Mormons and eternal marriage

[PaulDupre]

The difficulty here is that the Mormons have a different definition of words like “divinity”.

To a Catholic, there is only one divine being - the One God who has always been God and has always existed as a family of three persons, Father Son and Holy Spirit.

To a Mormon, there are gods without number, and the Heavenly Father and Jesus are just two of those gods. And the Mormon gods were not always gods, but are formerly humans who became gods. In that sense, since they believe that Jesus is just one more of countless gods, they believe that Jesus is “divine” in the Mormon sense of the word. And Mormons do believe that Jesus died to pay the eternal price of their sins.

But a Catholic would not recognize the Catholic concept of divinity in the Mormon concept of Heavenly Father or Jesus.

The fact that nearly every religious term has a different meaning to a Mormon, makes it very difficult for Mormons and Christians to have meaningful discussions.

God bless us all,
Paul

 

[lukewarm]

I don’t know where you are getting your information but my wife was a mormon and I had mormon missionaries in my house on a weelkly basis.

They believe in the Heavenly Father but not in a Trinitarian theological manner. They believe that one day they will attain godhood through eternal progression and have dominion over their creation.

I don’t want to argue over it, but it’s clearly in their holy books as well as all over thier site, they definitely believe in the divinity of Jesus. I agree they don’t abide by the Trinitarian formula, but they do believe Jesus is a god therefore divine. They also believe Jesus is God’s only begotten Son and the savior of the world. Are you confusing Mormon’s with Jehovas Witnesses?

 

[PattyPryor]

I don’t want to argue over it, but it’s clearly in their holy books as well as all over thier site, they definitely believe in the divinity of Jesus. I agree they don’t abide by the Trinitarian formula, but they do believe Jesus is a god therefore divine. They also believe Jesus is God’s only begotten Son and the savior of the world. Are you confusing Mormon’s with Jehovas Witnesses?

They don’t believe Jesus is a God. Not one bit. I had this argument with missionaries. I said don’t u pray to jesus and they sad no we pray to God. Jesus was the Son of God yes but like so many terms like Bishop, priest, sacrement. it is a same word with different meaning.

Paul I just want clarafication. Am I right on this?

 

[Armyof1Faith]

One of the big deals in Mormonism is to be sealed for eternity and then be reunited again in the afterlife as husband and wife. Doesn’t Jesus say in Matthew that none will be married in heaven?

Maybe I am interpreting this wrong but Matthew 22:29-30 says:

29Jesus replied, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

Just a thought

**
The Book of Mormon, their doctrines, and the KJV or just any Christian bible for that matter, contradict eachother completely if you research that faith. That is why they do not openly express them up front at your door, or in public let alone at all, and this is why most of them are uneducated on the doctrines of the Mormon church.
By offering what people want to hear, they recieve dozens of converts on their missions.
It has been taught for thousands of years that Jesus promised that there would be no marriage in heaven other than that of Jesus and His bride, Us. But the Mormon faith promises that as well as an opportunity to become a God, and that you can be saved through works, which, if you look at Eph 2: 8-9 is not what Jesus taught. **

 

[lukewarm]

They don’t believe Jesus is a God. Not one bit. I had this argument with missionaries. I said don’t u pray to jesus and they sad no we pray to God. Jesus was the Son of God yes but like so many terms like Bishop, priest, sacrement. it is a same word with different meaning.

Paul I just want clarafication. Am I right on this?

From LDS.ORG

“Jesus Christ
Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God the Father in the flesh. He was the Creator, He is our Savior, and He will be our Judge. Under the direction of our Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ created the earth. Through His suffering in the Garden of Gethsemane and by giving His life on the cross—that is, by performing the Atonement—Jesus Christ saves us from our sins as we follow Him. Through His Resurrection, Jesus Christ saves us from physical death. Because He overcame death, we will all be given the gift of resurrection.”

Godhead
The Church’s first article of faith states, “We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.” These three beings make up the Godhead. They preside over this world and all other creations of our Father in Heaven.

Now again I agree it isn’t Trinitarian or in line with what we believe, but to say Mormon’s don’t believe Jesus is divine or the son of god, or the savior is wrong. That isn’t to say I agree with it or it’s what we believe in terms of the Trinity and Jesus Godhood.

 

[alanjeddy]

I don’t want to argue over it, but it’s clearly in their holy books as well as all over thier site, they definitely believe in the divinity of Jesus. I agree they don’t abide by the Trinitarian formula, but they do believe Jesus is a god therefore divine. They also believe Jesus is God’s only begotten Son and the savior of the world. Are you confusing Mormon’s with Jehovas Witnesses?

