Mormons and the Nicene creed

[BartBurk]

I mean two separate personages, in the same way that you and I are two separate personages. Joseph Smith saw them as two separate personages.

So are they of the same nature?

I am not going to interpret the Nicene Creed. You tell me what you think it means, and I will tell you whether I agree with it or not.

zerinus

Nope. I asked you first. Spell out what you think it means since you are the one who disagrees with it.

 

[zerinus]

So are they of the same nature?

I don’t know what “nature” means. They are of the same order of beings, in the same way that you and I are of the same order of beings.

Nope. I asked you first. Spell out what you think it means since you are the one who disagrees with it.

We disagree with the historical definition of the Trinity–three persons combined into one God. We believe that they are three distinct personages.

zerinus

 

[BartBurk]

I don’t know what “nature” means. They are of the same order of beings, in the same way that you and I are of the same order of beings.

We disagree with the historical definition of the Trinity–three persons combined into one God. We believe that they are three distinct personages.

zerinus

But you believe these three persons in the Godhead have the same nature, correct?

 

[zerinus]

But you believe these three persons in the Godhead have the same nature, correct?

I don’t know what “nature” means. God has not revealed to me what His “nature” is. They are of the same order of beings, but two separate personages; in the same way that you and I are of the same order of beings, but two separate personages.

zerinus

 

[PaulDupre]

There is only one God. God’s nature is unique. It is God’s nature to exist as a trinity of three persons. God has chosen to reveal the identities of these three persons as Father, Son and Holy Spirit (or comforter).

These titles are given for our benefit, to help us understand the relationships between the persons and their relationship to us.

Paul

 

[zerinus]

There is only one God. God’s nature is unique. It is God’s nature to exist as a trinity of three persons. God has chosen to reveal the identities of these three persons as Father, Son and Holy Spirit (or comforter).

These titles are given for our benefit, to help us understand the relationships between the persons and their relationship to us.

Paul

That is not the God that the Bible acquaints us with. That is a strange monster with three heads and one body.

zerinus

 

[PaulDupre]

Then I guess there’s a monster in the Book of Mormon too.

Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God (The Book of Mormon, Alma 11:44)

Paul

 

[BartBurk]

I don’t know what “nature” means. God has not revealed to me what His “nature” is. They are of the same order of beings, but two separate personages; in the same way that you and I are of the same order of beings, but two separate personages.

zerinus

Then do you believe that Father and Son, having the same order of being, have always had the same order of being?

 

[BartBurk]

That is not the God that the Bible acquaints us with. That is a strange monster with three heads and one body.

zerinus

I think you may just be quibbling, especially if you believe that Father and Son have always had the same order of being.

 

[ryanoneil]

I mean two separate personages, in the same way that you and I are two separate personages. Joseph Smith saw them as two separate personages.

zerinus

Please don’t dodge this yes or no question, like you dodged my earlier questions.

Do you believe the following verse means that Christ created everything?

Colossians 1:15-17 - Jesus is called the “first-born of all creation. For in Him were all things created . . . He is before all and by Him all things were created.”

Peace,

Ryan

 

[zerinus]

Please don’t dodge this yes or no question, like you dodged my earlier questions.

Do you believe the following verse means that Christ created everything?

Colossians 1:15-17 - Jesus is called the “first-born of all creation. For in Him were all things created . . . He is before all and by Him all things were created.”

Peace,

Ryan

Yes, it means that He created everything under the direction of the Father.

zerinus

 

[ryanoneil]

Yes, it means that He created everything under the direction of the Father.

zerinus

I realize that we have different beliefs, so please help me understand where you are coming from.

Is Yahweh (Jehovah) the name for Jesus or His Father?

Isaiah 44:24: “This is what the Lord says, your Redeemer who formed you in the womb: ‘I am the Lord, who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself.’”

Is this Jesus talking here or His Father?

