Mormons baptizing our Pope posthumously

[BJ_Colbert]

If you all knew how long it takes to look up all of the information in our own genealogy line, you would not be so worried that some Mormon is just going around baptizing all non members. We are more concerned with tracing our own ancestors. I have one line that goes back to Charlemagne. I was so excited to find that and then my cousin, who’s whole life is spent doing genealogy said there are a lot of people who go back to Charlemagne. She said he made sure his subjects kept genealogy records and so it is fairly easy to trace back. My sister, who is not LDS, was helping me and we were both very into researching our family lines. It is fun, but as I say very time consuming and frustrating at times. I am sure when I get around to having any of them baptized, there will be some Catholics in the pile. But, if you don’t believe in posthumous or even Mormon baptism, why would any of you care? You will be the same in heaven as here and what you feel here may be the same as you feel there, so you would reject it anyway. But, if you find we are right and you are wrong, you get another chance?
I have a question, why does being in God’s presence, in heaven mean you can’t be married? I just want to be married because if I don’t have my husband and children and grandchildren then it would not be heaven to me. I really would not care where I went if it won’t be just as it is here with family always there to interact with. I don’t want to be with a bunch of strangers. How lonely would that be.
Also, 10 years ago my baby granddaughter died in a babysitter accident, at 10 months old. It was my number 2 son’s baby and my number 1 son’s, Mother in law had a novina said for the baby, I thought it was very nice of her and was not offended at all. I don’t know what a novina is, but I am sure it cost them some money and why would I be offended for someone caring enough about me to do something nice for my LDS grand child.
By the way where did you all hear that the Pope was going to be baptized in the one of the Mormon Temples? Also, I had never heard the one about Hitler, that is really gruesome, I can’t imagine anyone doing such a thing, can you be specific as to where you got that kind of information?
All us Mormons are trying to defend something, I for one have never heard of. I guess you must have found it on some Catholic web site?
BJ

 

[ex-mormon]

BDawg:

Answers to questions and comments to and about BDawg:

1. I apologize for accusing ex for being a piece of work, since he didn’t actually start the thread. However, I still cannot understand why a “cradle Catholic” would take offense at such a harmless religious practice. Like I said, when my Catholic relatives perform religious acts on my behalf, I appreciate the sentiment, even though I don’t necessarily agree with the practice. No skin off my nose.

BDawg,

Thankyou apology accepted. “Cradle Catholics” take offense because baptism is a one time Sacrament. That being said a religious Catholic act on your behalf would be a prayer for you. The renewal of Baptismal promises does not include being rebaptized, it is an act of faith. From the Catechism 1253&1254 *Baptism is a sacrament of faith, Baptism is the source of that new life in Christ from wich the entire Christian life springs foreward. *The “Baptism for the dead” infers that Catholics need to receive the “True Gospel” by the hands of the “true priesthood” as dictated by the LDS Church. Can’t you see how this would be an insult to Catholics. Prayers said for you by Catholics are not a sacrament, they are simply a prayer for your wellbeing.

Originally Posted by BDawg
2. I hang around these boards because I found it doing a google search, and discovered that there was a “non-Catholic Religions” forum where my religion is frequently misrepresented and denigrated. So I figured it might be a kick to hang around and see if some of these people could be set straight about a few things. You will notice that I never post anything outside of the non-Catholic Religions forum, and never on any thread that doesn’t start out with someone complaining about the Mormons. If non-Catholics aren’t welcome here, just let me know, and I will vamoose.

I am glad that you “hang around these boards” to defend your faith. I find it challenging to challenge your beliefs. I would just like to see a more civil tone when it comes to responding to posts that challenge your beliefs, with that said I think it applies all persons on this forum. People can say what ever they wan’t about another persons religious beliefs as long as it does not attack the poster on a personal level. I think you would find a lot of great places to post on this entire board, not just the non-Catholic Religions forum, the water cooler is actually a great place to talk about anything. Of coarse non-Catholics are welcome here, otherwise what would be the point of having a non-Catholic Religions forum.

