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zaffiroborant
Guest
What does this have to do with point C.
Nice broad brush ad hominem there by the way, labeling those who don’t interpret and connect things as you think they should shallow and ignorant.
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flyonthewall
Guest
This is false. We have always maintained that all religions have a measure of truth to them, just not the fullness. We believe the proper priesthood authority is absent so there is no authority to officiate in ordinances, but all will have a chance at salvation…all will be given the opportunity to hear and accept the fullness of the gospel…including the ordinances performed by the proper authority.
Since A is a strawman, it doesn’t matter what B & C are, so you are correct, they are totally different things.
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flyonthewall
Guest
Which is the crux of your misunderstanding. You have incorrect information about the constructs of “Mormonism” so of course you draw in incorrect conclusion.
I think he has a point…strengthen your own faith.
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Cat_Herder
Guest
This is incorrect, as you know. The LDS Church holds that they go to the spirit prison, where they will be given the chance to become Mormons; if they dare to contend for their faith then they will be stuck in the Telestial Kingdom, which is basically purgatory, for all eternity.
Becoming like Christ is theosis, which is the orthodox doctrine. But that’s not what the LDS Church actually teaches, and you know it. Under the name of “exaltation,” your church teaches apotheosis–not that men become like God, but that men literally become gods equal to the Heavenly Father. Your church teaches a plurality of gods and that good Brighamite Mormons who pay their compulsory 10% tithe and receive all of the endowments become gods in the next life.
I am careful to say Brighamite because many Mormons who are not members of the LDS Church rightly reject what that Brighamite church teaches about the plurality of gods.
By the way, it is precisely because of the teaching on plurality of gods—otherwise known as polytheism—that Brighamite Mormonism is not Christianity. Christianity is a monotheistic faith; the Brighamite faith is not.
You found one, and I assure you, I am one of many. Which begs the question of whether your judgment is sincere.
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lax16
Guest
Hi Parker - Please understand that for Catholics, bible study is optional. However, I wish more would choose to get involved and I am including myself in this.
(a few questions -Is it good to study the bible out of context and neglect what was going on in early Church history or should we study that too? How about the writings of the early church fathers - and you know, the guys that put the bible together? The Didache? Anything else you think one should read?)
I thought this was interesting since Catholics are always, always criticized for their lack of bible study:
Just released: (edited for length)
Pope Benedict Speaks Out on the Catholic Church and the Bible
By Marilynn Hughes
Published Nov 12, 2010
Pope Benedict XVI Participates in the Liturgy
Encouraging the world’s Catholics to continue in their study and love of the Word of God, Pope Benedict XVI makes a public plea for private scripture study.
Although the Catholic Liturgy is filled with scripture, it has been a common misconception among some Protestant Denominations that Catholics don’t know or read the bible. But Pope Benedict XVI is challenging this view in a new encyclical signed November 11, 2010 - Verbum Domini or The Word of the Lord. “We must never forget that all authentic and living Christian spirituality is based on the Word of God proclaimed, accepted, celebrated and meditated upon in the Church,” Pope Benedict XVI stated according to the Catholic News Agency.
Misperceptions about the Catholic Liturgy and the Bible
Despite the misconceptions which are held by many Protestant Churches about Catholicism and their use and understanding of the Scripture, the Catholic Church utilizes more scripture in the Daily Liturgy than any other denomination.
Each Mass contains three readings from the Holy Bible. The first reading is from the Old Testament, the second reading from the New Testament Acts or Letters and the third reading spoken by the presiding priest is the Gospel of the Lord. All of this occurs right before the homily, which is the word used in Catholicism for a ‘Reflection’ on the readings. Other Protestant Churches might compare it to a sermon, although it is different because of this scriptural basis.
For those who attend Mass daily, they need only do so for three full years to hear the Bible in its entirety.
Even so, Pope Benedict XVI felt it valuable to write a lengthy encyclical on the importance of the Word of God and a renewed need for scripture in the lives of Catholics around the world.
Verbum Domini (The Word of the Lord)
Read more at Suite101: Pope Benedict Speaks Out on the Catholic Church and the Bible suite101.com/content/pope-benedict-speaks-out-on-the-catholic-church-and-the-bible-a307754#ixzz158LS7chA
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lax16
Guest
Can you please explain exactly when the proper priesthood authority was lost? Who was responsible for passing it on? Who dropped the ball? Why would the Holy Spirit permit it - did the Holy Spirit leave His people?
Can you please explain how Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery had it restored by John the Baptist - was John the Bapstist responsible for bestowing priesthood authority in the bible?
Also, how can Mormons be in the Aaronic priesthood when they are not related to Aaron?
Where is the Melchizedek priesthood explained in the bible as it is practiced by Mormons today?
Why are Mormon boys permitted to be priests and deacons? Is that in the bible? Who changed things? How is that a restoration?