Peace,

Ryan

 

[zerinus]

I realize that we have different beliefs, so please help me understand where you are coming from.

Is Yahweh (Jehovah) the name for Jesus or His Father?

Isaiah 44:24: “This is what the Lord says, your Redeemer who formed you in the womb: ‘I am the Lord, who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself.’”

Is this Jesus talking here or His Father?

Peace,

Ryan

We think that it generally refers to Jesus; but it can also refer to the Father. It means God, which is what the Father also is.

zerinus

 

[BartBurk]

Then I guess there’s a monster in the Book of Mormon too.

Paul

Exactly. The question I still want Zerinius to aswer is when did Jesus become God. Was he always God or did he progress from a non-God to God at some point. I have a feeling our friend Zerinius believes that Father and Son were both always God.

 

[ryanoneil]

We think that it generally refers to Jesus; but it can also refer to the Father. It means God, which is what the Father also is.

zerinus

Here is the thing that confuses me. It has to refer to one or the other, if they are distinct persons. Because the scripture says ‘I am the Lord, who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself.’

Which distinct person is being referred to in Isaiah 44:24 according to Mormons?

Peace,

Ryan

 

[BartBurk]

Here is the thing that confuses me. It has to refer to one or the other, if they are distinct persons. Because the scripture says ‘I am the Lord, who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself.’

Which distinct person is being referred to in Isaiah 44:24 according to Mormons?

Peace,

Ryan

Don’t we Catholics believe the Father and the Son are distinct persons? It is obvious in the Old Testament that terms for the Father and the Son are used interchangeably.

 

[zerinus]

Here is the thing that confuses me. It has to refer to one or the other, if they are distinct persons. Because the scripture says ‘I am the Lord, who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself.’

Which distinct person is being referred to in Isaiah 44:24 according to Mormons?

Peace,

Ryan

Isaiah is confusing. It is poetry, and with poetic license all kinds of thins can happen. Verbal accuracy is not the primary concern. Jehovah in the Old Testament most of the time refers to Jesus; but on rare occasions, especially in the poetic parts, it can also refer to the Father.

zerinus

 

[ryanoneil]

Don’t we Catholics believe the Father and the Son are distinct persons? It is obvious in the Old Testament that terms for the Father and the Son are used interchangeably.

Thank you. I should have probably said seperate persons. I’m I correct in thinking that Mormons believe God the Father and Jesus are seperate individual persons?

If so, Colossians 1:15-17 and Isaiah 44:24 have to refer only to Jesus, by Mormon standards, or they contradict each another. By Catholic standards their is no contadiction, because the Father and the Son are one.

Maybe this was a bad comparison on my part. I always assumed Mormons believed Jehovah was God the Father.

I’ll have to make another post.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[ryanoneil]

We believe that the Father created or begat the spirits of all men in the pre-existence long before the creation of this earth. The Son was the agent in the hand of the Father in creating all other things.

The Father and the Son are one in purpose, mind, and will; but they are two separate beings.

Nothing. We believe in a “Trinity” of three separate beings; which is not the Trinity of orthodox Christendom.

zerinus

I still don’t understand how Mormons can say the Father and the Son created all other things as separate beings, in light of Isaiah 44:24 ‘I am the Lord, who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself.’

It would be great if someone could answer this. If not, fine. The Trinity makes sense to me and I’m fine with that.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[cazayoux]

"cazayoux:

In a previous post you equated ‘The Father’ and ‘The Holy Spirit’.

I did not.

It was from your article… in your explanation of a verse of scripture.

“Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven” (Matthew 16:17)

This is very straightforward in that Jesus says his Father in heaven revealed this to Simon.

Your text reads.

In other words, he had gained a testimony of the Holy Ghost that Jesus was the Son of God.

Did Simon have something revealed (revelation) to him by the Father or the Holy Spirit? … or are they the same?

Your explanation of the verse leads me to believe that you think the Father and the Holy Spirit are the same.

michel