Mormons, Bible reference for the baptism of the dead

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RebeccaJ said:
So, prison=paradise? Gotcha.
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Thanks

Catechism
groundwork

1054 Those who die in God’s grace and friendship imperfectly purified, although they are assured of their eternal salvation, undergo a purification after death, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of God.

(where is this place…will Jesus be with Him through this process?)

1051 Every man receives his eternal recompense in his immortal soul from the moment of his death in a particular judgment by Christ, the judge of the living and the dead.
1052 “We believe that the souls of all who die in Christ’s grace . . . are the People of God beyond death. On the day of resurrection, death will be definitively conquered, when these souls will be reunited with their bodies” (Paul VI, *CPG *§ 28).

1053 “We believe that the multitude of those gathered around Jesus and Mary in Paradise forms the Church of heaven, where in eternal blessedness they see God as he is and where they are also, to various degrees, associated with the holy angels in the divine governance exercised by Christ in glory, by interceding for us and helping our weakness by their fraternal concern” (Paul VI, *CPG *§ 29).

1055 By virtue of the “communion of saints,” the Church commends the dead to God’s mercy and offers her prayers, especially the holy sacrifice of the Eucharist, on their behalf.

1056 Following the example of Christ, the Church warns the faithful of the “sad and lamentable reality of eternal death” (*GCD *69), also called “hell.”

1057 Hell’s principal punishment consists of eternal separation from God in whom alone man can have the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

1058 The Church prays that no one should be lost: “Lord, let me never be parted from you.” If it is true that no one can save himself, it is also true that God “desires all men to be saved” (1 Tim 2:4), and that for him “all things are possible” (*Mt *19:26).

1059 “The holy Roman Church firmly believes and confesses that on the Day of Judgment all men will appear in their own bodies before Christ’s tribunal to render an account of their own deeds” (Council of Lyons II [1274]:DS 859; cf. DS 1549).

1060 At the end of time, the Kingdom of God will come in its fullness. Then the just will reign with Christ for ever, glorified in body and soul, and the material universe itself will be transformed. God will then be “all in all” (1 Cor 15:28), in eternal life.
**“AMEN” **
 
RebeccaJ said:
So, prison=paradise? Gotcha.
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Paradise is a place where spirits go to await the resurrection. So is Spirit Prison. Which one it is that someone goes to depends on the kind of life they lived.
It is like school to teenagers. Some think it is wonderful. Others think it is a prison.
 
Paradise
catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=4159
I see no issue at all with the pentitant thief on the cross making it into heaven
Its pretty much everything I have learned about Jesus. The thief gives me hope. The theif on the cross represents you and I, as well as the prodigal son. If it did not than we would not die, we would just live forever as if the fall never occured. I have heard that it is best to think of your self as not better than one single person. This is one of the writing that was given to me as I came out of the Mormon thought into the Catholic way of thinking. How does it strike the LDS here?

Our Lords Interest
This is the campaign that is most urgently needed: to help each and every one to Realize fully, perhaps for the first time, the divine dignity that Baptism confers by engrafting us upon Christ Himself "

Lord did not come for the sake of those who are well, but for those who are in need. The soul that is lost interest Him far more than the ninety-nine that are just; the venturesome lamb that has fallen into the pit, far more that the flock that has returned dutifully home; the coin that has rolled behind the furniture, far more than the fortune of the cash-box.

His interest is in the prodigals: Mary Magdalene, the women taken in adultery, Zacchaeus the publican, Simon the Pharisee, Barabbas, and His companions on the cross. The preferences of all Christians should be of the same kind. But what integrity this demands, what moral beauty, what sanctity! Some, perhaps, may be tempted to escape the corrosive or weakening effect of such surroundings by avoiding to much contact with the masses, by seeking only the company of their friends, of those who think like them and to whom they feel more readily attracted. It is so much more pleasant to consort with those who are like you, and with whom you have ideals and interest in common.