Originally Posted by BDawg
3. Ex-mo, you are wrong that Judas only prayed for the dead soldiers. The text says they had a sin offering done for them. Many commentators have noted that Paul’s language in 1 Cor. 15:29-30 seems to be based on that of 2 Maccabees, and the rationale given for baptism for the dead is the same as that given for Judas’ sacrifice.

Yes they made a sin offering for the soilders and prayed for them. But I still don’t see how that can be equated with the Sacrament of Baptism, let alone “Baptism for Dead” What commentators have noted the corelation between 2 Maccabees 12:40-46 and 1 Corinthians 15:29-30.

Originally Posted by BDawg
4. Nevertheless, I realize the text of 1 Cor. 15:29-30 is ambiguous regarding what Paul thought of the practice of baptism for the dead. I was merely pointing out (for people who didn’t know) that some ancient Christians seem to have done something similar, so the Mormon practice is not quite as strange as some might think

Here is a scripture that might shed light on our belief of Baptism
Ephesians 4:1-6
*1 I then, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to live in a manner worthy of the call you have received, 2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another through love, 3 striving to preserve the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace: 4 one body and one Spirit, as you were also called to the one hope of your call; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. *
Paul is ambiguous regarding what he thought of the practice of baptism for the dead in 1 Corinthians 15:29-30 but he was not ambiguous in Ephesians 4:5 of “one Lord, one faith, one baptism” I would consider the Apostle Paul not only an ancient Christian, but one with authority on this matter. Just some food for thought.

God bless’

ex-mo

 

[Fox]

Mormon baptisms do not mean nothing to me. It is unscriptural, their type of baptism.

 

[Seeks_God]

BJ Colbert:

I have a question, why does being in God’s presence, in heaven mean you can’t be married? I just want to be married because if I don’t have my husband and children and grandchildren then it would not be heaven to me. I really would not care where I went if it won’t be just as it is here with family always there to interact with. I don’t want to be with a bunch of strangers. How lonely would that be.

BJ,

I’m sure my fellow Catholics will correct me if I’m wrong, but here is my explaination. Marraige is one of the Seven Sacraments, and through receiving Sacraments we are receiving God’s Grace. When you are in heaven, there is no need to have Grace given to you because you are fully united with God. Therefore there is no need for Baptism, Eucharist, Confirmation, Confession, Annointing of the Sick, Holy Orders, OR Marriage. We also don’t share your belief that there is a need to have a Celestial Family, because in heaven we are ALL family, therefore no one will be a stranger to us either. I hope this explains our belief. Many Catholics struggle with the concept of “till death do us part”; which is truly a human expression of need in companionship.

SG

 

[BDawg]

Hi ex-mo,

I apologize if I don’t seem civil, sometimes. It’s hard to write with the proper “tone” when you can’t use body language, etc. I do get a little ticked when people here start talking about how “stupid” or “ridiculous” my beliefs are. The vast majority of the people here that say that sort of thing are abyssmally ignorant about what LDS believe, or why they believe it. I also get mad when people start trying to organize pressure campaigns against the LDS, as your wife did.

ex-mormon:

The “Baptism for the dead” infers that Catholics need to receive the “True Gospel” by the hands of the “true priesthood” as dictated by the LDS Church. Can’t you see how this would be an insult to Catholics. Prayers said for you by Catholics are not a sacrament, they are simply a prayer for your wellbeing.

So what? LDS who convert to Catholicism need to be rebaptized, according to a recent ruling by the Vatican. So Catholics don’t accept LDS sacraments. Should I be offended because that implies I need to receive the “True Gospel” by the hands of the “true priesthood” as dictated by the RCC? Should I be offended because some Catholic prays for me, or lights a candle for me, because they think I am spiritually lost? In reality, I would simply be getting offended because someone disagrees with me on religious matters.

I don’t want to put you in the doghouse with your wife, here, but this seems like a pretty obvious point to me.

ex-mormon:

Yes they made a sin offering for the soilders and prayed for them. But I still don’t see how that can be equated with the Sacrament of Baptism, let alone “Baptism for Dead” What commentators have noted the corelation between 2 Maccabees 12:40-46 and 1 Corinthians 15:29-30.

