of the people, and I see God’s faith in us, even when we fail Him (that includes the leadership, our very human leadership). The scriptural promises of the perpetuity and continuity of the Church are real, and an apostasy rejects those promises. The Church is the Kingdom of God, and nowhere is it said that that Kingdom would be taken away or hidden.
So, I quietly left and slowly returned to the Catholic Church. It was difficult, as I really enjoyed my time as a Mormon. I tried to remain, but I knew I couldn’t. I read all of those convoluted arguments supporting the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham, and things just got even more confusing. I prayed and read my scriptures, and God drew me back to the Catholic Church, the most Biblical faith there is.
So keep asking questions, and definitely keep posting here. Hold onto that feeling you have in relation to the Eucharist. I think for most, it is the Eucharist that draws us back ultimately. The Real Presence isn’t found in Mormonism (by their own admission as well).
When I have time I might post some of my thoughts on specific points re: Mormonism vs Catholicism.
You’ve confused me here, are you saying Catholics don’t believe in apostolic succession? Why then do you have Popes? I thought that’s was because of the belief in apostolic succession?