Mormons and the 'sacrament'

[tkdnick]

leschornmom:

I have never heard of this and I would be very interested in learning about any thing new…Do you have any links or recomended readings about the “Didache”. I will not look things up on line any more because I have been sent to to many anti sites…anti-mormon, anti-catholic, anti-protestant. You get the idea. I prefer to get the info right from the source.

There is a set of three books called Faith Of The Early Fathers by William A. Jurgens that I have heard are EXCELLENT descriptions of the beliefs of people living during the times of the 1st-5th centuries. I have not yet read them, however, I have all three in my stack to read. As far as the Didache. I have yet to see a book that is JUST the Didache. It is always included in a book with other early Christian writings. If there is a Catholic bookstore around you, I am sure they would have something. I have yet to find a place to buy it online that I know is an accurate translation.

 

[tkdnick]

tkdnick:

There is a set of three books called Faith Of The Early Fathers by William A. Jurgens that I have heard are EXCELLENT descriptions of the beliefs of people living during the times of the 1st-5th centuries. I have not yet read them, however, I have all three in my stack to read. As far as the Didache. I have yet to see a book that is JUST the Didache. It is always included in a book with other early Christian writings. If there is a Catholic bookstore around you, I am sure they would have something. I have yet to find a place to buy it online that I know is an accurate translation.

Hey! First time I’ve ever quoted myself in a post! Guess my response to your earlier question was already answered several times. Maybe I should read everything before making a new post.

 

[tkdnick]

tkdnick, Leschorndad is my husband though I did have to laugh when you thought he was catholic. Not because of you but because he used to be catholic. He converted to the LDS church when he was 17 (almost 10 yrs ago) When we first met he was VERY ANTI but through the years he has softened. I love him he is a sweety. I didn’t even know that he had started posting here until he asked me how to do the quotes. I can assure you that he was not taught the correct catholic doctrine while growing up and I can also assure you that any of his questions are as sincere as mine are.

HEY! This is post 200 for me! YAY!

I must have my posters confused! Sorry! I have been in dialogue on here with several LDS people and one of them has a husband who is Catholic. I did not know the history on leschorndad though…interesting little tidbit!

Well I can assure you that should you or your husband have honest/sincere questions regarding Catholic teaching/beliefs, that I will answer as best I can AND as charitably as possible. And if I do not know the answer, I will definitely find it. While there are many people here who will do the same…sadly, I cannot make the same assurance for all.

 

[PaulDupre]

tkdnick:

There is a set of three books called Faith Of The Early Fathers by William A. Jurgens that I have heard are EXCELLENT descriptions of the beliefs of people living during the times of the 1st-5th centuries. I have not yet read them, however, I have all three in my stack to read. As far as the Didache. I have yet to see a book that is JUST the Didache. It is always included in a book with other early Christian writings. If there is a Catholic bookstore around you, I am sure they would have something. I have yet to find a place to buy it online that I know is an accurate translation.

I just read a great book - The Mass of the Early Christians by Mike Aquilina. It is a brief study, based entirely on the Early Church Fathers, of the way the earliest Christians (Catholics) worshipped. It is short and very easy to read, and contains lots of passages from the ECFs, including the Didache.

It is available from Catholic Answers, St. Joseph Communications, or Amazon.com

Paul

 

[tkdnick]

PaulDupre:

I just read a great book - The Mass of the Early Christians by Mike Aquilina. It is a brief study, based entirely on the Early Church Fathers, of the way the earliest Christians (Catholics) worshipped. It is short and very easy to read, and contains lots of passages from the ECFs, including the Didache.

It is available from Catholic Answers, St. Joseph Communications, or Amazon.com

Paul

I’ve got that book at home. haven’t had a chance to read it yet, but it looks pretty good.

 

[leschornmom]

If it’s not getting off the subject could ou guys tell me a little about the Didache. Is it part of your communion… To be honest I’ve never even heard of it.

tdNick, BJColbert is the LDS with the catholic husband. She is very sweet and often speaks from her heart. She is the mother of 6 and grandmother of 16…She’s my kind of lady!!!
Unfortunately she is trying to decide whether or not to continue posting on this sight sh has been attacked on more than one occasion and I think that she has lost the will to fight as well. It’s so sad that she feels she has to fight with other christians.