Here are a couple refs I have on hand:

Joost Holleman, Resurrection and Parousia: A Traditio-Historical Study of Paul’s Eschatology in 1 Corinthians 15, Supplements to Novum Testamentum volume LXXXIV (Leiden: E.J. Brill, 1996,) 147.

Karl Barth, The Resurrection of the Dead, tr. H.J. Stenning (London: Hodder and Stoughton, 1933,) 183.

I also just read that “many commentators” have noted the parallel in a book by Evangelical theologian John Sanders, called “No Other Name: An Investigation into the Fate of the Unevangelized.” (I think the subtitle is something like that–I can’t remember.) I can look that up, too, if you like.

ex-mormon:

Here is a scripture that might shed light on our belief of Baptism, Ephesians 4:1-6…
Paul is ambiguous regarding what he thought of the practice of baptism for the dead in 1 Corinthians 15:29-30 but he was not ambiguous in Ephesians 4:5 of “one Lord, one faith, one baptism” I would consider the Apostle Paul not only an ancient Christian, but one with authority on this matter. Just some food for thought.

I don’t understand your point, here. The whole point of baptism for the dead is that there is “one baptism” that applies to everyone. And what does that have to do with getting offended that some other religion doesn’t accept your sacrament?

BDawg

 

[gardenswithkids]

BDawg:

LDS who convert to Catholicism need to be rebaptized, according to a recent ruling by the Vatican. So Catholics don’t accept LDS sacraments.

“Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” Matt 28:19
This is the basic formula required in the Catholic Church for a valid baptism. These were the words given to us by Jesus for baptism. Protestant baptisms that use that formula are recognized by the Church. It is my understanding that Mormon’s don’t baptize with the formula of the Trinity and that is why the Catholic Church doesn’t recognize your baptisms. If it makes you feel any better, I heard a rumor of a Catholic parish whose priest used different words and the bishop declaired those baptisms invalid and they needed to be baptized again using the correct words.

I’m still not offended by Mormons who believe Mormon teachings. If you believed the Pope, then I expect you would become Catholics. And, frankly, I’d like it if you did. I am a Catholic who believes Catholic teachings, and I’d like to share some reflections of mine on this post with the Mormons who are here. (Warning: Catholic evangelism ahead.)

I suspect the idea of baptizing the dead may have come about because the Mormon faith only began in the 1800’s or so and it’s hard to believe everyone born before the establishment of the Mormon Church couldn’t be in heaven. I don’t mean to offend you by saying that, but I would like to invite you to learn Church history of the Catholic Church, which was baptizing people using the words Jesus gave us back in the time of Charlemagne and even before that. I am glad that the Mormons have a church that encourages moral behavior, but I don’t believe you have the Church that was established by Jesus Christ. I believe Jesus established the Catholic Church, and I hope that while you are here on this forum you can learn more about the Catholic faith.

 

[BDawg]

Hi gardenswithkids,

Thanks for the note.

“Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” Matt 28:19
This is the basic formula required in the Catholic Church for a valid baptism. These were the words given to us by Jesus for baptism.

I am going to preface my remarks by saying that it doesn’t make any difference to me, whatsoever, whether the RCC accepts LDS sacraments as valid. That said, I should point out that LDS baptize using the following words:

“Having been commissioned of God, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, amen.”

Then the person gets dunked. Fr. Ladaria, who wrote about the Vatican ruling on Mormon baptisms said that they were invalid because Mormons don’t MEAN the same thing when we say those words, i.e., we have a different concept of the Trinity. I thought that was odd, because for centuries (since about the 3rd century) the rule was that the wording just had to be right, and all kinds of heretics even weirder than the Mormons had their baptisms accepted by the RCC. I wonder why they chose to single out Mormonism in that way? That said, I still don’t really care.

I suspect the idea of baptizing the dead may have come about because the Mormon faith only began in the 1800’s or so and it’s hard to believe everyone born before the establishment of the Mormon Church couldn’t be in heaven. I don’t mean to offend you by saying that, but I would like to invite you to learn Church history of the Catholic Church, which was baptizing people using the words Jesus gave us back in the time of Charlemagne and even before that. I am glad that the Mormons have a church that encourages moral behavior, but I don’t believe you have the Church that was established by Jesus Christ. I believe Jesus established the Catholic Church, and I hope that while you are here on this forum you can learn more about the Catholic faith.