I say to you they believe in a polytheistic system of gods and after you die and go to heaven you advance through what they call eternal progression and become like god. So you and I and the milkman can become like god and govern our own world, all of this transpiring on a celestial level.

I lived with a mormon and my brother in law is a mormon and they do not consider Jesus anything more than a new Adam, They consider everyone devine and it is called eternal progression. So within the context of this mormon belief everyone has the potential to achieve devine godhead. They consider every mormon with the same divinity and potential to be like God. Does that remind you of someone. " You can eat the apple, it’s not a sin, you can be like God"

Where Eastern non Christians believe in reincarnation to achieve enlightenment and the subsequent soul becoming one with God, the mormons have taken this hypothesis and preach that on a celestial level the soul encounters an eternal progression, (after a singular incarnation of the soul on earth,) of knowledge culminating in Godhood. So I am telling you the Mormon devinition of divinety is all inclusive, to you and to me and does not refer to only Jesus.

 

[truthsilence]

You’re absolutely right. The definitions mean something different to a mormon than they do to the rest of us.

I’m just saying, if you tried to tell any Mormon I know, that they don’t believe Jesus is the Son of God, or that they don’t believe He is divine, they’d tell you you are dead wrong and they wouldn’t want to listen to another thing you had to say. They also believe he is the Savior and Redeemer (of this world).

Again, yes, it all means something entirely different and I think many Mormon’s would even recognize that, after a brief elaboration. As Paul said, it makes for difficult discussion. But the words are there (son of god, divine redeemer, savior, etc) so you can’t tell them that they’re not.

 

[RebeccaJ]

From LDS.ORG

“Jesus Christ
Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God the Father in the flesh. He was the Creator, He is our Savior, and He will be our Judge. Under the direction of our Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ created the earth. Through His suffering in the Garden of Gethsemane and by giving His life on the cross—that is, by performing the Atonement—Jesus Christ saves us from our sins as we follow Him. Through His Resurrection, Jesus Christ saves us from physical death. Because He overcame death, we will all be given the gift of resurrection.”

Godhead
The Church’s first article of faith states, “We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.” These three beings make up the Godhead. They preside over this world and all other creations of our Father in Heaven.

Now again I agree it isn’t Trinitarian or in line with what we believe, but to say Mormon’s don’t believe Jesus is divine or the son of god, or the savior is wrong. That isn’t to say I agree with it or it’s what we believe in terms of the Trinity and Jesus Godhood.

Do not confuse what mormons say with what they believe. As Paul has already pointed out, they use the same words but they have altered the meaning of those words, sometimes very significantly, and to the point where it no longer has any Christian connotation whatsoever.

Mormons believe in a pre-existence where all spirits are already created, and that the spirit of Jesus was the first to be created. He was NOT divine then, and His creation of the earth is described by mormons as done via the power of God the Father (a separate being, not One God).

The creation itself was not as Christians believe. Mormons believe that the earth was created out of existing materials. Jesus did not create these materials, He only used them.

They believe that God is literally the father of Jesus, ie, that God the Father had sexual relationship with Mary. Therefore, they believe that Jesus was half-man, half-God – a demigod. The Incarnation of Jesus, as God, is wholly rejected by mormons as an apostate teaching of Catholicism.

They believe that Jesus’ resurrection and ascension to heaven is the exact time/place that He was exalted to Godhood. They believe that Jesus’ obedience to God the Father is what “earned” Him this status. Mormons believe that if they are obedient to God, that they too will earn the status of god.

They believe that God the Father went through this exact same process. That at one time He was a man, on another planet, with another god who he worshiped, and through obedience to that god, he was exalted.

 

[talter]

Wow I go away on vacation and I missed a whole bunch going on in the discussion. Looks like it evolved into (as most Mormon related conversations usually do) all the other heretical thing they believe. So a couple of observations I’ve made while catching up.