 

[tkdnick]

leschornmom:

If it’s not getting off the subject could ou guys tell me a little about the Didache. Is it part of your communion… To be honest I’ve never even heard of it.

tdNick, BJColbert is the LDS with the catholic husband. She is very sweet and often speaks from her heart. She is the mother of 6 and grandmother of 16…She’s my kind of lady!!!
Unfortunately she is trying to decide whether or not to continue posting on this sight sh has been attacked on more than one occasion and I think that she has lost the will to fight as well. It’s so sad that she feels she has to fight with other christians.

It’s not off the subject at all! In order to truly understand the Eucharist (communion) we need to look at how people have seen the Eucharist throughout history. This is from memory of hearing it on Catholic Radio a while ago, so it could be a little off: If I remember right the Didache is the oldest written information we have regarding the Mass. I think that is what it is. I also believe that it was written around 150 ad. I’m almost 100% sure that it discusses the Mass as was celebrated at that time. So it’s a good look at how early Christians saw the Eucharist and Mass as a whole.

Ah yes! BJ! I didn’t realize she had such a large family! I have posted on several threads that she has been on, and sadly several people have responded in a very negative way. I can’t say for sure that she personally has been attacked, but I know there are some who have posted VERY negative responses to the beliefs that she holds. Sad that we can’t be charitable in our discussions.

 

[leschornmom]

tkdnick:

I have yet to find a place to buy it online that I know is an accurate translation.

That is my concern. We have a “Christian” bookstore in town but it doesnt sell any thing on the LDS or the Catholics…well not anything that either of us would want anyone else to read.
I’ll see if I can find that book that you suggested though. Thank you so much.

PS some one suggested that I read the Devince(spelling?) Code if I wanted to learn about Catholics. So I boutght it at SAM’s. Don’t worry, I got about done with the intro and realized what it was. I took it back and bought Dr. Phil’s Family First Bookinstead… and I got a little money back too.

 

[tkdnick]

leschornmom:

PS some one suggested that I read the Devince(spelling?) Code if I wanted to learn about Catholics. So I boutght it at SAM’s. Don’t worry, I got about done with the intro and realized what it was. I took it back and bought Dr. Phil’s Family First Bookinstead… and I got a little money back too.

I have not read that book, but obviously it has 2 very opposite, very strong reviews. Either all for it or all against it. What is sad is that it is a fictional book that has now been touted as actual historical fact by many. When the reality is that it is a FICTIONAL novel! They’re even making a movie about with Tom Hanks playing the lead character.

 

[PaulDupre]

leschornmom:

If it’s not getting off the subject could ou guys tell me a little about the Didache. Is it part of your communion… To be honest I’ve never even heard of it.

Here is a link to The Didache:
newadvent.org/fathers/0714.htm

The Didache is one of the oldest Christians writings in existence today. Some scholars date it at 60 AD, while others date it as late as 120 AD. It was used extensively for several hundred years as a guide to Christian life and worship in the Catholic Church. Many of the Early Church Fathers quoted often from the Didache.

Catholics value the Didache because it is one of many 1st and 2nd century documents showing that the mass of the earliest Christians was substantially the same as the mass celebrated by the Catholic Church today. These documents also show that the earliest Christians had the same doctrines, moral standards etc taught by the Catholic Church today.

Paul

 

[Chris-WA]

leschornmom:

If it’s not getting off the subject could ou guys tell me a little about the Didache. Is it part of your communion… To be honest I’ve never even heard of it.

There were many documents written within the church for its instruction and to combat heresies as early as mid-way through the first century. Some of the Early Church Fathers actually knew the Apostles personally and became disciples. The Didache is the earlies known “Christian manual” which among other things describes the proper conduct of the mass.

The most important issue between Catholics and Mormons is the “Great Apostacy.” If the Mormons are right about the apostacy, then their church is indeed the one true church. If they are wrong, then their church has no basis for existence. It’s really that simple. In order to accept that the Great Apostacy actually happened, you have to believe that the church was completely corrupted and all authority was lost very early on in the church’s life. That is why these early documents are so important. They show us what the earliest Christians believed and practiced. They give us insight into what was really going on in the midst of the terrible persecution of the church in its first 300 years.