Are you kidding? I LOVE reading Catholic history. Jean Danielou (the late French Cardinal) is my favorite, and right now I’m reading a book by a Jesuit priest (Fr. Sullivan) on the transition from apostles to bishops. In the last couple years I put “The Oxford Dictionary of Popes” and “The Encyclopedia of Early Christianity” on my Amazon wish list, and got them for Christmas. I have a full set of “The Ante-Nicene Fathers,” and a book called “The Story of Christianity” (about 800 pages) was my bathroom reading a couple years ago.

As for the origin of baptism for the dead, doesn’t every Christian have to figure out how to view the salvation of the unevangelized, and what, if anything, to do about it? For Mormons, the sacraments are not just “instruments of grace.” They are covenants one makes with God. We have a heavy, heavy emphasis on making and keeping covenants with God. That’s why we take John 3:5 (“a man must be born of water and the Spirit to enter the Kingdom of God”) so seriously, and hence we perform proxy baptisms for the dead.

Thanks for the evangelism, though. If you get evangelized by a Mormon, it usually means they like you.

BDawg

 

[Zooey]

When my cousin was doing the family genealogy, he wanted to find some children that my grandparents had lost young/stillborn children they had. He was upset because although the Mormons helped him find the graves so we could put up markers, the guy who did it, insisted that he be allowed to have them baptized Mormon in order to help him.
I don’t know if this is common or not, Or if it was just this one guy who did it, but to me that is just wrong!! It was basically a form of blackmail, IMHO.
PS: I told my cousin, to let the guy do it…It wasn’t going to *hurt *them any. But I think it was in extremely bad taste to twist my family’s arms that way!
Now it sounds like the Mormons who have been posting would not support that. But I think that before you assume that people are reacting wrong, that you might want to check out their experiences. Before you accuse them of being “prejudiced”!!

 

[Mom_of_5]

I am thinking about starting a new religion. I want it to be my “dream” religion. It will be one that I can change the rules depending upon the circumstances of the day. I would want a lot of people to be in my religion, so I will make it very appealing. I will have a wonderful building for my members to go to so that they will have an idea of what the “world beyond” will look like. I will make it so appealing that all my members will give me 10% of their income. (before taxes) They won’t even ask how and where I spend it. I will want a lot of members in my religion, but only the elite can come to my fancy building. I don’t want the beautiful marble /carpet floors to wear out, so I will make lots of rules that will make it possible for only a small percentage of my members to visit this wonderous edifice. The money that I have left over after I invest in humongo businesses will be used to build these building of marble and gold.

I will send out a lot of young people to evangelize and get the membership built up. They don’t get paid because they are doing “MO5 work”. They need to learn to give a lot, sacrifice a lot and get nothing in return except a nice atta-boy in the ward news letter. Well, not really nothing, because if they live their lives the way I prescribe, they will get the best seats in the “world beyond”.
In order to keep my members I will tell them that everyone will go to a place in the “world beyond” (upper world) except the ones that leave my religion. They will have to go to the “under world” never to be seen or heard from again. Pretty scary stuff!!

Before I start my religion,I am going to write a book that my members must memorize. (First I am going to watch all the “outer space” movies and read a lot of paper back books about “outer space” fiction.) I will also give a copy of it away to all who call an 800 #. They won’t know that they are getting a copy of my great book, they will think they are getting a copy of the New Testament. (We will hide a copy of the “MO5 book” in the back of the New Testament.) Won’t That be special!!

Once I put all the facets of my religion into place I will keep my members busy finding all the names of the dead that the other “true religion” baptised. Then, we will set aside a large space in our fancy building to “unbaptise” all those dead people who didn’t ask to be baptized in that “other” religion in the first place. We will “unseal” all those dead people who got sealed to each other. Can you imagine the relief of those poor souls who were sealed to someone they didn’t know on earth or maybe even someone they didn’t like?? Will any of you sign up to help me with that??? If you do, I PROMISE not to call the " other "religion a “cult” ever again!!