Such a method is disastrous. If the leaven is to act upon the mass, it must be mingled with it. If it is separate from the mass, it forgets its proper task. It is a leading axiom in Catholic action not to remove good elements from the surroundings in which they exist, but rather to sanctify them so that they may serve to elevate and improve their fellows. In order to act effectively upon one’s surroundings, one must live in those surroundings; and, given the necessary virtue and power of action, the closer the contact, the greater the influence will be.

It is not literally true that is has been said of us: “You are gods,” and that we are to become “sons of God”? Let us give to these expressions their full Christian meaning. First and foremost, the baptized must learn to appreciate the incomparable privileges they have received by the sacrament which, in making them Christians, has brought the Blessed Trinity to dwell in their souls, and given them power to live the divine life, if only they will, and so long as they will. Let us lift up our heads and bear proudly the proud dignity of our Baptism.

How few of the baptized appreciate the essence of all revelations: that God dwells in the man who is in the state of grace? This is the campaign that is most urgently needed: to help each and every one to Realize fully, perhaps for the first time, the divine dignity that Baptism confers by engrafting us upon Christ Himself making us a living member of the Mystical Body of Christ, which is the Church, communicating to us the very life of the Blessed Trinity, making us partners in the royal priesthood of Christ and HisChurch, uniting us in a common kinship with all our baptized brethren by this spiritual solidarity, which is the Communion of Saints, consecrating us as living chalices, as living temples to the personal and social worship of the true God.
 
catholic-rcia said:
Paradise
catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=4159
I see no issue at all with the pentitant thief on the cross making it into heaven
Its pretty much everything I have learned about Jesus.
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As I stated before…I understand that is your understanding, and I respect that. For me, though, that doesn’t quite add up.
The thief gives me hope. The theif on the cross represents you and I, as well as the prodigal son. If it did not than we would not die, we would just live forever as if the fall never occured. I have heard that it is best to think of your self as not better than one single person. This is one of the writing that was given to me as I came out of the Mormon thought into the Catholic way of thinking. How does it strike the LDS here?
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I think it is safe to say that we view the thief, and the prodigal son, in similar ways. The main difference is, if accepting the gospel is required, then there will be none that will circumvent that. All will be given the opportunity to hear and accept it, whether in this life or the next.
One cannot accept the gospel unless they have heard it.
 
zaffiroborant said:
Please write what they will hear.
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While the gospel can be encapsulated into a few words such as: Faith, repentance, baptism, gift of the Holy Ghost, atonement, forgiveness, and the divinity of Jesus Christ.
It’s a little bit like math. You can boil math down to addition, subtraction, multiplication and division, but it gets much more detailed than that.
 
flyonthewall said:
As I stated before…I understand that is your understanding, and I respect that. For me, though, that doesn’t quite add up.

I think it is safe to say that we view the thief, and the prodigal son, in similar ways. The main difference is, if accepting the gospel is required, then there will be none that will circumvent that. All will be given the opportunity to hear and accept it, whether in this life or the next.
One cannot accept the gospel unless they have heard it.
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If I were the worst sinner in the world and I had the glorious opportunity to hang next to Jesus on the Cross and have the chance to have Him tell me everything I had done and then whisper the words “I still love you” even though I was hanging on that cross, nails through my feet and hands I would be the happiest sinner on the face of the earth as I turned to Jesus who is the entire Gospel.

Don’t forget that there were 2 hanging next to Him. It was the others chance as well. If one could not get it then, they did not want it. Jesus’ goodness was repulsive to the other thief.

One accepted Jesus, the gospel, the other did not. One went to hell to be forever separated from Jesus; the other on that day was with Jesus in Paradise. The whole story of the Ark is that the door at one point does shut. There is an eternal hell and there is an eternal heaven. God gives you the opportunity to choose one or the other just as He gave Adam and Eve this choice.