1. We as Catholics believe that the family unit is not dissolved upon death merely perfected. Meaning while marriage is irrelevant we become married/adopted/joined with into God’s family. At which point when I say RebeccaJ my sister and PaulDupre my brother it will mean more in heaven than it does here. At the same time I continue to recognize and appreciate my biological mother/father/brother/sister/cousin/etc as such in heaven. Kind of like marriage here. I didn’t lose my family when I got married I gained a larger one (in-laws and children). The same goes for heaven (of which there is only one btw, many rooms in the mansion but still only one mansion) I don’t lose my earthly family, unless of course they didn’t make it to heaven, I gain an infinitely greater one with all my brothers and sisters in Christ.
2. As for the whole point about Adam and Eve supposed to be married for eternity, that’s just ridiculous even by LDS thinking. Adam and Eve according to LDS theology states that they were spirit children of God. And CHOSE to come to Earth to become human and proceed according to God’s "Plan of Salvation[sup]TM[/sup] ". God knew what would happen in Eden. So did Adam and Eve, they were righteous beings in the pre-existence who agreed with Jesus’ plan of salvation. Thus they "knew’ they were to eat the fruit and thus “fall”. So they were never to be married for eternity even by LDS thinking because the fall was all part of the plan. So the temple restores an eternal marriage that wasn’t eternal because of the fall, and the fall which was supposed to happen in the first place as per “The Plan [sup]TM[/sup]” is just well … the circular logic just makes my head hurt.
3. A couple of statements were made about the fullness of the gospel. Can’t disagree there. The LDS did/do not have the fullness of the Gospel. They use the KJV without the deutercanonicals. So yes their Bible is lacking some “plain and precious” truths .
4. Mormons are most closely related to henotheism as opposed to pure polytheism. Henotheism is a form of polytheism I just wanted to point it out. Consider it the word of the day.

hen·o·the·ism: n. Belief in one god without denying the existence of others.

1. Mormon bashing, Anti-mormon (not seen in this post but in others and relevant to my point anti-catholic and catholic bashing) have been thrown out as being directed at our LDS brothers and sisters (didn’t see any obvious female LDS posters but who knows who’s lurking out there … hi honey ). How is it that our skin has gotten so thin. How is it bashing to provide a counter point to or argument to a given statement. In all discussions there is a pro and and con (anti) side. How is it that “anti” has gotten such a bad rap. Yes I disagree with you! That is my point which is ANTI/contrary/different than yours. That’s why we are having this discussion in the first place. Now as far as bashing Mormons. Yes that is wrong verbally or otherwise (though sometimes a knock up side the head like my Nana would give does seem to be in order sometimes) however bashing the LDS/Mormon (and the RC) church have at it I say. Attack the argument/premise/point of view, attack the foundation of the argument/premise/point of view (the church in our discussions here). Do not attack the man (or woman). When someone tells me that they think the church is the “Whore of Babylon” I don’t take it personally or consider it RC bashing. Yes it’s Anti-Catholic but that is the point of their argument. Yes I am Anti-Mormon as I disagree with 99.9% of what the foundation of the church teaches just as you good Mormons by your very membership in the COJCOLDS are Anti-Catholic. Get over it. By the way I am also Anti-Fish, Anti-Humus, Anti-oppression, Anti-socialism, Anti-yogurt…

 

[PaulDupre]

They don’t believe Jesus is a God. Not one bit. I had this argument with missionaries. I said don’t u pray to jesus and they sad no we pray to God. Jesus was the Son of God yes but like so many terms like Bishop, priest, sacrement. it is a same word with different meaning.

Paul I just want clarafication. Am I right on this?

Patty, you are both right and wrong. The Mormons don’t believe that Jesus is “God”, by which Mormons mean that god whom they call the “Heavenly Father”, who is the god they worship. They do believe, however, that Jesus has become “a god” - one of countless millions of gods - who will have his own kingdom as the Heavenly Father has a kingdom. They don’t worship Jesus, because he is not their god.

Christians, by contrast, believe that there is only one God, and that this One God exists as a family of three persons. Jesus, as one of these three persons of the Trinity, is fully “God”, not merely “a god”.

This is the central difference between Mormonism and Christianity. All other differences flow from this one fundamental difference.

God love you,
Paul

 

[lukewarm]

Now I don’t believe in Mormonism because of proofs like the Book of Abraham translation (which is clearly a proof of fraud IMO) and the fact that the BofM is a proven fraud.

BUT I will say that Mormonism isn’t nearly as whacky as people make it out to be. In modern times based on what we know of the universe the Mormon idea of progression makes more sense than the Catholic and Christian Dogma of us humans about 50,000 years from apehood are the sole center of the universe. The idea that God Himself came down in human form to save us, would make one think that we are basically the end all be all of the universe in God’s eye. But in reality with all the galaxies and stars out there which are infinite, you have to believe that there are endless planets similar to ours. If that’s the case did Jesus come down and save them too? What does that do wo our “unique” relationship to the all knowing God of the universe? The Mormon idea of progression makes sense to me the more I think about what we know of the universe. The Catholic/Christian/Jewish/Islamic idea of God and His relationship to mankind seems more ancient, more… Sun revolves around the Earth mentality.