I know it is a lot of questions, however, this loss of priesthood authority stuff gets mentioned so many times and no one ever explains it. Thanks!
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Cat_Herder
Guest
… after death in the spirit prison, of course, with the proper authority being Mormons performing proxy endowments in LDS temples. Thus, all Christian sacraments are worthless in the eyes of the LDS Church. Compare with the Catholic position that anyone may validly baptize and that Protestants generally have valid baptisms.
The LDS are completely closed to any legitimate exercise of salvation work outside the boundaries of the church. The Catholic Church is not. It is that simple.
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Cat_Herder
Guest
And you are engaging in partial and selective disclosure of what the LDS Church actually teaches.
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lax16
Guest
You know what they say “Utah Mormons are soooo different than California Mormons!”There are some older types that provide library help, but all the ones I encountered limited their assistance to the task at hand (how to run the microfilm copier, find gazetteers in the map room). I did not feel like I was being prosyletized at all (but then, I am kind of a unconvertable-looking dude in real life).
I will say I got a funny look once, when I met one lady there who introduced herself as “Sister” so-and-so, and I replied, “Oh, like a nun?”
I think she mentally assigned me to the “clueless” category after that, which perhaps spared me any faith-centered discussion.
Also, I have one famous surname that I research, which can sidetrack genealogical discussions.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
Jesus never made a distinction between salvation and exaltation. Why do you?
The Catholic Church has been teaching about the scriptures that are a product of itself, long before sola scriptura run amok birthed Mormonism.
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ParkerD
Guest
CatHerder,
At least if nothing else I can allay the misconception you have. I haven’t looked at the Wikipedia article (I think I edited a version a long time ago), but D & C 76 talks about the “terrestrial kingdom” which matches the beliefs in “salvation” of Catholics and Protestants except that they will not be in the direct presence of the Father, but will certainly be in His spiritual presence and be in the direct presence of Jesus Christ, who will visit them and give His glory and His love among them “for all eternity”–and they will have glory as the angels and be happy in that glory.
Also, “purgatory” does not match the “telestial kingdom”, since purgatory is a place of punishment for sins and the telestial kingdom is a place of resurrected persons rescued from purgatory and brought into a glory that is higher than the best of conditions on this earth as it now is, except the lack of close family relationships which they haven’t seemed to want anyway. In short, the “telestial kingdom” is sort of like the “rescue kingdom” for unrepentant serious sinners from this life who finally accept Christ in the spirit world (spirit prison).
Not “equal to Heavenly Father”, by any stretch of the imagination. Whatever you may want to call it, it is what John described in his vision, and is to gain the glory of the Son and joint heirship with Him.
as does John in the book of Revelation, if one adds two and two together to make four
I have limited time, and have covered every topic that has come up in illustrating and backing up LDS beliefs from the Bible, but if you would like to pick one I will illustrate my point by having a go at a Biblical based conversation with you. My only reluctance at this point is my time factor–but when I do have the time, I sincerely enjoy such a conversation.
C
Cat_Herder
Guest
But Catholics and Protestants don’t go there, do they?
Actually that’s exactly the definition of purgatory. Purgatory is a place of no sin or evil, which makes it much better than earth. However, those in purgatory burn with longing for entrance into heaven, just as those in the alleged telestial kingdom burn with longing for entrance into the celestial kingdom. The difference being that purgatory is temporary and everyone there enters heaven; the telestial kingdom is an eternal purgatory as no one there can enter into the terrestrial/celestial kingdoms.
Wrong. I wish you were right, though.
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zaffiroborant
Guest
A cursory look at Catholic and Protestant beliefs in salvation show your “terrestrial kingdom” as described does not match the beliefs regarding salvation of Catholics, or Protestants. You have participated in a number o threads here that have shown what you say to be wrong. Quit trying to frame our beliefs in your LDS lens, it distorts them.
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ParkerD
Guest
Cat Herder,
(1) It is quite clear that they do “go there” if they were repenting during their lives on earth:
Doctrine and Covenants 76:75 These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men.
76 These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness.
77 These are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father.
78 Wherefore, they are bodies terrestrial, and not bodies celestial, and differ in glory as the moon differs from the sun.
79 These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God.
To have received the Father’s “fulness” would mean to become like Christ and be a joint-heir with Him. To be “honorable men of the earth” means to be repenting and doing good among men, but not to have desired the “fulness” and thus not seeking for it.
(2) Perhaps you have mixed the Catholic description of “Purgatory” with your understanding of the “telestial kingdom”, but those are much different conditions. Here is the description of the “telestial kingdom” situation from Doctrine and Covenants 76:
81 And again, we saw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament.
82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus.
83 These are they who deny not the Holy Spirit.
84 These are they who are thrust down to hell.
85 These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work.
Nor does the LDS belief include that Catholics and Protestants, if repenting during their lives, would even go to “purgatory” at all during the waiting period before their resurrection.
