Mormonism

[Stephen168]

Stephen, Don’t you think discussing the term “create” is a good and fair beginning?

I was just looking for definitions first

 

[Janderich]

I was just looking for definitions first

As long as you don’t try make me an offender for a word, I’m fine with definitions. Granted the definitions I write may need some clarification as they are discussed. Also, I don’t want to get hung up on a Webster’s dictionary definition etc. I want to come to an understanding and see where we disagree.

omniscient - All knowing.
omnipotent - Unlimited power, though not to the point of impossibility.
exist - To be, to have life, independence, and the ability to progress.
eternal - Unique existence without beginning or end.
God - The father of the spirits of all humanity. The ruler of the universe as we know it.
eternities - Place where time has no application.
progress - To develop.
create - To organize, to form.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Right, however she is not a member of the Godhead. The Godhead has been defined as being the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Heavenly Mother (as well as other entities who have played/play important roles in salvation history), despite her role, is not a member of the Godhead.

Her non-membership in the godhead really makes no sense, since HF could not be god without her, without his wife he would not qualify for exaltation.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Her non-membership in the godhead really makes no sense, since HF could not be god without her, without his wife he would not qualify for exaltation.

Goddesses have a function to fulfill…god-enablers, seen not heard…cue Tammy Wynette.

 

[Jerusha]

Heavenly Mother was rejected for that very reason. It was a speculation which would have led to conclusions that were rejected by the leaders. Including the elevation of women. We have Mary, whom they denigrate. They have Eve, but it just didn’t jive with the rest.

 

[TexanKnight]

Thanks Lori. In many ways this view is consistent. However, it does ignore fundamental laws of nature. Do Catholic’s believe that God can break the laws of the universe? I believe God works within laws.

That is, in a nutshell, the difference between the True God and the LDS god. The True God created the universe, and is therefore not bound by laws as HE created those laws. The LDS god was once a sinful man who was later exalted and is there bound by natural laws.

 

[Telstar]

Thanks Lori. In many ways this view is consistent. However, it does ignore fundamental laws of nature. Do Catholic’s believe that God can break the laws of the universe? I believe God works within laws. Yes, he has the ability to use these laws in ways we do not understand but he still abides law. This does not diminish God in my eyes. It is simply fact. It does not mean he is not omnipotent, for to do otherwise would be impossible. I also find it ennobles the work that science is trying to accomplish.

God is not bound by natural laws or scientific laws to do anything He wants to do. He created those laws for the physical and spiritual worlds that He also created from nothing. We are subject to those laws because we are God’s creatures, and those laws were created for us to follow and be subject to. God doesn’t need any of those laws to follow because He is not a part of creation, He is the Almighty Creator that brought it all into existence. He is free to do anything He wishes because He’s a Benevolent God that doesn’t need to be reminded of what is right and wrong. He gives us free will to make our own choice between the two, but He can never do anything evil, so He doesn’t need to follow any laws. He is all good.

If God can’t do anything that would be considered to be against the natural or scientific laws, how do you explain the great miracles that Jesus performed just by speaking a word? “Lazarus, come forth!” Is that an example of God following the laws of nature, or is it something completely against all of the laws of science and nature? What about His own Resurrection and Ascension into Heaven? Could any other mortal man do that? Isn’t that also against the laws of nature?

That is, in a nutshell, the difference between the True God and the LDS god. The True God created the universe, and is therefore not bound by laws as HE created those laws. The LDS god was once a sinful man who was later exalted and is there bound by natural laws.

Exactly.

 

[Cat_Herder]

create - To organize, to form.

… but not (for a Mormon) to bring into existence from nothing, which is why the definition of God (for a Mormon) is as a “ruler” of the Universe but not as its Maker. That is the main place where the Mormon definition of God falls short of both the Bible and science.

Further explanation here.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Let’'s clear the air. Stop attacking me and my posts and stop trying to justify your behavior with my posts. If you choose to be uncharitable, which I feel you are, it’s your decision.