I don’t accept Joseph Smith as a prophet but you have to think that his idea of endless worlds, and mankinds progression was ahead of its time and actually more in line with what we currently know of the Universe.

 

[alanjeddy]

Now I don’t believe in Mormonism because of proofs like the Book of Abraham translation (which is clearly a proof of fraud IMO) and the fact that the BofM is a proven fraud.

BUT I will say that Mormonism isn’t nearly as whacky as people make it out to be. In modern times based on what we know of the universe the Mormon idea of progression makes more sense than the Catholic and Christian Dogma of us humans about 50,000 years from apehood are the sole center of the universe. The idea that God Himself came down in human form to save us, would make one think that we are basically the end all be all of the universe in God’s eye. But in reality with all the galaxies and stars out there which are infinite, you have to believe that there are endless planets similar to ours. If that’s the case did Jesus come down and save them too? What does that do wo our “unique” relationship to the all knowing God of the universe? The Mormon idea of progression makes sense to me the more I think about what we know of the universe. The Catholic/Christian/Jewish/Islamic idea of God and His relationship to mankind seems more ancient, more… Sun revolves around the Earth mentality.

I don’t accept Joseph Smith as a prophet but you have to think that his idea of endless worlds, and mankinds progression was ahead of its time and actually more in line with what we currently know of the Universe.

Your hypothesis is interesting, however you are making some presuppositions. Can we say with certainty that distant galaxies supporting life forms as we define life even had a need for a Redeemer? Could it be possible that original sin never came into play? If that were true how would God reveal himself to these people.

How can we really grasp the immutable reality of the Infinite with the strictures of our finite mind? If God created the universe out of nothing how can we try to trivialise or limit His transcendant fecundity?

There is nothing earth shattering about the mormon hypothesis of eternal celestial progression to godhood. They borrowed the eastern non-Christian concepts of re-incarnation where the human souls go through repeated earthly incarnations until the perfection of the soul. They simply put this in a non corporal celestial dimension where the soul becomes enlightened unto godhead.

I will say one thing, Joseph Smith had a very fertile mind.

 

[lukewarm]

Your hypothesis is interesting, however you are making some presuppositions. Can we say with certainty that distant galaxies supporting life forms as we define life even had a need for a Redeemer? Could it be possible that original sin never came into play? If that were true how would God reveal himself to these people.

Based on the amount of planets out there and unique stars I have to assume there is intelligent life out there. I’m not an x-files seen UFO’s conspiracist or anything I’m just using logic. If life evolved in our solar system you have to assume (and I admit it is an assumption on my part) that there is intelligent life all over the universe. Having concluded that I have to assume that God would give free will to all inhabitants of the physical universe. Why would he create infinite robots and only choose us to give free will? It doesn’t add up. Any race that is given free will, will sin IMO, once they sin they need a redeemer.

How can we really grasp the immutable reality of the Infinite with the strictures of our finite mind? If God created the universe out of nothing how can we try to trivialise or limit His transcendant fecundity?

True really this is just a 10,000 foot view. If you look at the world through a 1st century Christians eyes the idea that Jesus is God and savior of the world makes sense when you realize they had no concept that the Earth was nothing but a mite speck in the grand scheme of the universe. Once you start to think about how large the universe is, you start to think about how exactly God’s unique relationship with man fits in.

There is nothing earth shattering about the mormon hypothesis of eternal celestial progression to godhood. They borrowed the eastern non-Christian concepts of re-incarnation where the human souls go through repeated earthly incarnations until the perfection of the soul. They simply put this in a non corporal celestial dimension where the soul becomes enlightened unto godhead.

I will say one thing, Joseph Smith had a very fertile mind.

I agree I don’t believe Mormonism but if you think with a more open mind in terms of what we know of the universe their theology isn’t nearly as whacky as it first appears. I think it’s only so whacky because we have thousands of years of our own presuppositions and ingrained beliefs to judge it against.

 

[valient_Lucy]

Remember that Zerinus is an adolescent, about 16 years old. When I was 16 I knew everything too.

Funny how I became more ignorant as I grew older.

God bless you,
Paul

I think it was Socrates who said, “The only thing I know is how much I don’t know.”

But yeah, it’s funny how it is at the times when we think we know everything that we discover how we actually know nothing.

