Mormons and the 'sacrament'

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Mormon teaching on abortion and birth control used to match Catholic teaching exactly. The Mormon church changed their doctrine on both. The Catholic church has not changed it’s doctrine on either. Which is right? If Mormonism is right then an unchanging God changed his mind.
 
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Tmaque:
Mormon teaching on abortion and birth control used to match Catholic teaching exactly. The Mormon church changed their doctrine on both. The Catholic church has not changed it’s doctrine on either. Which is right? If Mormonism is right then an unchanging God changed his mind.
Mormons don’t believe in an unchanging God. They believe in eternal progression.
 
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leschornmom:
Chris, I am so sorry I completely forgot to read that…I was just checking some posts before I started lunch. I will read it while my boys are napping and get back to you at some point tonight:)
Hey there leschornmom. You never got back to me. Hope everything is o.k. Congrats on the news about your new blessing. We are expecting #5 in March.
 
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tkdnick:
Mormons don’t believe in an unchanging God. They believe in eternal progression.
What does changing official church doctrine regarding morals have to do with eternal progression? What you are saying is that we really don’t know what is right or wrong because God can change his mind about anything. Maybe homosexual marriages in the temple will be the norm in 50 years. It’s certainly a possibility by the standard you’re trying to set.

Another question…how can an unchanging, eternal God progress? A thing is either perfect or it isn’t. If God continues to progress he cannot be perfect. What does an omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent God progress toward?? He IS the end result of all we seek. He CANNOT progress if he is perfect!
 
SORRY…I think I might have caused some confusion…I am Catholic. I hold the exact beliefs of the Catholic Church of an unchanging God who is all powerful, all knowing, etc. I was merely pointing out the LDS belief in God. In no way do I agree with that belief!
What does changing official church doctrine regarding morals have to do with eternal progression? What you are saying is that we really don’t know what is right or wrong because God can change his mind about anything. Maybe homosexual marriages in the temple will be the norm in 50 years. It’s certainly a possibility by the standard you’re trying to set.
LDS believe that God was originally a man on another planet. He progressed through his life on that planet and was elevated to the level of a god by his god. He continually progresses to “higher” perfection and knowledge. The more children of his that become gods of their own, the higher he is elevated.
Another question…how can an unchanging, eternal God progress? A thing is either perfect or it isn’t. If God continues to progress he cannot be perfect. What does an omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent God progress toward?? He IS the end result of all we seek. He CANNOT progress if he is perfect!
AMEN!!! That’s what I believe! That’s what’s found in the Bible, but not what the LDS church teaches.
 
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Chris-WA:
Hey there leschornmom. You never got back to me. Hope everything is o.k. Congrats on the news about your new blessing. We are expecting #5 in March.
You know we kinda moved off this topic all together. We originally started talking about Eucharist and now look at all the things we’re talking about. Since studying the Catholic faith more and understanding it better, I have come to wonder how anyone could doubt the truth found in John 6 about the Eucharist. I don’t think it could have been said any clearer than this.
 
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StubbleSpark:
My experiences with Mormons are growing and one thing I have noticed is how much the idea of Catholicism being evil is just a foregone conclusion to them and it is accepted as common knowledge that everyone, even Catholics, must accept.

I commonly have to put up with people saying things like, “Homosexuality was called the ‘monks disease’ and was widely practiced in monasteries.”

“Catholics hate sex so much they invented a special sheet that can be placed between lovers so they do not have to touch.” Still not sure about the historicity of that one (the sheet, not sex. I know we like sex.)

I also have to bear rude interruptions. Like when I am giving a public presentation on the persecution of the faithful in Communist regimes, one person said, “It’s just like the Spanish Inquisition.”

Sigh! Sadly, I have lost the will to fight. Defend your faith and face ridicule for being a brainwashed puppet who does not understand history or theology or the nature of God. Counter with a few questions of my own and it is immediately, “Hey, I think you need to look into your heart and ask yourself why you are persecuting us!” Now I just let lies wash over me and offer it up. I hate being a minority…

As far as the Holy Eucharist is concerned, you might want to bring up the fact that THIS IS THE YEAR OF THE EUCHARIST!! :bounce: :clapping: :dancing: YAY! And then maybe point out that if you really want to understand Catholics, you have to go the source of all our worship. Read the new encylcical by JPII!

