Mormons baptizing our Pope posthumously

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I’m going to be baptized by proxy after I die. So are my husband and children. My dad and stepmother converted when I was a kid and raised all their children Mormon but me (I was raised by my United Methodist grandparents). It doesn’t offend me because I’ll be dead already and it won’t matter and it will also give my brother a level of comfort. As for the Pope, well, he’s just another in a long line of Popes who have been baptized…IIRC, that started when one of the prophets had a dream in which several historical figures came to him asking to be baptized, including Popes, Martin Luther and several signers of the Declaration of Independence. I fail to see the difference between that and, for example, my grandfather’s name being entered into the local syangogue’s Book of Life even though he wasn’t Jewish or masses being said for the soul of my grandmother even though she wasn’t Catholic (she’s also been baptized by proxy…she’s having one interesting afterlife, I tell you).
 
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Tmaque:
To me it’s an empty sacrament, why worry about it? I just don’t understand what all the furor is about.

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That pretty much sums up my feelings on the matter - it’s a waste of time, but knock yourselves out…
 
Answers to questions and comments to and about BDawg:
  1. I apologize for accusing ex for being a piece of work, since he didn’t actually start the thread. However, I still cannot understand why a “cradle Catholic” would take offense at such a harmless religious practice. Like I said, when my Catholic relatives perform religious acts on my behalf, I appreciate the sentiment, even though I don’t necessarily agree with the practice. No skin off my nose.
  2. I hang around these boards because I found it doing a google search, and discovered that there was a “non-Catholic Religions” forum where my religion is frequently misrepresented and denigrated. So I figured it might be a kick to hang around and see if some of these people could be set straight about a few things. You will notice that I never post anything outside of the non-Catholic Religions forum, and never on any thread that doesn’t start out with someone complaining about the Mormons. If non-Catholics aren’t welcome here, just let me know, and I will vamoose.
  3. Ex-mo, you are wrong that Judas only prayed for the dead soldiers. The text says they had a sin offering done for them. Many commentators have noted that Paul’s language in 1 Cor. 15:29-30 seems to be based on that of 2 Maccabees, and the rationale given for baptism for the dead is the same as that given for Judas’ sacrifice.
  4. Nevertheless, I realize the text of 1 Cor. 15:29-30 is ambiguous regarding what Paul thought of the practice of baptism for the dead. I was merely pointing out (for people who didn’t know) that some ancient Christians seem to have done something similar, so the Mormon practice is not quite as strange as some might think.
BDawg
 
BDawg,

I appreciate you coming to these boards and giving good examples of the LDS viewpoint. You and BJ help as well as the other posters help banter both sides of these issues so I can appreciate my wife’s viewpoints and better understand them. I’ve learned to be able to be more objectionable from this Non-Religious forum since info on CA and the LDS website is tilted to their viewpoints. I have taken info from here and discussed it w/ the wife so that we can understand each other since we talk the same language but have totally different understandings of simple terminology. Thanks for taking the time to be here.
 
Thanks, Blue. I really try not to be an intruder, although sometimes I get a little mad at some of the things people say here. BTW, I think you commented on children bearing their testimonies. Personally, I think that is ok, as long as some adult isn’t there telling them what to say. Some people actually do that (even though the Church leaders have repeatedly requested they knock it off). Anyway, that bugs the crud out of me.

One more comment, though. I did get upset by ex-mo’s wife’s comments that started the thread. Why? Not because she thinks Mormon practices are stupid. Why should I care? However, she went beyond that to call for public action against the Mormons. I call this trying to stir up religious persecution.

BDawg
 
Blueadept,
Thanks for the accolades, I appreciate your posts also.