 

[PaulDupre]

Based on the amount of planets out there and unique stars I have to assume there is intelligent life out there. I’m not an x-files seen UFO’s conspiracist or anything I’m just using logic. If life evolved in our solar system you have to assume (and I admit it is an assumption on my part) that there is intelligent life all over the universe. Having concluded that I have to assume that God would give free will to all inhabitants of the physical universe. Why would he create infinite robots and only choose us to give free will? It doesn’t add up. Any race that is given free will, will sin IMO, once they sin they need a redeemer.

My son (27 years old who has undergone a powerful conversion to Jesus and is currently in RCIA) and I discuss this from time to time. The only thing we are certain of is that Jesus is the one and only Savior of those that God the Father calls His children. Now, how that principle would play out if there was/is life on other planets is fun to speculate about, but it is not necessary to do so. When we get to heaven, all of this information will be available to us. In fact, it will seem so obvious that we may marvel that we didn’t figure it out while we were mortal. We have a great time speculating, though.

True really this is just a 10,000 foot view. If you look at the world through a 1st century Christians eyes the idea that Jesus is God and savior of the world makes sense when you realize they had no concept that the Earth was nothing but a mite speck in the grand scheme of the universe.

Not necessarily. As my son and I are reading through the OT together, we are frequently surprised at how much the ancient prophets seemed to know about the true structure of the solar system and the universe in general.

Once you start to think about how large the universe is, you start to think about how exactly God’s unique relationship with man fits in.

True, but we haven’t enough data at this time to reach accurate conclusions.

I wish every father could have the experience of studying through the bible with his son. It is really the best thing ever!

Happy new year to all!
Paul

 

[PaulDupre]

I agree I don’t believe Mormonism but if you think with a more open mind in terms of what we know of the universe their theology isn’t nearly as whacky as it first appears. I think it’s only so whacky because we have thousands of years of our own presuppositions and ingrained beliefs to judge it against.

Those presuppositions and ingrained beliefs are from God’s revelation to us through His Church - the bible!

God bless and happy new year!
Paul

 

[alanjeddy]

Based on the amount of planets out there and unique stars I have to assume there is intelligent life out there. I’m not an x-files seen UFO’s conspiracist or anything I’m just using logic. If life evolved in our solar system you have to assume (and I admit it is an assumption on my part) that there is intelligent life all over the universe. Having concluded that I have to assume that God would give free will to all inhabitants of the physical universe. Why would he create infinite robots and only choose us to give free will? It doesn’t add up. Any race that is given free will, will sin IMO, once they sin they need a redeemer.

True really this is just a 10,000 foot view. If you look at the world through a 1st century Christians eyes the idea that Jesus is God and savior of the world makes sense when you realize they had no concept that the Earth was nothing but a mite speck in the grand scheme of the universe. Once you start to think about how large the universe is, you start to think about how exactly God’s unique relationship with man fits in.

I agree I don’t believe Mormonism but if you think with a more open mind in terms of what we know of the universe their theology isn’t nearly as whacky as it first appears. I think it’s only so whacky because we have thousands of years of our own presuppositions and ingrained beliefs to judge it against.

I think we have both brought up some interesting points. and I enjoy your (name removed by moderator)ut very much. We could probably engage in some long discussions on this topic and most likely many others. Thank you for opening my mind to other possibilities even if we are not always in agreement with one another.

Have a happy and healthy new year and God bless.

 

[PaulDupre]

At this point I think this discussion has descended into a Mormon bashfest so I’ll just bow out. I enjoy this forum, really I do, but sometimes you all go way over the line of what’s respectful.

Oh, great. You throw down a challenge about the meaning of the Book of Abraham, then you compare us Catholics to vampires, then when we counter with solid arguments you turn tail and run. Typical of Mormons. Every time the Christian begins to get the upper hand in a debate, the Mormon will cry “persecution” and run.

So I take it you are not going to enlighten us as to why the Mormon Heavenly Father needs someone to set a good example for him and inspire him?

I’m truly disappointed, rmcmullan. Not surprised, just disappointed.

Paul

 

[truthsilence]

Paul,

How wonderful about your son. That is more than awesome.

God bless,
Tami

 

[lukewarm]

I think we have both brought up some interesting points. and I enjoy your (name removed by moderator)ut very much. We could probably engage in some long discussions on this topic and most likely many others. Thank you for opening my mind to other possibilities even if we are not always in agreement with one another.

Have a happy and healthy new year and God bless.

You too, and thank you!