You should take a step back and look at what’s really going on inside you about your time as a Mormon. You attack their posts and their ideas with a zeal that is beyond the realm of just stating your beliefs. I am not being accusatory. I am simply stating what I see, which is that you are angry. The Mormons who visit is, unless they are breaking forum rules, have a right to be who and what they are and your anger isn’t going to stop them. Only love, as we have been told, will do that.

Where are the attacks on you and your posts, I don’t see anything like an attack in his response to you in this exchange???

 

[RebeccaJ]

The way I see it, Mormon posts in this thread are straight out proselyting. The Mormons are just taking advantage of those who defend them, thinking that those of us who know what they are doing will be silenced long enough to continue their missionary lessons. Don’t be fooled, or fools.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Thank you.

Latter-day Saints believe that we are created in God’s image. We believe that this is both physical and spiritual. God is embodied, therefore since we are in His image, our bodies are similar to His. Latter-day Saints do not believe that we were living on this earth before God created us.

On omniscience, perhaps this quote from Ostler’s boo I mentioned earlier will be helpful in understanding the Latter-day Saint view (which we readily acknowledge is not shared by traditional Christians):
**
Joseph Smith saw in this primordial story the truth that God confronts good and evil through direct experience. He interpreted these often overlooked scriptures to mean that God continues to learn from experiences forever and has always been engaged in this experiential learning process. Thus, even a person who is already divine has a reason to become mortal: to continue the process of learning through experience.

The idea that a divine person may learn through mortal experience something that cannot be learned in any other way also has biblical support:

Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in all things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of his people. For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succor them that are tempted. (Heb. 2:17–18; emphasis mine)

Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all that obey him. (Heb. 4:8–9)

These scriptures find an echo in Alma 7:12: “And he will take upon him their infirmities, that his bowels may be filled with mercy, according to the flesh, that he may know how to succor his people according to their infirmities.”

There is a type of perfection that is possible only through first-hand experience. Experiential knowledge is, by its very nature, gained only through experience itself. Though Christ was very God, yet he learned from the things that he suffered and was made perfect thereby. Elsewhere I have argued that Joseph Smith taught that there is an aspect of divine knowledge, experiential knowledge, that is inexhaustible and to which there is no end or intrinsic maxima.39 Thus, there is an infinite possibility of experiential knowledge open even to God.**

You should site where you are copying and pasting from, or just plain copying. Forum rules require it. Whether it is Blake Ostler, or a Mormon blog.

Jesus IS God, who lowered Himself, for us. All of the Bible, as Catholics understand, take this into account, first. Becoming Man is not why Jesus was perfect. Hebrews in no way conveys this. Knowledge does not perfect us, God does.

Hebrews conveys quite clearly, that Jesus is our High Priest forever, and shows what the attributes of the True High Priest are. These are human attributes AND divine attributes…God lowered Himself, but He did not cease to be God. Jesus was, fully human AND fully divine.

7
Rather, he emptied himself,
taking the form of a slave,
coming in human likeness;
and found human in appearance,
8
he humbled himself,
becoming obedient to death, even death on a cross.

Don’t confuse the emptying that Jesus did for us, as thinking that was His starting place. Jesus is God, and as such, has no beginning or end, has all knowledge and is all knowledge.

 

[LivingWaters7]

But this isn’t what Mormonism teaches.

“And now, verily I say unto you, I, the Lord, will not lay any sin to your charge; go your ways and sin no more; but unto that soul who sinneth shall the former sins return, saith the Lord your God.” - D&C 82:7

Yes, that is what The Church of Jesus Christ teaches. D&C 82:7 does not contradict what I stated. Instead, what it is teaching is what happens when we commit sins and whether we have truly repented of that sin (which includes confessing our sins to God (and to those in priesthood authority in certain cases) and forsaking that sin). Therefore, what I stated originally stands.

There is but One God. What you propose here is polytheistic.

I am not concerned with labels such as “polytheistic”, just as how I’m sure most traditional Christians that are told their belief in the Trinity is polytheistic by Jews and Muslims are not concerned either.

