Mormons become God's after death....

[Prince_Hal]

I have a friend who is LDS. He is a freemason. His wife’s cousin is Apostle Oaks of the LDS Quorum of Twelve. Apparently the apostle said to him (I do not doubt him) that it was okay to be a freemason and LDS, so long as it didn’t get in the way of him being with his family and doing his church callings.

God bless,

Hal.

 

[PaulDupre]

I have a friend who is LDS. He is a freemason. His wife’s cousin is Apostle Oaks of the LDS Quorum of Twelve. Apparently the apostle said to him (I do not doubt him) that it was okay to be a freemason and LDS, so long as it didn’t get in the way of him being with his family and doing his church callings.

God bless,

Hal.

That’s true, but so what?

 

[ParkerD]

Jesus did not need to “succeed” in becoming God, because he was always God. He cannot be anything else. Your question astounds me.

Paul,
I asked if Christ “succeeded”, not if He “succeeded” in “becoming God”. Are you saying that He was not making choices during His life?

 

[ThurifAcolyte]

Paul,
I asked if Christ “succeeded”, not if He “succeeded” in “becoming God”. Are you saying that He was not making choices during His life?

I think that Paul is showing that the Manual was talking about “succeeding” in terms of exaltation.

 

[ParkerD]

Nope, I just checked Gospel Principles on LDS.org and it has not changed. It reads exactly the same.

Paul,
I’ll check tomorrow if I remember to look at the new printed manual with a 2009 copyright date which I have seen. The online manual has a 1997 copyright date.

 

[Prince_Hal]

That’s true, but so what?

Nothing spectacular meant hear other than to say that freemasonry most certainly is not shunned by the Mormon leadership - except by themselves other than in temple ceremonies. The point was to compare this stAnce with the Catholic view which is there is a fundamental exclusive incompatibility between Catholicism and freemasonry.

My comment may be more of a parenthesis than an in line comment with the current flow and direction of the thread.

Hal

 

[ParkerD]

I think that Paul is showing that the Manual was talking about “succeeding” in terms of exaltation.

The statement was another example of ambiguity. God the Father could certainly have always been perfect and lived on an earth just as Christ was always perfect and lived on an earth, and have succeeded in overcoming any temptation or adversity and been completely perfect in every way yet have made choices and therefore “success” meant He always made the perfectly right choice.

 

[ThurifAcolyte]

Paul,
I’ll check tomorrow if I remember to look at the new printed manual with a 2009 copyright date which I have seen. The online manual has a 1997 copyright date.

According to this website:

mrm.org/gospel-principles

which is a critical website, the sentence in question was taken out in the 2009 edition.

 

[chris2009]

chris2009, please research more about the Trinity before mentioning straw men arguments. Trinitarians don’t believe that Jesus saw Himself descending, or that He was talking/praying to Himself. Nor do we believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit merge together into one substance. The Trinity begins (or ends) with the belief that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three separate, distinct Persons, not one Person. Therefore, if you think we believe that Jesus saw Himself ascend, or that He was praying to Himself, you aren’t talking about our actual beliefs. That is a Unitarian/Oneness Pentecostal position, which we do not hold.

Also, btw, we don’t believe that all revelation ended. All people can receive revelations, and many of our canonized saints were prophets and prophetesses (the Bible speaks of female prophets as well).

Help me understand your beliefs better. I know you believe the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are both three personages and one substance. This makes no sense to me. And I’ve heard the water, steam and ice analogy & I still am confused. It seems like the Nicene Creed declared the godhead to be of “one substance”, but not three persons. Then later the Athanasian Creed changed it to be both. Am I correct? Please explain how Christ can be baptized, hear the Father’s voice and see the Holy Ghost descend like a dove when they are all the same substance? Do you believe they seperate from each other and change shape? This is a strange god.

From my research it appears that Greek philosophy had a large influence on Christianity after Christ and the apostles died. It’s no secret the Christian concept of Logos originated from Greek philosophers like Heraclitus (535 BC), Plato, Aristotle, The Stoics, Philo of Alexandria (a Hellenized Jew). These beliefs originated prior to Christ. They merged with Christian beliefs and changed the true doctrines of Christ. They supposed their great Greek scholarly learning was “better” than these ignorant apostles who were fisherman and carpenters.

