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zaffiroborant
Guest
Have you found out?
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dianaiad
Guest
No?
ARe you telling me, then, that anybody requires a wife, a child, a husband, a niece…any other human to find salvation in Catholic thought?
I was under the impression that Catholics believed that one is saved through Christ–and not because he has connections to some mortal person.
Am I wrong about this?
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rmcmullan
Guest
I can understand if you don’t want your ancestors to be baptised for the dead but I would rethink withholding your records from LDS archives. That will only impede the work of genealogers world wide.
There are a lot of people who enjoy genealogy who count on the LDS archives. After having spent years doing research and coming up with a well documented line, it’s important to publish your work so other people can fill in the gaps of their knowledge and link to your research. True, there are other repositories of genealogical knowledge but the LDS archives are formidble and many people depend on them. (name removed by moderator)roving them will only make the work of genealogers easier.
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LongJourney
Guest
Genealogy is an interesting study. However, one can place too much importance on it. For example, in some cultures, only the most recent seven generations are culturally significant. And that is probably stretching it. Maybe only four generations. For the individual, understanding the culture of the family is the motivation for getting involved in genealogy.
Such a study is valuable for personal study. It should not be public. People should be valued for who they are, and how they choose to live their lives today
Such a study is valuable for personal study. It should not be public. People should be valued for who they are, and how they choose to live their lives today
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rmcmullan
Guest
You can’t make the decision whether or not it should be private or public for other people. They can decide for themselves and if they can’t, maybe then they’ll ask you.
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rmcmullan
Guest
Also, regarding public geanologies–have you read Chronicles? Didn’t Luke start with Jesus’ genealogy? They’re all over the Bible. You’re entitled to your own opinion but I wonder if you’ve done much serious genealogy work? Publishing is important.
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LongJourney
Guest
I’m sorry, but I was just writing this post, and had to leave early.
Who one’s ancestors are, is a matter of familial importance, not public importance. Can you imagine Abraham Lincoln being denied public office because Nancy Hanks’ ancestry cannot be traced? Public knowledge of a person’s ancestry, whether distinguished, or stigmatized, can lead to capable people being blocked from realizing their capabilities. It can also lead to personally ineffectual people being advanced to positions beyond their capabilities.
Jesus’ ancestry was important, because of prophecies that the Savior would be a descendant of Jesse. I Timothy 1 warns against genealogy.
as well as Titus 3:
I do believe that these scriptures send a self-evident message.
Who my ancestors are should only be significant to my family, in understanding why we are the way we are. I may publish who they are, however, in an effort to help people understand why I am the way I am. And, even then, it should be limited to four to seven generations.
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LongJourney
Guest
In addition, these scriptures in I Timothy and Titus, were a warning against Gnostic and occult practices and beliefs, which are present within the LDS faith.
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ParkerD
Guest
LJ,
Thanks for the inferred question, which led me to an interesting non-LDS commentary about those passages:
Clarke’s Commentary on the Bible
Neither give heed to fables - Idle fancies; things of no moment; doctrines and opinions unauthenticated; silly legends, of which no people ever possessed a greater stock than the Jews. Their Talmud abounds with them; and the English reader may find them in abundance in Stehlin’s Jewish Traditions, 2 vols. 8vo.