I suppose there are those of you who would call this religion a “nightmare” rather than a “dream”!!

Sorry if this is all just too silly. I am only trying to make the point that any of us can start a religion, and many have. I prefer to stick with the one Jesus started…not someone like me with a great imagination and a group of friends willing to go along with the hoax.

Amen!

Love and Peace

 

[wademann]

Hey Mom, love and peace? yea right.

 

[tkdnick]

Seeks God:

BJ,

I’m sure my fellow Catholics will correct me if I’m wrong, but here is my explaination. Marraige is one of the Seven Sacraments, and through receiving Sacraments we are receiving God’s Grace. When you are in heaven, there is no need to have Grace given to you because you are fully united with God. Therefore there is no need for Baptism, Eucharist, Confirmation, Confession, Annointing of the Sick, Holy Orders, OR Marriage. We also don’t share your belief that there is a need to have a Celestial Family, because in heaven we are ALL family, therefore no one will be a stranger to us either. I hope this explains our belief. Many Catholics struggle with the concept of “till death do us part”; which is truly a human expression of need in companionship.

Just thought I would add to Seeks’ comments…
Nowhere does it say, nor do we believe that we will not be with family in Heaven. We just don’t see it the same way the LDS church does. We do not believe that we will be a “family unit” with mom, dad, and the kids. Will you be with your husband? Yes. Will you be in a “marital” union? No. Will you be with your kids? Yes. Will you be with them in the “parent-child” relationship? No. You will still know and love all those you do now, it will just be perfected love, and therefore there is no need for the marital union or family unit.

 

[ex-mormon]

BDawg:

Hi ex-mo,

The vast majority of the people here that say that sort of thing are abyssmally ignorant about what LDS believe, or why they believe it. I also get mad when people start trying to organize pressure campaigns against the LDS, as your wife did.

Hi BDawg,

I would agree that the vast majority of people here are ignorant of what LDS believe, so let’s inform them with open and honest debate. Myself and other ex-LDS get upset when Mormons on this forum claim that we no nothing of the LDS faith or that we are bitter about our former religion and can’t be trusted to give an honest answer about Mormon beliefs. We are automatically considered Anti Mormon just because we no longer believe what your chuch teaches. Ex-Mormons…New Catholics have very little in common with most Ex-Momons who become New Protostant, Agnostic, or Atheists that make up the Anti-Mormon crowd. We accept the Priesthood Authority, Sacraments, and the Catachism of the Catholic chuch, most of the above mentioned Ex-Mormons have a harder time with our choice then yours to remain in what they deem a “Lie”. Apostolic succsesion is a common belief in both of our religions, we believe that it was passed down from Christ to St. Peter to Pope John Paul II to the new Pope, LDS believe that it was passed down from Christ to the Angel St. John the Baptist to Joseph Smith. The other groups have a problem with Priesthood Authority. We the Ex-LDS…New Catholics deserve the same respect from current mormons that you ask for from non-Mormons.

If you believe what you are doing is right, then why would you get upset about organized pressure campaings from other religions. If your church is doing nothing wrong then why should you worry?

Originally Posted by BDawg
So what? LDS who convert to Catholicism need to be rebaptized, according to a recent ruling by the Vatican. So Catholics don’t accept LDS sacraments. Should I be offended because that implies I need to receive the “True Gospel” by the hands of the “true priesthood” as dictated by the RCC? Should I be offended because some Catholic prays for me, or lights a candle for me, because they think I am spiritually lost? In reality, I would simply be getting offended because someone disagrees with me on religious matters.

No LDS don’t need to be rebaptized according to the Vatican, they need the initial Sacrament of Baptism because the LDS baptism is not a valid Christian Baptism. The LDS belief of polytheism and the conception of Christ, it is not considered valid. On the surface an LDS baptism sounds like it supports the concept of the Trinity, but when you dig deeper into Church Doctorine and discover the belief in three seperate GODs making up the “GodHead” and the concept of a heavenly mother then you would see why we do not find it valid.

No Catholic that I know would ever be offended if a Mormon prayed for them. My point was that you can’t compare prayer with the Sacrament of Baptism no matter what religion you belong to.