They changed the idea of God to a oneness of energy that fills the universe. You can see how Christianity picked up their ideas.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logos

Heraclitus said, “Listening not to me but to the LOGOS it is wise to agree that all things are one.”

The Stoics – “In Stoic philosophy, which began with Zeno of Citium c. 300 BCE, the logos was the active reason pervading the universe and animating it. It was conceived of as material, and is usually identified with God or Nature. The Stoics also referred to the seminal logos, (“logos spermatikos”) or the law of generation in the universe, which was the principle of the active reason working in inanimate matter. Humans, too, each possess a portion of the divine logos.”

Philo of Alexandria – "Philo (20 BC - 50 AD), a Hellenized Jew, used the term logos to mean the creative principle. Philo followed the Platonic distinction between imperfect matter and perfect idea. The logos was necessary, he taught, because God cannot come into contact with matter. He sometimes identified logos as divine wisdom. He taught that the Logos was the image of God, after which the human mind (νοῦς) was made. He calls the Logos the “archangel of many names,” “taxiarch” (corps-commander), the “name of God,” also the “heavenly Adam”, [11] the “man, the word of the eternal God.” The Logos is also designated as “high priest,” in reference to the exalted position which the high priest occupied after the Exile as the real center of the Jewish state. The Logos, like the high priest, is the expiator of sins, and the mediator and advocate for men: ἱκέτης (“Quis Rerum Divinarum Heres Sit,” § 42 *, and παράκλητος (“De Vita Mosis,” iii. 14 [ii. 155]).[12] “The Logos is the first-born and the eldest and chief of the angels.”

Here a Hellenized Jew is describing God the way Christians do today. The pure doctrines of Christ were changed.*

 

[PaulDupre]

The statement was another example of ambiguity. God the Father could certainly have always been perfect and lived on an earth just as Christ was always perfect and lived on an earth, and have succeeded in overcoming any temptation or adversity and been completely perfect in every way yet have made choices and therefore “success” meant He always made the perfectly right choice.

If that’s what you meant then I concede your point.

But I don’t believe that’s what *Gospel Principles *meant.

 

[ThurifAcolyte]

Help me understand your beliefs better. I know you believe the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are both three personages and one substance. This makes no sense to me. And I’ve heard the water, steam and ice analogy & I still am confused. It seems like the Nicene Creed declared the godhead to be of “one substance”, but not three persons. Then later the Athanasian Creed changed it to be both. Am I correct? Please explain how Christ can be baptized, hear the Father’s voice and see the Holy Ghost descend like a dove when they are all the same substance? Do you believe they seperate from each other and change shape? This is a strange god.

Chris2009, the Trinity is the belief that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three separate, distinct Persons, yet together make one God. Ignore the water analogies, or any analogies, they all have issues. “Substance” is a philosophical term that refers to what God is, His nature. I like to say that it is the Divine “stuff” that God is, and no one else is (this is different from the Mormon view that we all are ontologically, meaning by nature, the same as God.

The Athanasian Creed did not change anything that the Nicene Creed states. The Nicene Creed states that we believe in God the Father, His Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Spirit. They are “of one substance”, as I described above; they are all the Divine essence (I prefer the word essence, which is used interchangeably with substance, as well as other words). Both creeds emphasize that there are three separate Persons, though the Athanasian Creed states that more explicitly.

Jesus can be baptized, hear the Father’s voice, and see the Holy Spirit descend like a dove, because they are all three separate Persons. We also do not believe that Jesus prayed to Himself. They are three separate Persons, not the same Person. “One substance” has nothing to do with them melding together, or separating from each other and changing shape. That does sound like a strange God, and that is not the Trinity. Again, “one substance” means that each Person is the Divine “stuff”, the Divine essence, etc. The Father is fully Divine, the Son is fully Divine, and the Holy Spirit is fully Divine. One isn’t more Divine than the other (meaning, each isn’t 1/3 divine, together making up 1 divine God. each is completely Divine).