Endless genealogies - I suppose the apostle to mean those genealogies which were uncertain - that never could be made out, either in the ascending or descending line; and, principally, such as referred to the great promise of the Messiah, and to the priesthood. The Jews had scrupulously preserved their genealogical tables till the advent of Christ and the evangelists had recourse to them, and appealed to them in reference to our Lord’s descent from the house of David; Matthew taking this genealogy in the descending, Luke in the ascending, line. And whatever difficulties we may now find in these genealogies, they were certainly clear to the Jews; nor did the most determined enemies of the Gospel attempt to raise one objection to it from the appeal which the evangelists had made to their own public and accredited tables. All was then certain; but we are told that Herod destroyed the public registers; he, being an Idumean, was jealous of the noble origin of the Jews; and, that none might be able to reproach him with his descent, be ordered the genealogical tables, which were kept among the archives in the temple, to be burnt. See Euseb. H. E., lib. i. cap. 8. From this time the Jews could refer to their genealogies only from memory, or from those imperfect tables which had been preserved in private hands; and to make out any regular line from these must have been endless and uncertain. It is probably to this that the apostle refers; I mean the endless and useless labor which the attempts to make out these genealogies must produce, the authentic tables being destroyed. This, were all other proofs wanting, would be an irresistible argument against the Jews that the Messiah is come; for their own prophets had distinctly marked out the line by which he was to come; the genealogies are now all lost; nor is there a Jew in the universe that can show from what tribe he is descended. There can, therefore, be no Messiah to come, as none could show, let him have what other pretensions he might, that he sprang from the house of David. The Jews do not, at present, pretend to have any such tables; and, far from being able to prove the Messiah from his descent, they are now obliged to say that, when, the Messiah comes, he will restore the genealogies by the Holy Spirit that shall rest upon him. “For,” says Maimonides, “in the days of the Messiah, when his kingdom shall be established, all the Israelites shall be gathered together unto him; and all shall be classed in their genealogies by his mouth, through the Holy Spirit that shall rest upon him; as it is written, Malachi 3:3 : He shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he shall purify the sons of Levi. First he will purify the Levites, and shall say: ‘This man is a descendant from the priests; and this, of the stock of the Levites;’ and he shall cast out those who are not of the stock of Israel; for behold it is said, Ezra 2:63 : And the Tirshatha said-they should not eat of the most holy things, till there stood up a priest with Urim and Thummim. Thus, by the Holy Spirit, the genealogies are to be revised.” See Schoettgen.
Source:
bible.cc/1_timothy/1-4.htm
Peace and good day to all readers.
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LongJourney
Guest
Well, you can go ahead and use JS’s Urim and Thummin to make up genealogies to your own satisfaction, then. 
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ParkerD
Guest
No, thanks.
ancestry.com works quite well (hooray for the United States census records available online). The new FamilySearch programming is incredible and amazing, also.
findagrave.com is great.
Even a google search has often led me to exactly the information I was looking for. Then, too, the good old library research methods in Georgia and Utah, with books on historical information and useful indices, have proven very useful, as well as finding distant cousins (with Protestant backgrounds) who had felt the spirit of Elijah and had done tremendous genealogical research. They placed many hours of research in creating treasures for many families to know their heritage.
ancestry.com works quite well (hooray for the United States census records available online). The new FamilySearch programming is incredible and amazing, also.
findagrave.com is great.
Even a google search has often led me to exactly the information I was looking for. Then, too, the good old library research methods in Georgia and Utah, with books on historical information and useful indices, have proven very useful, as well as finding distant cousins (with Protestant backgrounds) who had felt the spirit of Elijah and had done tremendous genealogical research. They placed many hours of research in creating treasures for many families to know their heritage.
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dianaiad
Guest
Why? Aren’t the people further back than that important, too? Didn’t they have lives worth remembering, honoring and emulating? For instance, Thomas Jefferson was a bit more than 7 generations ago–shouldn’t his descendents remember him? ALL his descendents? …and forget him. What about the young solder who fought as hard, gave as much–but lived a quieter life. Doesn’t he deserve remembering, too?
I enjoy genealogy very much–not so much for 'plugging in the names," as for the individual stories. I never forget that each one of those names belonged to a person; a real man and woman who was born, had a childhood, hopes, dreams, lives, sorrows, victories–and they left lessons we can, and should, learn from. --good and bad.
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LongJourney
Guest
Not if they get off on an ego trip about it, and fail to realize that it matters most that they live their own lives with integrity.
I grew up knowing that there was something “interesting” about my family history, but not knowing what it was. Mormon bigotry made that so. Don’t I have the right to know?
I grew up knowing that there was something “interesting” about my family history, but not knowing what it was. Mormon bigotry made that so. Don’t I have the right to know?
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CatholicGuyNY
Guest
Yes, you are correct, Catholics believe that one is saved through Jesus Christ.