The opinion of one Jewish person doesn’t make it a belief, let alone a belief of what the Talmud is teaching. Further, LDS have a habit of cherry picking, and applying Mormon teaching to the teaching of other religions and cultures. Obscuring and changing the meaning of what is being taught to suit the purpose of Mormonism. I can’t say I trust what you have cherry picked here. I would need to see it in the context of Jewish teaching, NOT Mormon teaching.

It is okay if you do not trust it. I believe the quote speaks for itself.

 

[LivingWaters7]

You should site where you are copying and pasting from, or just plain copying. Forum rules require it. Whether it is Blake Ostler, or a Mormon blog.

Jesus IS God, who lowered Himself, for us. All of the Bible, as Catholics understand, take this into account, first. Becoming Man is not why Jesus was perfect. Hebrews in no way conveys this. Knowledge does not perfect us, God does.

Hebrews conveys quite clearly, that Jesus is our High Priest forever, and shows what the attributes of the True High Priest are. These are human attributes AND divine attributes…God lowered Himself, but He did not cease to be God. Jesus was, fully human AND fully divine.

7
Rather, he emptied himself,
taking the form of a slave,
coming in human likeness;
and found human in appearance,
8
he humbled himself,
becoming obedient to death, even death on a cross.

Don’t confuse the emptying that Jesus did for us, as thinking that was His starting place. Jesus is God, and as such, has no beginning or end, has all knowledge and is all knowledge.

Latter-day Saints do not believe that Jesus Christ emptying Himself “was His starting place”. Hebrews accords quite nicely with the doctrines on Christ of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

 

[LivingWaters7]

Heavenly Mother was rejected for that very reason. It was a speculation which would have led to conclusions that were rejected by the leaders. Including the elevation of women. We have Mary, whom they denigrate. They have Eve, but it just didn’t jive with the rest.

No, members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints most certainly do not denigrate Mary. While we do not hold to certain Marian dogmas held by the Catholic Church (and the Orthodox Church in certain cases), we do not denigrate her.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Latter-day Saints do not believe that Jesus Christ emptying Himself “was His starting place”. Hebrews accords quite nicely with the doctrines on Christ of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

You just went through a long trail of explanation that says exactly that, which does not in any way align to what Paul’s letter to the Hebrews teaches. Mormonism makes man the center, not God.

 

[RebeccaJ]

No, members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints most certainly do not denigrate Mary. While we do not hold to certain Marian dogmas held by the Catholic Church (and the Orthodox Church in certain cases), we do not denigrate her.

I agree with Jerusha. I remember clearly Mormons teaching that Mary was just an ordinary woman. Denying the virgin birth of Jesus. Guessing, or claiming as truth (depending on the Mormon) at God copulating with one of His own creations.

 

[Keith_B]

This thread started by asking a question what we thought about mormonism. Knowing what the truth is it’s an easy answer. Christianity was founded by Jesus (God) where mormonism was founded by lucifer. The truth is defined as what the overwhelming factual evidence supports. As shown in some of the previous posts, satan, lucifer, the devil, whatever you want to call him is a master of deception, who promotes confusion and contradictions. Humans have a weakness that can fall prey to those deceptions, without the graces that we get from the Catholic church. The church also teaches not to put ourselves in the near ocation of sin. Seeking out conversation with lucifer would be a sin. A group founded by lucifer means the supporters of that group are his agents. That’s a hard pill to swallow but it’s the truth.

 

[Janderich]

God is not bound by natural laws or scientific laws to do anything He wants to do. He created those laws for the physical and spiritual worlds that He also created from nothing. We are subject to those laws because we are God’s creatures, and those laws were created for us to follow and be subject to. God doesn’t need any of those laws to follow because He is not a part of creation, He is the Almighty Creator that brought it all into existence. He is free to do anything He wishes because He’s a Benevolent God that doesn’t need to be reminded of what is right and wrong. He gives us free will to make our own choice between the two, but He can never do anything evil, so He doesn’t need to follow any laws. He is all good.

If God can’t do anything that would be considered to be against the natural or scientific laws, how do you explain the great miracles that Jesus performed just by speaking a word? “Lazarus, come forth!” Is that an example of God following the laws of nature, or is it something completely against all of the laws of science and nature? What about His own Resurrection and Ascension into Heaven? Could any other mortal man do that? Isn’t that also against the laws of nature?