To the Others, exmo and ex mo’s wife,
I had the same impression as Bdawg, that you were really mad about the LDS doing posthumous baptisms. If you don’t believe in it why in the world would it offend you? Why would some of you fly off the handle and want to send 1.5 Billion Catholics on the attack against the Mormon church. If that isn’t hatred I don’t know what is.
I thought Bdawg made some very good points and explained our belief in baptism for the dead very well.
If your way is the true way then don’t worry, God will be having a good laugh at all our work for nothing. If our way is the true way then you are all taken care of when you get there and find out our way was the true way. Ha Ha Lighten up already!
BJ 🙂
 
The LDS do not just baptize members of their families. The signers of the Constitution, Founding Fathers, dead Presidents have all been baptised after their deathes as of 1980.

The LDS consider it a good work, even though their act might leave the kin of these people feeling less – charitable. They do not see it as a violation of these people’s religion because they are the one true church. Every church but their own is the product of men’s weaknesses, flaws or misinterpretations.
 
I like the insight of other faiths…I live in Utah and definitely appreiate the insight of what LDS beliefs are…mostly so I can see how wrong they are (just teasing, here)

Though, I also like the ability to see how other religions choose to interpret scriputral passages as well…

I still think Catholicism is correct, however:p
 
Just one more little thing, I tell my Catholic husband I am going to have him baptized and sealed to me in the Temple after he dies and he loves the thought. He is not as sure as the rest of you which church is true although he never misses Mass, he thinks we won’t really know for sure till we die. Since Catholics do not marry for eternity, but only till death, and he wants us to be together for eternity, it makes him happy to have that extra insurance. Just in case I’m right and he is wrong. He is not at all offended, just impressed that I love him so much, I want to be with him forever.
The Catholic church does not provide that option, at least I have never heard that they do.

BJ 🙂
 
BJ Colbert:
Blueadept,
Thanks for the accolades, I appreciate your posts also.

To the Others, exmo and ex mo’s wife,
I had the same impression as Bdawg, that you were really mad about the LDS doing posthumous baptisms. If you don’t believe in it why in the world would it offend you? Why would some of you fly off the handle and want to send 1.5 Billion Catholics on the attack against the Mormon church. If that isn’t hatred I don’t know what is.
I thought Bdawg made some very good points and explained our belief in baptism for the dead very well.
If your way is the true way then don’t worry, God will be having a good laugh at all our work for nothing. If our way is the true way then you are all taken care of when you get there and find out our way was the true way. Ha Ha Lighten up already!
BJ 🙂
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I don’t think the issue of the Catholics running to defend their faith is hatred, I think it is fear that Satan works in ways to deceive (I’m not accusing you of being Satanic…just explaining the rationale) and they want to prevent that. I for one am not offended by what the LDS believes until my kids come home from a PUBLIC school with LDS literature. At that point I have to remind myself that love includes not ramming that right back down your throats…(I’m kidding of course.) I have always welcomed LDS missionaries into my home; I have always enjoyed debating scriptural issues with them. And it’s a blast to get them to do yard work for me.
 
BJ Colbert:
Just one more little thing, I tell my Catholic husband I am going to have him baptized and sealed to me in the Temple after he dies and he loves the thought. He is not as sure as the rest of you which church is true although he never misses Mass, he thinks we won’t really know for sure till we die. Since Catholics do not marry for eternity, but only till death, and he wants us to be together for eternity, it makes him happy to have that extra insurance. Just in case I’m right and he is wrong. He is not at all offended, just impressed that I love him so much, I want to be with him forever.
The Catholic church does not provide that option, at least I have never heard that they do.

BJ 🙂
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We don’t believe in eternal marriages because we don’t beleive we will become Gods over our own planet to poulate with our celestial families. Not only that we also believe that while in heaven we have no need for sacraments at that point because we are already with God.
 
I am displeased with the Mormon apologetics approach here.

As a Catholic, I don’t give a rat’s ___ about the “authority” to hold a rite. I think the point of the discussion is what gives the Mormons the right to baptize someone after their death without approval of the next-of-kin or their adherents? [Please note the difference in spelling between the two]

How would the Mormons feel if they found out that was Rome returning the favor by baptizing your prophets, apostles, seventies? Rome could claim the same grounds as “the Only True Church.”