Mormons choose to take what Satan offered in the garden of Eden (Paradise) as a good thing in order to become gods, to be wise like Jesus over Gods word to them, that which would protect us forever and keep us in His Grace. . .

Catholics chose the same yet understand why the choice was wrong and how it brought sin into this world. We Have Jesus to get us back to Paradise. We have confession next to Jesus on the cross. Gods love is for Jesus, if you can engraft yourself to Him you to , because of Jesus will be saved from yourself, from what the devil offers you, and you will be loved by Jesus forever. The fall of mankind is in wanting to become a god. But there is only One and we are His beloved creation. Made by God from nothing we became something very special and get to know this. All praise and Glory to God and to His only Son Jesus Christ.
​
 
catholic-rcia said:
If I were the worst sinner in the world and I had the glorious opportunity to hang next to Jesus on the Cross and have the chance to have Him tell me everything I had done and then whisper the words “I still love you” even though I was hanging on that cross, nails through my feet and hands I would be the happiest sinner on the face of the earth as I turned to Jesus who is the entire Gospel.

Don’t forget that there were 2 hanging next to Him. It was the others chance as well. If one could not get it then, they did not want it. Jesus’ goodness was repulsive to the other thief.

One accepted Jesus, the gospel, the other did not. One went to hell to be forever separated from Jesus; the other on that day was with Jesus in Paradise. The whole story of the Ark is that the door at one point does shut. There is an eternal hell and there is an eternal heaven. God gives you the opportunity to choose one or the other just as He gave Adam and Eve this choice.
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I don’t recall anything in the scriptures about the fate of the other one. Can you point that out to me?
Mormons choose to take what Satan offered in the garden of Eden (Paradise) as a good thing in order to become gods, to be wise like Jesus over Gods word to them, that which would protect us forever and keep us in His Grace. . .
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On the contrary, LDS choose to take what the Lord has offered as a good thing.
Catholics chose the same yet understand why the choice was wrong and how it brought sin into this world. We Have Jesus to get us back to Paradise. We have confession next to Jesus on the cross. Gods love is for Jesus, if you can engraft yourself to Him you to , because of Jesus will be saved from yourself, from what the devil offers you, and you will be loved by Jesus forever. The fall of mankind is in wanting to become a god. But there is only One and we are His beloved creation. Made by God from nothing we became something very special and get to know this. All praise and Glory to God and to His only Son Jesus Christ.
​
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Catholics can take what the Lord has offered too.
 
flyonthewall said:
I don’t recall anything in the scriptures about the fate of the other one. Can you point that out to me?

God told us not to eat from that particular tree in the garden , the serpent said it was ok to eat from that particular tree. He offered wisdom and godhood right?

Catholics believe that this was a bad thing to accept what the serpent offered.

The LDS believe it was a good thing.

Jesus in the dessert showed us how to say no to the devil. He happens to be the only one who can say no. So we follow Him to heaven through His cross. Its black and white.
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catholic-rcia said:
God told us not to eat from that particular tree in the garden , the serpent said it was ok to eat from that particular tree. He offered wisdom and godhood right?

Catholics believe that this was a bad thing to accept what the serpent offered.

The LDS believe it was a good thing.

Jesus in the dessert showed us how to say no to the devil. He happens to be the only one who can say no. So we follow Him to heaven through His cross. Its black and white.
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I’m sorry, I didn’t see the fate of the other thief on the cross in there… did I miss it?

As to the GoE part, Satan spoke in half truths. What was the half truth?
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
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Ye shall not surely die was the lie. They did die, both spirituall and physically.

What was the truth part?
And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
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What were their eyes open to after they partook of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good & evil?
22 ¶ And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
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What would have been the result if Adam and eve did not choose to eat the fruit?
Sure the garden would have been “paradisical”, but it would have also been stagnated.
They would have not known good or evil. How can one be good or righteous, if they do not know what it is? They would have not been able to experience joy or happiness. How can you have joy without sorrow? Happiness without sadness?
 