Originally Posted by BDawg
I don’t want to put you in the doghouse with your wife, here, but this seems like a pretty obvious point to me.

Don’t worry the only time I am in the “Doghouse” is when I don’t finish my honeydo’s list.

Originally Posted by BDawg
Here are a couple refs I have on hand:

Joost Holleman, Resurrection and Parousia: A Traditio-Historical Study of Paul’s Eschatology in 1 Corinthians 15, Supplements to Novum Testamentum volume LXXXIV (Leiden: E.J. Brill, 1996,) 147.

Karl Barth, The Resurrection of the Dead, tr. H.J. Stenning (London: Hodder and Stoughton, 1933,) 183.

I also just read that “many commentators” have noted the parallel in a book by Evangelical theologian John Sanders, called “No Other Name: An Investigation into the Fate of the Unevangelized.” (I think the subtitle is something like that–I can’t remember.) I can look that up, too, if you like.

I will have to find these books and look into this comparison.

Originally Posted by BDawg
I don’t understand your point, here. The whole point of baptism for the dead is that there is “one baptism” that applies to everyone. And what does that have to do with getting offended that some other religion doesn’t accept your sacrament?

You miss understand me when I say “One Baptism” I am not refering to the formula “…In the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.” I am talking about the physical act. I Know that Mormons would rebaptize me if I came back to your church. Catholics don’t, we would have to confess our sins in order to receive communion. We beleive that Baptism is a once in a life time Sacrament.

As far as getting offended that some other religion doesn’t accept our Sacrament, I don’t, however the wishes of other people and religions that do should be respected.

God bless’

ex-mo

 

[BJ_Colbert]

I still think that marriage to my husband and being with my own children is as perfect as life can be, and if heaven isn’t with them in my own family unit, I will not be happy. God knows that, that is why He intituted marriage and families. We are His children and He loves us and He wants us to be happy. “Man is that he might have joy”.
I don’t quite understand the concept of being in God’s presence obliterating everything we know and love on earth and just making everyone be friends in heaven. I am sorry but I don’t want to just float around smiling at a bunch of friends, that sounds like a horror movie to me. I believe He put us on earth to live the principles that exist in heaven. Life will be much the same as it is now, but without the pain, illness, and suffering. This is a test to see if we can follow the commandments and return to Him. When and if we pass the test then we can return to dwell in His presence, and be united with our families as we know them now. My husband will be my husband there and my children will be my children in heaven. But, there is always the chance we won’t make it to heaven or some of us might not, then we won’t be together and it will be just as you describe, and that would be called hell.

By the way I just read where the LDS Church is now the 4th largest religion in the USA in the 2005 Yearbook of American and Canadian Churches.
I had just posted that we were number 5, I guess that was last year.

Charity Never Faileth
BJ

 

[Seeks_God]

BJ Colbert:

I am sorry but I don’t want to just float around smiling at a bunch of friends, that sounds like a horror movie to me.BJ

You think having friends is like a horror movie? You scare pretty easy then…(Just kidding)

Coming to God in heaven does not mean that EVERYTHING on earth is destroyed, it just means that there is no need to receive Graces from God, because we have been fully brought into His Grace when we enter heaven. The Catholic Sacraments is how we receive God’s grace while on earth; when we are in heaven the Sacraments are fullfilled because we are with God to worship him perfectly. We never, however, become like God.

Can you do me a favor and explain the LDS concept of the afterlife? I’m not afraid to admit that I know little of your faith…

SG

 

[Melvin]

First, thanks be to God that the actions of the Mormon church can neither deceive nor soil the souls of the faithful departed and lead them to hell as they do so many unsuspecting, sincere and desperately seeking souls on earth. (Sorry. I have a habit of being direct.)

Second, maybe the Church’s leadership can take advantage of this sacrilegious conduct on the part of the Mormons. It could provide a wonderful segue for a justifiable (even in the eyes of the secular world) and animated defense of the Catholic Church and Faith and for exposing in detail and in public the errors of Mormonism over and against the historic faith of the Church. It would provide for an opportunity to establish the Catholic Church’s credentials and to list in searing detail in public forums (I would bet every newspaper in the country would carry the story) the reasons why the Mormon faith is counterfeit and must not be construed as connected to the Christian faith, why the Mormon church must not be considered as having any relationship to the Catholic Church or the faithful, how by its actions the Mormon church dishonors the names and memories of those Catholics for whom these “baptisms” are performed, and how by its teaching and its actions the Mormon church blasphemes the name of Christ.