In essence, it is a profound sign of disrespect.
 
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TomK:
In essence, it is a profound sign of disrespect.
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And I think that is the problem the Jewish and Catholics have with the issue…it tends to be a method of dishonoring…
 
I find the arrogance understandable but I see the LDS Church as a false religion; they can baptize me posthumously all they want - it’s an empty gesture and I reject it.

👍
 
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TomK:
I am displeased with the Mormon apologetics approach here.

As a Catholic, I don’t give a rat’s ___ about the “authority” to hold a rite. I think the point of the discussion is what gives the Mormons the right to baptize someone after their death without approval of the next-of-kin or their adherents? [Please note the difference in spelling between the two]

How would the Mormons feel if they found out that was Rome returning the favor by baptizing your prophets, apostles, seventies? Rome could claim the same grounds as “the Only True Church.”

In essence, it is a profound sign of disrespect.
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Hi Tom,

Mormons have certain rules about whose name can be submitted for proxy baptism. You have to have permission of the next of kin, or the person has to have died more than about 110 years ago. Now, whoever submitted the names of a bunch of Holocaust victims was not following the rules. I suspect that whoever submitted Hitler’s name was not following the rules. If someone were to submit JP II’s name within the next 110 years, they would not be following the rules. Some people are too ignorant to follow the rules, and some people just think they know better. It would be WAY too much paperwork to require signed permission from next of kin, so I think we just live with the fact that some people aren’t following the rules, and hope people don’t get too offended about it. We do TRY to have some respect for the feelings of near family, though.

To answer your other question, I would not be offended at all if Catholics performed some rite in my behalf, or on behalf of our prophets, as long is they weren’t bothering anyone else. Honestly, why on earth would I bother getting worked up about THAT?

BDawg
 
I also view this practice as a sign of disrespect for those not LDS. I mean I understand the principal that I could accept or deny the baptism in the afterlife. Even if I told my wife I would prefer not to have the rite performed after I die, I figure one of my other (300) LDS relatives will do it anyways. Since I support my wife to maintain her temple recommend, I suppose I’m supporting what goes on in the temple. I guess I will get off my soapbox when I’m able to receive the sacraments again in my own church.

That’s why I suggested that we petition our leaders to request that our leaders not be ‘baptized’ in their temples as the Jews have done for the holocast victims of WW2.

In my opinion I guess it really doesn’t matter what they do in the temples to me. But I believe its disrespectful of others faiths.

My wife telling me that Catholics only believe in ‘til death do you part’ literally always grates me wrong. I believe we will know each other, but we will already be in God’s presence. But this topic should be for another thread.
 
110 years? yeah people might forget about the whole issue then, huh?
 
Seeks God:
I don’t think the issue of the Catholics running to defend their faith is hatred, I think it is fear that Satan works in ways to deceive (I’m not accusing you of being Satanic…just explaining the rationale) and they want to prevent that. I for one am not offended by what the LDS believes until my kids come home from a PUBLIC school with LDS literature. At that point I have to remind myself that love includes not ramming that right back down your throats…(I’m kidding of course.) I have always welcomed LDS missionaries into my home; I have always enjoyed debating scriptural issues with them. And it’s a blast to get them to do yard work for me.
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Hi Seeks God,

How is calling on 1.1 billion Catholics to take public action against the Mormons for performing some harmless religious rite “defending their faith”? To me it seems more like “getting offended over nothing and using it as an excuse to encourage religious persecution.”

I live in Utah, too, and I wish you would watch one of our General Conferences on TV. EVERY SINGLE TIME, one of our Apostles gets up there and pleads with LDS people in the Utah area to be more tolerant, kind, accepting, and non-self-righteous toward people of other faiths. For the most part, I think we try, although some people who have lived here all their lives are sort of oblivious to the fact that any other religions exist around here. And then, frankly, we also have a few total jerks who belong to our church. I’ve noticed that we aren’t alone in harboring a few oblivious people and jerks, though. Wouldn’t you agree?

BDawg
 
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