 

[leschornmom]

Chris-WA:

The most important issue between Catholics and Mormons is the “Great Apostacy.” If the Mormons are right about the apostacy, then their church is indeed the one true church. If they are wrong, then their church has no basis for existence. It’s really that simple. In order to accept that the Great Apostacy actually happened, you have to believe that the church was completely corrupted and all authority was lost very early on in the church’s life. .

THAT IS VERY TRUE! Our entire faith is based on the belief that after Christ died none of the desciples carried on the correct teachings of Christ. (Well a couple did but that didn’t last very long) That is why I am interested in your church. I don’t think that your entire church is apostate there are too many faithful people in it. So Ive come to this conclusion in my mind…Either the Catholic Church is the true Church that Christ set down on this Earth durring this life time OR It is yet another splinter of Christianity (granted probably the first) that formed after the apostosy and it is my Church that is true.

BEFORE YOU JUMP ON ME with all of your “your chuch is wrong” statements, know this. I am devout in my faith I am LDS and have no plans to change at this point. If I ever come to believe that your church really is the one that Christ set on the earth I will change in a heart beat…just as I hope that if you ever found truth else where you would go to it.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE no anti mormon “stuff” (for lack of a better term). I only want Catholic teaching and in this thread it needs to be on the sacrement(LDS) or the Eucharist.

 

[StubbleSpark]

leschornmom:

BEFORE YOU JUMP ON ME with all of your “your chuch is wrong” statements, know this. I am devout in my faith I am LDS and have no plans to change at this point. If I ever come to believe that your church really is the one that Christ set on the earth I will change in a heart beat…just as I hope that if you ever found truth else where you would go to it.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE no anti mormon “stuff” (for lack of a better term). I only want Catholic teaching and in this thread it needs to be on the sacrement(LDS) or the Eucharist.

I think what Leschornmom is trying to say, is that she does not need us to be so obvious connecting dots and fleshing out contradictions. If any exist, it should be up to her to get to the bottom of.

But I do think the term “anti” is being thrown around a little too loosely here. Typically, when we use “anti” we refer to a type of bigotted reaction not based in reason. Because of the nature of this site, a lot of people do not think twice about comparing fundamental differences in faith. Merely comparing is not bad – so long as their are fairly logical reasons to support your conclusions, it is really kind of hard to fault you.

The “anti” comes when sweeping remarks are made without proof or with “evidence” you (or someone else) deliberately altered to fit your point. Also, not listening (or reading) counter arguments and just going on to other criticisms can be interpreted as being desparate and low.

But comparisons in and of themselves are not bad. We can compare the Judeo-Christian God with Buddha or we can compare Protestant and Catholic views on justification or we can compare the concept of faith for Muslims and for us. There is nothing wrong with this, but sometimes being too deliberate can infuriate the less initiated. And as you can tell, I think we all have some sort of similar experiences along those lines.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Hello all;

I haven’t posted for a while, but it is certainly refreshing to read a thread like this one, where differences can be discussed in a civil manner, with respect shown to all. I am enjoying the discussion comparing LDS Sacrament to the Eucharist. I have the following questions to ask of any LDS persons willing to respond:

(1) How often do you participate in the sacrament that your church recognizes?
(2) Is there a liturgy like at a catholic mass, or is the ceremony a simple distribution of bread and water? If it is a liturgy, is there a consecration or blessing of the bread and water? Does it vary from service to service or is it always the same?
(3) Do you celebrate the sacrament in your churches or is it something that is reserved for your temple?
(4) Do you invite non-LDS members to participate or is the taking of sacrament reserved only to LDS members in good standing? and
(5) Is there any occasion where an LDS member should not take part in the sacrament? (Similar to situations where a Catholic would not participate in the Eucharist if he or she were not in a state of grace?)

I would be happy to respond to any similar questions directed to me about the Eucharist, to the extent I am able to provide the information.