As to whether any will regret their circumstance in those kingdoms, there is not a clear doctrinal LDS statement from the scriptures about that, but it seems evident that they will be satisfied that they received the glory they sought after and prepared to receive by their choices in this life and in the spirit world.
(3) Those references are about becoming “like Heavenly Father”, which does not mean “equal to Heavenly Father”, nor has it ever been taught in a way of meaning “equal to” although it could have been misconstrued by a few people.
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ParkerD
Guest
Zaffiroborant,
On the several occasions when something about the Catholic belief in the glory of the afterlife has been described to me, it has sounded like the “terrestrial kingdom” to me. So since you have a different view, I would be pleased to understand the specifics of how you describe the situation for faithful Catholics in their afterlife glory. (I haven’t gotten many specifics previously.)
K
KathleenGee
Guest
The Catholic liturgy and the interior of our churches communicate Scripture…as Dr Scott Hahn found out, Catholicism is full of the Word of God and communicated through various means, not just in Book form.
If the Church is corrupt, then you cannot use the Bible because the Church put that together.
I tend to draw to study the Word of God through the Mass, and here I get its full context as well as its application to life today. St. Paul warns us of endless arguments and I deliberately do not want to get into using the sacred Word of God as a tit for tat type circular argument.
About exaltation, that is due to God alone. We have our DNA in the depths of our souls to be in union with God and to do godly work in extending His loving care – which is also calling us to proclaim truth – to those in need.
I do not understand Mormons’ problem of not realizing their own and self-exaltation towards the rest of Christianity as describing us as corrupt.
I also see it grossly ignorant to call our priesthood corrupt. All of Christ’s institution of His sacraments – baptism, the priesthood and His church founded on St. Peter – and Peter dying in Rome…(and the Word of God proclaimed at Pope John Paul II’s funeral at the very spot where Peter died), the sacrament of penance instituted at the evening of the Resurrection to Pentecost, healing and matrimony --these have endured for 2,000 years through the priesthood.
And the reference to the perpetual sacrifice prophesized by Malachi – a sinner nevertheless – is fulfilled in the Mass, practiced in basic form since the beginning of the Church.
The other point Mormons are missing is – and this is coming from me personally – is that it is also hurtful to consider our Catholic faith and priesthood corrupt.
It is very wrong, a grave error, and it deeply hurts us to say we and our priesthood are corrupt. You cannot separate our priests from us.
If the Church is corrupt, then you cannot use the Bible because the Church put that together.
I tend to draw to study the Word of God through the Mass, and here I get its full context as well as its application to life today. St. Paul warns us of endless arguments and I deliberately do not want to get into using the sacred Word of God as a tit for tat type circular argument.
About exaltation, that is due to God alone. We have our DNA in the depths of our souls to be in union with God and to do godly work in extending His loving care – which is also calling us to proclaim truth – to those in need.
I do not understand Mormons’ problem of not realizing their own and self-exaltation towards the rest of Christianity as describing us as corrupt.
I also see it grossly ignorant to call our priesthood corrupt. All of Christ’s institution of His sacraments – baptism, the priesthood and His church founded on St. Peter – and Peter dying in Rome…(and the Word of God proclaimed at Pope John Paul II’s funeral at the very spot where Peter died), the sacrament of penance instituted at the evening of the Resurrection to Pentecost, healing and matrimony --these have endured for 2,000 years through the priesthood.
And the reference to the perpetual sacrifice prophesized by Malachi – a sinner nevertheless – is fulfilled in the Mass, practiced in basic form since the beginning of the Church.
The other point Mormons are missing is – and this is coming from me personally – is that it is also hurtful to consider our Catholic faith and priesthood corrupt.
It is very wrong, a grave error, and it deeply hurts us to say we and our priesthood are corrupt. You cannot separate our priests from us.
C
Cat_Herder
Guest
To receive the “fullness” of God actually means something else as we’ll see in #3.
The telestial kingdom is basically the Bosom of Abraham, which is part of Sheol (aka Purgatory) and not heaven.
D&C 132:20
Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from aeverlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have call power, and the angels are subject unto them.
Joseph Smith explicitly taught that men become gods and that even the Heavenly Father was once a man.
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flyonthewall
Guest
I guess that is a major difference between our beliefs, we believe that only those with proper authority can administer and officiate in the Lord’s church.
Since you believe that anyone may validly baptize, does that mean I can baptize for your church?
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flyonthewall
Guest
I find if funny that this type of accusation is made. It seems like only non-LDS know what the LDS church actually teaches, because when what we “actually” teach is brought forward by the non-LDS that make that accusation, generally it is not recognizable as LDS teachings…being so twisted.
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Cat_Herder
Guest
Of course, it is mostly the non-LDS who provide links to the LDS scriptures, the teachings of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, and so on down the line. So what you’re actually denying is the teaching authority of your own church.
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