So again, the Trinity is the belief that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three separate Persons, together that make one God. They are one in substance (also said “of one substance”) meaning that they all are ontologically (by nature) the same Divine “stuff”. When we say “God” sometimes we refer to just the Father, or the Trinity together, as Mormons do as well (with Godhead substituting for Trinity).

 

[PaulDupre]

Help me understand your beliefs better. I know you believe the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are both three personages and one substance. This makes no sense to me. And I’ve heard the water, steam and ice analogy & I still am confused.

No wonder, The water, steam, ice analogy describes Modalism (a heresy) and NOT trinitarianism.

 

[chris2009]

Oh, but that’s not the problem at all, Chris.

Over a Billion people believe in the True Church - the Catholic Church, which God founded.

The problem is with groups like mormons and jeehovahs and others who are lost down dirt roads; those who believe in false prophets - the same bogus false prophets that God warned us about.

Please let us know if any mormons have the faith and the courage to actually converse here. I won’t hold my breath.

Meanwhile, I’ve shown you the “problem”.

The cult of “mormonism” is a minor problem, because the population is so dramatically small in the world, but it is a worry that even ONE mormon believes in Joe Smith or any of that hogwash.

Very sad.

What do you mean let you know if any mormons have the courage to actually converse here? All I see here are Catholics and Mormons CONVERSING.

Why are Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses always lumped together? The JW’s are good people I respect, but we have nothing in common but perhaps starting their church in the 1800’s.

Now I noticed you didn’t say the Protestants were a problem or had false prophets. Are you in good standing with them now? Remember, they are the one’s who protested against you for being corrupt back in the 1500s. You remember Martin Luther, John Calvin and other reformers who fled for their lives for fear of being imprisoned or burned at the stake for heresey. By the way, Galeleo was right – the earth does travel around the sun…

 

[ThurifAcolyte]

What do you mean let you know if any mormons have the courage to actually converse here? All I see here are Catholics and Mormons CONVERSING.

Why are Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses always lumped together? The JW’s are good people I respect, but we have nothing in common but perhaps starting their church in the 1800’s.

Now I noticed you didn’t say the Protestants were a problem or had false prophets. Are you in good standing with them now? Remember, they are the one’s who protested against you for being corrupt back in the 1500s. You remember Martin Luther, John Calvin and other reformers who fled for their lives for fear of being imprisoned or burned at the stake for heresey. By the way, Galeleo was right – the earth does travel around the sun…

Mormons and JW’s are lumped together because they are both Restorationist religions, and also are non-Trinitarian.

Protestants are also “a problem” (not really a problem for us but more like teaching false beliefs, from our standpoint). The difference is that they also believe in the Trinity. We may disagree with Protestants on some things where we agree with Mormons, however first and foremost, Catholics and Protestants both believe in the same concept of God.

 

[chris2009]

Chris2009, the Trinity is the belief that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three separate, distinct Persons, yet together make one God. Ignore the water analogies, or any analogies, they all have issues. “Substance” is a philosophical term that refers to what God is, His nature. I like to say that it is the Divine “stuff” that God is, and no one else is (this is different from the Mormon view that we all are ontologically, meaning by nature, the same as God.

The Athanasian Creed did not change anything that the Nicene Creed states. The Nicene Creed states that we believe in God the Father, His Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Spirit. They are “of one substance”, as I described above; they are all the Divine essence (I prefer the word essence, which is used interchangeably with substance, as well as other words). Both creeds emphasize that there are three separate Persons, though the Athanasian Creed states that more explicitly.

Jesus can be baptized, hear the Father’s voice, and see the Holy Spirit descend like a dove, because they are all three separate Persons. We also do not believe that Jesus prayed to Himself. They are three separate Persons, not the same Person. “One substance” has nothing to do with them melding together, or separating from each other and changing shape. That does sound like a strange God, and that is not the Trinity. Again, “one substance” means that each Person is the Divine “stuff”, the Divine essence, etc. The Father is fully Divine, the Son is fully Divine, and the Holy Spirit is fully Divine. One isn’t more Divine than the other (meaning, each isn’t 1/3 divine, together making up 1 divine God. each is completely Divine).