-Peace

 

[leschornmom]

Robert I hope I was able to answer your questions I have asked pretty all much of mine.

quote=Robert in SD How often do you participate in the sacrament that your church recognizes?
[/quote]

We participate weekly just as you do.

quote=Robert in SD Is there a liturgy like at a catholic mass, or is the ceremony a simple distribution of bread and water? If it is a liturgy, is there a consecration or blessing of the bread and water? Does it vary from service to service or is it always the same?
[/quote]

It is the same “ceremony” every week consisting of a prayer found in the Book of Mormon. Moroni 4:3 & 5:2. I’m sorry I dont know how to do a link. but you can easily find it on lds.org. Our version seems a lot more simple than yours and it’s not so much a ceremony a prayer said every week. We believe that the bread and water are concecrated (blessed by God him-self) but, we do it in rememberance of the blood and body. We do not believe that it actually becomes the blood and body of Christ.

quote=Robert in SD Do you celebrate the sacrament in your churches or is it something that is reserved for your temple?
[/quote]

We partake of sacrament in our sacrament mettings that are held in our church every Sunday.

quote=Robert in SD Do you invite non-LDS members to participate or is the taking of sacrament reserved only to LDS members in good standing? and
(5) Is there any occasion where an LDS member should not take part in the sacrament? (Similar to situations where a Catholic would not participate in the Eucharist if he or she were not in a state of grace?)
[/quote]

I thought I should answer these two together. As a general rule most people, member or non, can partake of our sacrament. We mainly are left up to our own consciences. However, there are some cases when a grave sin is confessed to the bishop (we don’t have confession regularly like you do, we go to them when we feel that we need to) that person may be asked not to take the sacrament for a given period of time. For instance, my husband and I lived together for a few weeks before we were married. We were disfellowshiped and asked not to take of the sacrement for a few months. We also were given special assignments and had to meet with the bishop regularly for a while.(That was almost 8 yrs ago)

 

[StubbleSpark]

leschornmom:

However, there are some cases when a grave sin is confessed to the bishop (we don’t have confession regularly like you do, we go to them when we feel that we need to) )

We only have to go to confession once a year. But, as a bit of a “confession junkie” I like to go once a week (I have been known to skip a week, though). As a former Baptist, I sometimes have trouble understanding why some Catholics are so timid about confession.

CONFESSION ROCKS!! (guitar riff: diddly deeeerrrrn!)

 

[jimmy]

StubbleSpark:

We only have to go to confession once a year. But, as a bit of a “confession junkie” I like to go once a week (I have been known to skip a week, though). As a former Baptist, I sometimes have trouble understanding why some Catholics are so timid about confession.

CONFESSION ROCKS!! (guitar riff: diddly deeeerrrrn!)

Although you only have to go once a year, you are much better off going as often as possible so that you can have a clear conscience for communion.

Its pretty tough to admit to someone that you have done wrong. Its also tough to admit the sins that others sometimes don’t know about. Telling someone the sins you are ashamed of or embarrased of is pretty tough to do.

 

[leschornmom]

Here’s a question: Why do you guys tiink it’s important to confess? I mean we ask God for forgiveness for our sins daily. We only go to the bishop if the sin is large enough that we might be denied a temple recomend. (permission to enter the temple)

 

[moira]

I know my friend said she hasn’t received the sacrament in a year because she drinks coffee and caffenated soda. This seems a little harsh. And surely not sinful.

 

[jimmy]

Here’s a question: Why do you guys tiink it’s important to confess? I mean we ask God for forgiveness for our sins daily. We only go to the bishop if the sin is large enough that we might be denied a temple recomend. (permission to enter the temple)

Confession of sins is important for several reasons.

First, it is very therapuetic. Telling someone your sins is a good way to get rid of your guilt of sins and to move on.

Second, the preist can give you advise on how to quit your sins and to become more like Christ.

Third, because we were commanded to by Christ.

Fourth, when you go to confession and actually tell someone else your sins you are actually making a move to do Gods will and making an attempt to follow him. If you just say a prayer asking forgiveness it is not the same thing. It isn’t as much of a move to ask forgiveness.