Such an opportunity to confront and expose the Mormon’s false gospel in such a broad public arena should not be passed up. It could reach millions almost simultaneously in their homes, on their jobs, and in their cars, planting seeds of truth along the way. It would also speak pointedly to those Mormons who believe themselves to be Christians by showing them why that is not so.

ex-mormon:

I’m actually Ex-mo’s Catholic wife…Just a little too lazy to get my own ID.

I’m just wondering what the general feeling here and there is regarding the Mormon’s practice of Baptism of the Dead of our Catholic Popes and other deceased? Everyone seems to acknowledge that the Mormons intend to “do his Templework”. I guess its just a matter of time.

This is on the heels of the outrage of our Jewish counterparts in regards to the “baptisms” of their deceased, including Holocaust victims.
story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&e=1&u=/ap/baptizing_the_dead

I guess I’m just surprised that the Catholics aren’t more publicly proactive about this subject, especially over someone as important as the Pope! The Mormons have “baptized by proxy” several key Catholic figures including many of our popes, Joan of Arc, and other historical figures (it’s beginning to sound like Bill & Ted’s Excellent Adventure:whacky: )

So how about it? Why don’t WE make the Mormons PUBLICLY answer to this UNWANTED practice just as the Jews are? This would definetly rock their world to have 1.1 BILLION in opposition to their plans to baptize our pope! Or … is this just a minor and harmless nuisance to ignore? Isn’t silence considered implied consent?

 

[BDawg]

Hi ex,

ex-mormon:

We the Ex-LDS…New Catholics deserve the same respect from current mormons that you ask for from non-Mormons.

As I recall, I only accused you of being bitter when I thought your wife’s post was from you. And I would have stood by the accusation if it had been from you. I still view what your wife did as trying to drum up persecution.

ex-mormon:

If you believe what you are doing is right, then why would you get upset about organized pressure campaings from other religions. If your church is doing nothing wrong then why should you worry?

You’re right. Maybe I should be like Paul and glory in persecution. It still sickens me, though.

ex-mormon:

No LDS don’t need to be rebaptized according to the Vatican, they need the initial Sacrament of Baptism because the LDS baptism is not a valid Christian Baptism.

Ok, then baptism for the dead is all about receiving the initial sacrament of baptism, because other baptisms are not valid. Before you were saying that this was cause for taking offense, i believe.

ex-mormon:

No Catholic that I know would ever be offended if a Mormon prayed for them. My point was that you can’t compare prayer with the Sacrament of Baptism no matter what religion you belong to.

Again, you are flip-flopping all over the place. Is it cause for taking offense that some other religion does not accept your sacraments as valid, or isn’t it? If it isn’t, why take offense over baptism for the dead? If it is, why shouldn’t LDS take offense that the Vatican does not accept our baptisms as valid Christian ones?

ex-mormon:

You miss understand me when I say “One Baptism” I am not refering to the formula “…In the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.” I am talking about the physical act. I Know that Mormons would rebaptize me if I came back to your church. Catholics don’t, we would have to confess our sins in order to receive communion. We beleive that Baptism is a once in a life time Sacrament.

This is what I thought you meant. My point was that LDS interpret that verse to mean that there is only one true baptism. The purpose of baptism for the dead is to provide everyone the chance to accept the one true baptism.

ex-mormon:

As far as getting offended that some other religion doesn’t accept our Sacrament, I don’t, however the wishes of other people and religions that do should be respected.

And since they are dead, how do you know what people’s wishes are regarding this issue? We do try to respect the wishes of near relatives, but when someone has been long dead, it does not seem to me that anyone has a personal attachment to the deceased person that we should feel obligated to respect.