So again, the Trinity is the belief that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three separate Persons, together that make one God. They are one in substance (also said “of one substance”) meaning that they all are ontologically (by nature) the same Divine “stuff”. When we say “God” sometimes we refer to just the Father, or the Trinity together, as Mormons do as well (with Godhead substituting for Trinity).

So how does “same substance” differentiate from “similar substance” with regard to the Trinity? From your description it would seem like there was no difference.

Also, do you believe that the Father, Son or Holy Ghost have any shape or body? When Christ was resurrected and ascended into heaven, what did he do with his perfect body of flesh and bone? Did he get rid of it? Do you believe the Father, Son or Holy Ghost have a spirit like our spirits? Do you believe Christ’s spirit went to the spirit world between his death and resurrection? Please explain…I want to know everything.

 

[chris2009]

Mormons and JW’s are lumped together because they are both Restorationist religions, and also are non-Trinitarian.

Protestants are also “a problem” (not really a problem for us but more like teaching false beliefs, from our standpoint). The difference is that they also believe in the Trinity. We may disagree with Protestants on some things where we agree with Mormons, however first and foremost, Catholics and Protestants both believe in the same concept of God.

Sorry ThurifAcolyte, that comment wasn’t directed towards you. I was probably a little overbearing there. You seem like you have a good head on your shoulders.

 

[PaulDupre]

Also, do you believe that the Father, Son or Holy Ghost have any shape or body? When Christ was resurrected and ascended into heaven, what did he do with his perfect body of flesh and bone?

Jesus still has his glorified body, The bible says so. The Catholic Church has always taught it. And we believe it.

The Mormon leaders have consistently lied to their followers, claiming that Christians do not believe that Jesus has a body and that we don’t believe in the physical resurrection of the body. Both are outright lies, and your leaders know it. They are lying to you. What else are they lying about?

Mormons lie, it is the one thing they are consistent about.

 

[PaulDupre]

Do you believe Christ’s spirit went to the spirit world between his death and resurrection? Please explain…I want to know everything.

The Apostles’ Creed says:

He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended to the dead. On the third day he rose again.

Clear?

 

[ThurifAcolyte]

So how does “same substance” differentiate from “similar substance” with regard to the Trinity? From your description it would seem like there was no difference.

Also, do you believe that the Father, Son or Holy Ghost have any shape or body? When Christ was resurrected and ascended into heaven, what did he do with his perfect body of flesh and bone? Did he get rid of it? Do you believe the Father, Son or Holy Ghost have a spirit like our spirits? Do you believe Christ’s spirit went to the spirit world between his death and resurrection? Please explain…I want to know everything.

What I stated differentiates from “similar substance” because “similar substance” means that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not all equal in terms of Divinity. The Father would be different from the Son in terms of how divine He is, since they are not the same substance. Also, this divides Divinity up, by saying that there are different kinds of divinity, each held by the Three Persons. Instead, the Catholic position is that all three are of one substance, the same substance, and are all fully Divine.

God can take on any shape that He desires, as is evident in the Bible. Of course, we do not believe that the Father has a body of flesh and bones, though He certainly can take on that form if he desires, just like how the Holy Spirit can appear as a dove, but He isn’t a dove. Nor is the Father really a man. These are forms that they can take on to interact with us.

When Jesus Christ ascended to Heaven after His resurrection, He kept his body. We believe that He still has it. We do not believe that He shed His body. We believe that He was bodily resurrected, and bodily ascended, and He still has His body.

No, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit do not have spirits like ours. This is a difference between Mormonism and Catholicism. We believe that we are ontologically (by nature) different from God. It is only by adoption that we become sons and daughters of God, and that we partake of the Divine nature (which is different from our own nature).

Yes, Jesus Christ went to Hades after His death.

 

[ThurifAcolyte]

Sorry ThurifAcolyte, that comment wasn’t directed towards you. I was probably a little overbearing there. You seem like you have a good head on your shoulders.

Thank you and no problem, I was just giving you my perspective on that issue.