But also expect her to read between the lines. 2 Nephi 6:18 “And I will feed them that oppress thee (that’s us), with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood as with sweet wine…” I think the Mormons already have a ready made symbolic interpretation of our non-symbolic sacrament…

Code:
I can't believe that Mormons have told you they believe the above about Catholics.
As a Mormon, I have never heard any of the things you describe above as what we think of the Catholic Church. I have been taught to have respect and tolerance of all churches and never have I heard anything so disrespectful of the Catholic Church said by a Mormon.
I have heard it said by people who hate the Catholic Church, but they were not Mormons. Just as I have found in some of these forums certain people have said terrible things that they believe to be Mormon doctrine. If a Mormon said such things to you they were not practising their faith and if it were known they said such things they would surely be chastised.
I don’t know why you would want to read behind the lines in the Nephi verse and think it referred to the Catholic church? Whoever told you that?
 
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moira:
I know my friend said she hasn’t received the sacrament in a year because she drinks coffee and caffenated soda. This seems a little harsh. And surely not sinful.
Code:
That is unbelievable!  I know many Mormons who drink caffienated soda, and it does not keep them from going to the Temple or taking the sacrament.

  It is suggested by the Word of Wisdom that we not partake of certain things, but as for being a sin of the extent your friend is making of it, I have never heard of such a thing.  If these things were so sinful, I am sure at least half of the Mormon church members would not be worthy to take the sacrament.  
  As far as the points on abortion being just a little blip on the moniter of sin for Mormons, it is not true.  There are some instances where a woman can be forgiven for this sin, but it is based on understanding of the law and individual circumstances.
  As for judgements of sinfulness, all are judged according to their knowledge of right or wrong.  If you had never been taught or had not understood properly the principle you would not be judged as harshly as a person who understood perfectly and then chose to break the law.  All have their own free agency, to choose and they will be judged according to their choices.  Drinking coffee as your friend does is just one of many (habits) to be overcome that may be bad for her health, gossiping would surely be considered worse as it hurts other people,and each thing is taken one by one and worked on as we progress through our lives.  No one is perfect except Jesus.
The Sacrament is taken to renew baptismal covenants and to remember the Sacrifice Jesus made for us upon the cross.  It is an individual's choice whether they feel they are worthy to partake.  One week they may be feeling worthy and another week they may have had a disagreement with a neighbor, or any number of things that may make them feel unworthy.
Your friend is judging herself too harshly, and should keep trying to improve, but never think that because she slipped from her goal  one week that she is unworthy forever.  Her worthiness is in her own mind.  No one knows her sins, or her level of repentance from one week to the next.  Repentance is an ongoing constant thing. Drinking coffee may keep her from a Temple recommend, but there are many good Mormons who do not have Temple recommends.  
That is just one of the goals we strive for, and even that does not mean we have reached perfection, it only means we are at the current time of the interview, living the principles of the gospel to the best of our ability. 
  When I rejoined the church after 20 years.  I had to give up some habits that I had acquired outside of the church.  One being drinking wine and alchohol and caffienated drinks, I just said to myself, Jesus suffered and died on the cross for me, how can I say that sacrificing wine is so difficult.  It helped that I love Jesus and would sacrifice for him in such a small way.  When you compare his sacrifice for us, then giving up alchohol is a minor thing in comparison, but it was a large thing for me.  I am still struggling with Diet Pepsi and Coke. But, I know it is the best thing for my health to give it up.  The fact that I occasionally drink a diet Pepsi does not keep me from taking the Sacrament. I do not feel it is a sin, but just a bad habit, to work on overcoming.
 
The “Word of Wisdom” is an interesting read. I would think especially for todays LDS.

It states to use wine at their sacrament meetings, which is what the early Mormons did. That was changed to water, what is used today.

Smith stated his followers were to use strong drinks to wash their bodies with. “And again, strong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies.” So do Mormons use booze to wash with like Smith said to???

Smith also said, “Every herb in season thereof, and every fruit in the season thereof…” So do Mormons only use fruit and herbs only when they are in season. Do Mormons only eat, say, apples in the fall?

And how about meat? Smith said Mormons should use meat “only in times of winter, or of cold or famine.” How many Mormons stick to this one?

Now the one I find most interesting, “tobacco is not for the body, neither for the belly, and is not good for man, but is an herb for bruises and all sick cattle, to be used with judgement and skill.” I haven’t seen too many Mormons putting tobacco on their bruises lately!