The issue I’m addressing is the idea that we believe that salvation is “strictly an individual thing”. Such an idea couldn’t be further from the truth in relation to Catholicism. We believe that we are part of the family of God, and that we help each other in our path to salvation. This is of course most clear in our belief in a ministerial priesthood. We also pray for the dead, pray for those that are in need of our prayers at Mass, and the Mass (also called Communion) is the ultimate expression of our belief that we come to God as a community, one family (not multiple divided ones) in Christ. In Heaven, we won’t be just “individuals” (separated from others), but part of that one family of God.
Therefore, it is incorrect to claim that Catholics believe that salvation is strictly an individual thing.
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dianaiad
Guest
Don’t take that further than it was meant to go, m’friend. By that I meant only that salvation is between the individual and Christ–that family and spouses don’t enter into the matter. You don’t need to defend doctrines I have not criticized.
OK, I see your point. You believe that we can help each other in regard to salvation through prayer, etc., I see where the communication error lies.
We believe that exaltation is reached by a man/wife combination; together. It is in terms of that idea that I was referring to ‘individual’ salvation.
…(going back and looking up) Good grief. I post a lot. this is #6000! Do I get a prize?
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catholic-rcia
Guest
I have just started reading these post and to this point, this post, is starts to unfold correctly.
Baptism for the dead can be discerned pretty quickly.
It just does not feel right from the start.
It helps pride to enter in to the camp, it keeps souls busy feeling as if they are accomplishing great things. It takes away from Jesus, the mercy he will shower upon the un baptized such as the thief on the cross. You do not have to dig to deep to find its origin.
“I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.” Joseph Smith
Rich
P.S
Its a way to inflick pain on those who love and know Jesus. But for those who love Jesus we need to see where this spin comes from and then love the LDS to Him. If we get angry with those who inoccently do these practices we are falling into the very place Satan wants us to go. We need to be angry with Satan, set our eyes upon Him with Jesus as our sight, not with the LDS.
www.utahmission.com
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flyonthewall
Guest
If I may ask, what exactly did Jesus bestow upon the thief on the cross?
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catholic-rcia
Guest
He bestowed His Mercy out of love for this man. Jesus always loved this man just as much as He loves you and me as His love is not measured like ours… This man was invited into heaven to be with Jesus forever. Because he realized at His last breath how much he was loved, how much He needed Jesus. He found Jesus by going down, not by going up.
Now many here on earth might say “I did all of this good work, I was with you every day and yet after all that he had done, this thief, he gets to go straight to heaven? (Prodigal Son - jealous brother) Both sinners like you and I
Now in heaven where true humility reins a table was being prepared for this one as all were so exited that this man, this thief turned to Jesus in the last minute of his life instead of turning away. …he just made it. shouts of joy throughout all of heaven! This is the kind of God I know.
Here is another example:
This short story is told about Franz Josef, one of the Habsburg Emperors. He was returning from a military campaign and sought refuge in a monastery. He sent a soldier before him to announce his coming. “The Emperor Franz Josef seeks lodging in your monastery. Prepare a place for him.”
The guest master replied, “There is no room for him.”
When the soldier reported this to the emperor, he was furious. He approached the monastery surrounded by his military escort. He called out the guest master and said, “Do you not know who I am? Ruler of the Austro-Hugarian Empire. I demand to spend the night here.”
The guest master looked at the emperor in his splendid clothes. Around him were the soldiers with their weapons, but the monk held his ground. “There is no room for you here,” he told him.
One of the soldiers drew his sword and said, “Sir, shall I kill this insolent monk?”
The emperor paused. Then he said to the monk, “No, I did not tell you who I really am. I am Franz Josef, a sinner.”
The monk said, “Come in, there is room for you here.”
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flyonthewall
Guest
This may be as you understand it, and I respect that, but there are some holes in this understanding.
Jesus said: "43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, **To day **shalt thou be with me in paradise. "
Yet days later at His resurrection He states: “…Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: …”
God the Father is in Heaven, but Jesus has not yet ascended to His Father. Where could He have been during that time? Certainly not in heaven. That time encompasses the “day” the thief was to accompany Christ to paradise.
We know from scripture where He went after His death but before His resurrection:
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
Jesus Christ, in His mercy, gave the opportunity to the thief, to hear the gospel in it’s entirety, and make the choice to accept or reject it.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
So, prison=paradise? Gotcha.
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