I always found it rather odd that Mormons will sometimes take just a single verse out of the Bible and twist it around in order to make it mean something as evidence for one of their false doctrines when in fact the verse used was taken completely out of context and of course misinterpreted.
 
Good to see you here, Holly. Maybe help you get your mind off of other things. 😉
 
what are the historical evidences for the practice that is being referred to in 1 Cor 15:29?
 
Reference to the most Holy trintiy

**Now the only way back is through the tree of life in repentance, Jesus is this tree freely given once again, a second chance (repentance Baptism - Holy Communion – repentance- Holy Communion with Him ) **

What would have been the result if Adam and eve did not choose to eat the fruit?

**We would all be here but without sin. Think about the world without sin? This is not a test to find out how worthy we can be. This is the way it happens because we are not God. In order to learn love as created beings, in order to learn what the free gift given is we fall, we go down, we fall into ourselves, we die! We have the ability, the free agency to continue to live Satan’s lie or like the prodigal Son we can turn back to Jesus and His church. We need to accept His free gift and learn to live in His Wisdom, as He is this wisdom freely given. He is our life stream. He is what is good about us. As to the garden we have to give it back, the wisdom we tried to take and say get behind me Satan…never gain will I be fooled by you! Through Jesus of course. **

Sure the garden would have been “paradisical”, but it would have also been stagnated.

This is another lie!!! A very big one. Because if you believe that being in the garden of Edan would have been stagnated than you believe that sin is good. God gives us all that is good and it will never ever be stagnated. Come on…smile on my face… a friend ship kind of smile……Come on!

They would have not known good or evil. How can one be good or righteous, if they do not know what it is? They would have not been able to experience joy or happiness. How can you have joy without sorrow? Happiness without sadness?

Again this is the devils lie you are falling into. Admit it my friend we all live in this lie as we are all fallen. Look to God where there will be no sadness and no sorrow. For myself I long to go home, never looking back. Taking my experience’s here and hanging them on a tree. I myself can’t wait to be in that Garden. This time to stay. This world is a world of stagnation unless you stay close to Jesus. Jesus suffered and died because of me, this is the sadness, this is what we caused…"Father forgive Rich…now the un ending joy…"I am sorry my Lord Jesus"

Jesus…“Don’t worry about me as I am ok, I understand you”…
lets get you back home
 
I think what is going on here and other conversations that are circling around the same subject is the view of free will.

LDS seem to view it as a gift to willfully defy God, to follow Satan, and God will be ok with that defiance because we used a gift that He gave us “free will”.

The Catholic view is that God gives us free will as a gift in order to follow Him freely, but to willfully defy God is the definition of sin. To follow Satan is an abuse of the gift(s) God has given us. As He has given us everything, not for our own glory, but for His.

I don’t think LDS understand the concept that St. Paul portrays over and over. What it means to be ransomed, and call oneself “a slave of Christ”. It is a submission to God that is freely given, and can only be freely given because of the gifts God has given us. Most importantly love, and then followed by the use of other gifts, such as excercising free will for HIS purpose, not ours.

Maybe it is as simple as not understanding the difference between free will and self determination.
 
I want to apologize for that last post. I always go to fast as can clearly be seen. This kind of subject is too important to go fast. I did not even pray before I wrote it. That is my fallen nature. I want to take the time to respond to you flyonthe wheel in a way that would put God first and not my own thoughts first. At least a good honest attempt! I know what I beleive about it, but to get it right I need to re-study what the church says.

Not forgetting the second thief on the cross.

This fall of mankind happens to be my favorite subject but this thread is about Baptism for the dead. I will place that in the context of the fall. It would fall under prideful, accomplishment etc…and have direct ties to the fall in the garden. How Jesus’ mercy is not quit enough according to a serpent in a garden.
God Bless
Be back soon
 
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