BDawg

 

[BDawg]

That said, I’m cutting out of this thread. I’m encouraged that there seem to be a number of fair-minded Catholics here who don’t bother to getting worked up over nothing, so that they end up trying to drum up religious persecution. I hope the rest are part of the lunatic fringe.

BDawg

 

[Chris-WA]

BJ Colbert:

I have a question, why does being in God’s presence, in heaven mean you can’t be married? I just want to be married because if I don’t have my husband and children and grandchildren then it would not be heaven to me. I really would not care where I went if it won’t be just as it is here with family always there to interact with. I don’t want to be with a bunch of strangers. How lonely would that be.

BJ, the problem here is that you’re projecting your earthly expectations and experiences into the eternal heaven. Heaven is not just a higher version of earth, it is much more than that. The family that we will be a part of in heaven is God’s family. In heaven, we are His children in the perfect sense of the word. Every human soul in heaven will be one of your brothers or sisters, because God is your real father. You will not be alone, you will not be strangers–you will be part of an innumerable family that far exceeds any experience of family you’ve had on earth, no matter how wonderful it was. We don’t lose our family when we go to heaven. On the contrary, we become part of a much bigger family–the perfect family that only God could father, basking eternally in the love of the blessed Trinity. Does that sound lonely to you?

 

[BJ_Colbert]

Chris-WA:

BJ, the problem here is that you’re projecting your earthly expectations and experiences into the eternal heaven. Heaven is not just a higher version of earth, it is much more than that. The family that we will be a part of in heaven is God’s family. In heaven, we are His children in the perfect sense of the word. Every human soul in heaven will be one of your brothers or sisters, because God is your real father. You will not be alone, you will not be strangers–you will be part of an innumerable family that far exceeds any experience of family you’ve had on earth, no matter how wonderful it was. We don’t lose our family when we go to heaven. On the contrary, we become part of a much bigger family–the perfect family that only God could father, basking eternally in the love of the blessed Trinity. Does that sound lonely to you?

Chris, the way you explain it sounds a little better, the way the others explained it sounded like getting permanent Alzheimers.

I still want my own family with me in a family unit, but at least I understand your concept a lot better. We agree that we are all God’s children and we are all brothers and sisters and hence one big family. It still sounds a little lonely, because brothers and sisters are not always close and with billions of them I still would want my immediate family and my parents and grandparents with me in my own little tight circle. I’m sure heaven is going to be very large to hold all of the people who have ever lived since the beginning of time. I want my family to live nearby, like they do now. Thanks Chris, you are a good guy and a good Catholic.
BJ

 

[ex-mormon]

BDawg:

Hi ex,

Again, you are flip-flopping all over the place. Is it cause for taking offense that some other religion does not accept your sacraments as valid, or isn’t it? If it isn’t, why take offense over baptism for the dead? If it is, why shouldn’t LDS take offense that the Vatican does not accept our baptisms as valid Christian ones?

What flip-flopping? Don’t take my posts out of context. If you believe that your baptisms are valid then why don’t you take offense. I know that I did in 2001 when I was still LDS. I expressed to you how Catholics in general feel about baptism for the dead, and why they get offended. I also expressed to you that it did not bother me in the least bit in a previous post. I think that explains how I did not flip-flop. When I was Mormon I would care what other Churches thought about our beliefs, because we felt that we were looked down upon or persecuted for them. I have never lived in Utah or Idaho, so I never had the luxury of being surrounded by fellow members. After finding Christs true church, the Catholic chuch, and knowing what I now now about what it is to love and fully understand God without the secrecy that I swore to never discuss, I don’t worry what other faiths say or do with regard to their idea of worship.

And since they are dead, how do you know what people’s wishes are regarding this issue? We do try to respect the wishes of near relatives, but when someone has been long dead, it does not seem to me that anyone has a personal attachment to the deceased person that we should feel obligated to respect.

I should ask you the same question, since thay are dead and in the spirit prison why don’t they make that choice. If the LDS church is the True Church and baptism for the dead is a requirement, then why don’t the names for the baptism candidates come straight from revelation.
With regards to personal attatchment to the deceased the LDS Church should explain that to the Jewish community that is up in arms again about the LDS practice of baptism for the dead.

God bless,

ex-mo