Exactly.

A miracle is a miracle because it can’t be explained by human understanding. When we see it everyday, or if we can explain it, we often don’t call it a miracle. For instance, the growth a plant, is it not a miracle? Yet most don’t bother to think of it as such because we see it regularly.

James E. Talmage a former apostle within the LDS church said it this way:

Miracles cannot be in contravention of natural law, but are wrought through the operation of laws not universally or commonly recognized. Gravitation is everywhere operative, but the local and special application of other agencies may appear to nullify it - as by muscular effort or mechanical impulse a stone is lifted from the ground, poised aloft, or sent hurtling through space. At every stage of the process, however, gravity is in full play, though its effect is modified by that of other and locally superior energy. (Jesus the Christ, p 139)

When Christ raised Lazarus from the dead, in ways unknown to us, he caused his spirit to re-enter his body. By the power of his priesthood, and through forces we cannot understand, a few simple words put into motion the process that would bring Lazarus back to life.

What of Christ’s resurrection? Of course no other man could accomplish what Christ did. For he received both human nature and divinity. He received his mortality from his mother and certain power over death from his Father. However, the entire process from Gethsemane to his Ascension was brought about through the use of the laws and powers which exist in the Universe. Completely unknown laws? Yes. Miraculous in every way? Yes. But free from law? No. Such a statement does not diminish what he did for us. It simply puts the matter in its proper place.

 

[truthsave]

A miracle is a miracle because it can’t be explained by human understanding. When we see it everyday, or if we can explain it, we often don’t call it a miracle. For instance, the growth a plant, is it not a miracle? Yet most don’t bother to think of it as such because we see it regularly.
Your saying is right in his limit but not in its heart.
If your son would be given for dead or if it is sure that it would die soon and then you pray for his life and all of the sudden he is ok like nothing happened I don’t think you would put this event in the same cathegory as ordinary every day miracle.
Ordinary every day unknown things are not called miracle.
But I know mormonism has an attidute in consciously.wanting to confuse the use of words.

James E. Talmage a former apostle within the LDS church said it this way:

When Christ raised Lazarus from the dead, in ways unknown to us, he caused his spirit to re-enter his body. By the power of his priesthood, and through forces we cannot understand, a few simple words put into motion the process that would bring Lazarus back to life.
The figure of Christ pictured like that seems very close to a magician using the right incantations.

What of Christ’s resurrection? Of course no other man could accomplish what Christ did. For he received both human nature and divinity. He received his mortality from his mother and certain ?power over death from his Father. However, the entire process from Gethsemane to his Ascension was brought about through the use of the laws and powers which exist in the Universe. Completely unknown laws? Yes. Miraculous in every way? Yes. But free from law? No. Such a statement does not diminish what he did for us. It simply puts the matter in its proper place.

Again playing with words. Why you have to do this?
In the contest that everything is within God will nothing can exist out of His Will and His Will is the law. So if you are saying this it is useless to make distinction between law and will.
When we talk about law it is better to make a distinction among human moral laws, phisics laws, or just don’t do any distinction if everything is God’s Will everything is under His law even the trasgression.
Even trasgressing His law it is under His law so it is not trasgressing.
This is mormonism.
In Christianity this point has a beautiful explication that I hope you will find out in your heart.

 

[Janderich]

Again playing with words. Why you have to do this?
In the contest that everything is within God will nothing can exist out of His Will and His Will is the law. So if you are saying this it is useless to make distinction between law and will.
When we talk about law it is better to make a distinction among human moral laws, phisics laws, or just don’t do any distinction if everything is God’s Will everything is under His law even the trasgression.
Even transgressing His law it is under His law so it is not transgressing.
This is mormonism.
In Christianity this point has a beautiful explication that I hope you will find out in your heart.

Truthsave, I’m not sure I understand the above statement. There are moral laws and there are physical laws. They each have there place. I believe Christ used both in his work and ministry.

What do you mean by saying that everything is under His law so it is not transgressing?