A person would think Utah alcohol and tobacco sales would be through the roof if Mormons were all following the “Word of Wisdom”. 😉
 
Just as I said, if all Mormons were perfect, no one would be taking the sacrament. We overindulge just as other people do. Just because we know better doesn’t mean we are all strong enough to adhere to the things we know.
I have an easier time giving up alcohol than using meat sparingly. I watched two persons I loved die from alcholism at very young ages, neither of them were Mormon. One was my father who was athiest, but from Methodist-Presbyterian background.
I am sure that the same medications used in biblical times have been perfected and scientists have discovered new and different ways of medicating. If we were still using the same remedies as were known before 1940 we would still be dying of blood poisoning from stepping on nails, and before penicillin was discovered people died from boils.
The word of wisdom was not meant to tell people not to use doctors and new medicines of the future. One of the reasons, was because early Mormon men were using spitoons and using tobacco in church. It was disgusting and not very Christlike.
God wants us to always be trying to improve our lives, and I for one think not smoking or drinking is a great improvement in my well-being.
I think you would agree we should not indulge in things that are not good for our bodies, but not many people can follow the health suggestions given by doctors. I know I have a difficult time limiting my food intake(I love to eat). I think that is almost as bad as smoking or drinking alchohol (maybe worse) Except growing up as the child of an alcholic was pretty bad, so I don’t think my overeating could effect my children as much as alchoholism.
 
BJ Colbert:
That is unbelievable! I know many Mormons who drink caffienated soda, and it does not keep them from going to the Temple or taking the sacrament.
That’s true in the USA. Hot caffiene will keep you out of the temple, cold caffiene is ok. I served an LDS mission in South Korea. Drinking Coke or Pepsi will disqualify you from getting a temple recommend in that country. I found such inconsistency incredibly disturbing. But, at least in Korea there is no inconsistency regarding the temperature of your caffiene and access to the temple.
 
BJ Colbert said:
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I can’t believe that Mormons have told you they believe the above about Catholics.
As a Mormon, I have never heard any of the things you describe above as what we think of the Catholic Church. I have been taught to have respect and tolerance of all churches and never have I heard anything so disrespectful of the Catholic Church said by a Mormon.
I have heard it said by people who hate the Catholic Church, but they were not Mormons. Just as I have found in some of these forums certain people have said terrible things that they believe to be Mormon doctrine. If a Mormon said such things to you they were not practising their faith and if it were known they said such things they would surely be chastised.
I don’t know why you would want to read behind the lines in the Nephi verse and think it referred to the Catholic church? Whoever told you that?

Let me put it another way, BJ. If the Catholic Church is NOT, as the very Book of Mormon states “the Great and Abominable Church of the Devil,” what legitimacy could the Mormon church possibly hold on to? Like all the other Protestant churches, it would lose its raison d’etre.

FACT: No other Church can claim sole responsibility for having collected, compiled, and declared as Divinely inspired those writings which are now called the Holy Bible.

In my copy of the Book of Mormon, there are numerous references to the church that compiled and approved that Sacred Book and NONE paint a compassionate, kind, or even disinterested picture. “Church of the Devil” “False Church” “Great and Abominable Church” and “harlot.” Sorry if I am reading these passages wrong, but it is difficult for a devout Catholic to get all bubbly over them.

Our Church is also called the “whore of all the earth.” This is nothing new and in fact at the same time Joseph Smith was forming the Mormon church, the Seventh Day Adventists were also in pre-natal form. An important part of their doctrine is the belief that the Church is the Whore of Babylon and the pope is the anti-Christ. At the same time, the anti-Catholic political party (the “Nativists”) were gaining in influence in the East (Joseph Smith’s home), and Catholic politicians were being greeted with the burning crosses of the KKK.

Anti-Catholicism was then, as it is now, “in the air.” People take it for granted that the Church is totally evil and seldom if ever can this reasoning be challenged. Ironically, because we Catholics are so different from everyone else we are accused of being “brainwashed” automatons who should be ignored.

I say this not to elicit sympathy for my Church. We will never disappear from this Earth so long as time flows. The only reason I point it out is to show the inherent contradiction between preaching a lovey-dovey acceptance while demonizing all that we hold dear. No doctrine that accepts a single pen stroke of the teachings of original Christianity can afford this luxury.
 
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