Mormons: Can I get a straight answer?

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**Parker I found your answers to the questions insightful and straight to the point…thanks.

stormy**
 
Parker,

Another thing we Catholics are very different from Mormons is that we are very very very leery of feeling that emotion in the bosom…

We always being warned not to follow our passions and emotions…because they can deceive us…

What the Mormons call that feeling in the bosom, we Catholics call that consolation in the spiritual walk in perfection, the soul in union in love in God. When we are young in our faith walk, the Lord will bless us with all sorts of wonderful feelings and strong dwellings that affect our emotions…He is assuring us…We are always to communicate with our pastor/priest/spiritual director about such emotions to discern whether or not they are from God…we must look at the direction these emotions are taking us…do they conform to the spirit of unity in the Church, and the eventual ’ landing’ in Christ in the understanding and manner shared by the universal church???
 
Living out one’s faith is based on God’s will part of that shared by the Church–the public life, our beliefs, and the demands of our daily life. Many times it is not about feeling good, but keeping Christ before us as our Light in the darkness…going forward in the Cross.
 
stormy99 said:
**Parker I found your answers to the questions insightful and straight to the point…thanks.

stormy**
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Stormy,

Thanks for your kind comment. I sincerely appreciate it. (I like the blue color, too.) 🙂
 
KathleenGee said:
Parker,

Another thing we Catholics are very different from Mormons is that we are very very very leery of feeling that emotion in the bosom…

We always being warned not to follow our passions and emotions…because they can deceive us…

What the Mormons call that feeling in the bosom, we Catholics call that consolation in the spiritual walk in perfection, the soul in union in love in God. When we are young in our faith walk, the Lord will bless us with all sorts of wonderful feelings and strong dwellings that affect our emotions…He is assuring us…We are always to communicate with our pastor/priest/spiritual director about such emotions to discern whether or not they are from God…we must look at the direction these emotions are taking us…do they conform to the spirit of unity in the Church, and the eventual ’ landing’ in Christ in the understanding and manner shared by the universal church???
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Kathleen,

I certainly agree that unity is desirable. Sometimes, however, an appeal to unity may be an appeal to not consider Biblical teachings in their simplicity and straightforwardness. There is truly such a thing as the Holy Spirit guiding people through a “burning in the bosom” as the disciples on the road to Emmaeus described, or as the “still small voice” as Elijah described, and it is not just an emotional response–it is a spiritual response with truth confirmed by the “voice” of the Spirit to the spirit of the individual person, such that their innermost spirit feels “in tune” and enlivened, quickened, enlightened, and renewed.

When one has received this confirming witness, then if they will continue to live by the truths of the gospel they will never be able to be dissuaded because it is a far more firm foundation for their belief than mere reasoning alone or the persuasions of others. They know that God has spoken to them, personally, by personal revelation of the Holy Ghost. They are then unbendable, and they will move on a path toward gaining greater insights through prayer and study, living the gospel truths, repenting when they fall short of the best they can be, and thus growing toward sanctification through repentance and the grace and help of the Savior.
 
Parker,
I know even in parish council meetings, prayer is called to invoke the Holy Spirit. And there is a recognition of the Holy Spirit found in cohesion and shared perspective, although people may have to meet several times to grow in mutual understanding. And people who are coming into learning the walk of the Holy Spirit will have stronger and or more intense emotions.

So I am not ruling out emotive discernment, especially in a gathering of believers discerning the right path for a particular direction.

But what I am referring to is discernment that does not recognize the history of Christians. Or if Mormon leadership applying itself to standard understanding of Judeo Christian history…aka what was allegedly happening in the New World. There is a tribe of Jewish believers who maintain various customs near or within the Far East and are making claims they are a lost tribe. There is another group of Jews that are claiming to be so, but other Jews consider them as false Jews…that live near the Black Sea or within Russia…

The main movements I see of the Holy Spirit is bringing us to greater oneness of mind, soul, and heart.
 
catholic-rcia said:
Good stuff all

Parker as to your comment on Confession you are missing a huge part here. We do go to God the Father as it is a Sacrament in Christ Jesus. For us this is reality. This is why the Sacrament is so powerful for us Catholics.

Hope that helps

Rich
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Mormons can not understand Confession in the least because they see human beings as matroyshkas. Because of their wrong understanding of mans nature it is impossible for them to have even a glimmering of understanding. Their view of humanity reminds me of the movie Dark Crystal, but then most Protestants and their derivatives do. Confession is a gift, even my third grade RE students recognize it.
 
zaffiroborant said:
Mormons can not understand Confession in the least …
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Z,

Confession and doing penance with the involvement of the priest are residual from the Mosaic law, as I have noted, Leviticus 5:5-7. You are correct that Mormons do not understand why any church considering itself part of the New Covenant gospel would not recognize that such a thing was completely fulfilled through the Great High Priest, Jesus Christ, as Paul so emphatically explained in his epistles to the Romans and to the Hebrews. The priest is not an intercessor–nor is anyone else (not saints, not Mary…).

Christ is the One and only Intercessor, nor is there any intermediary between us and Him. He desires a one-to-one relationship with each and every person, and He will truly Intercede and be the Advocate for each person as they repent of their sins, through sincere prayer and changing their lives with His help.
 
ParkerD said:
Z,

Confession and doing penance with the involvement of the priest are residual from the Mosaic law, as I have noted, Leviticus 5:5-7. You are correct that Mormons do not understand why any church considering itself part of the New Covenant gospel would not recognize that such a thing was completely fulfilled through the Great High Priest, Jesus Christ, as Paul so emphatically explained in his epistles to the Romans and to the Hebrews. The priest is not an intercessor–nor is anyone else (not saints, not Mary…).

Christ is the One and only Intercessor, nor is there any intermediary between us and Him. He desires a one-to-one relationship with each and every person, and He will truly Intercede and be the Advocate for each person as they repent of their sins, through sincere prayer and changing their lives with His help.
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As I said you can not possibly understand Confession, if you did you would know that intercessor and intermediary have no place in Confession. But again this is due to your flawed understanding of human nature.
 
catholic-rcia said:
Good stuff all

Parker as to your comment on Confession you are missing a huge part here. We do go to God the Father as it is a Sacrament in Christ Jesus. For us this is reality. This is why the Sacrament is so powerful for us Catholics.

Hope that helps

Rich
Click to expand...
Parker isn’t missing anything here. Mormons do not see God the Father as we do. There is no true Trinity there.

There is God the Father who was once a man and progressed to become God. Though there are many others like him in the universe, this one just happens to belong to us.

There is Jesus the Son who was born (they’ll say begotten but they mean born) just like the rest of us.

And then there is the Holy Ghost.

They will tell you it is the same Trinity that we believe in but it is not. There are three separate gods in their trinity. That is why a baptized Mormon who converts to Catholicism must be baptized into the Catholic Church. Their baptism is not recognized by the Church even though they say: In the name of the Father, and the Son and the Holy Ghost.

The reason it is not accepted is because the underlying meaning of the words they use. You can say what you want and it may sound right but if what you mean is totally different from Church teaching then it will not give the sacrament.

They respect Jesus but they will never pray to him. Not for forgiveness of sin, not to thank Him in any way, or to ask for His help.

All prayers are to “Heavenly Father” who was once a man, who was born of spirit woman and progressed. And that is what Mormons want to do, they want to progress so that they become gods and have their own planet with spirit wives and spirit children.
 
Miriam,

All the points you have tried to make have been explained repeatedly and are not as you keep writing, at all, thus exemplifying that you have no knowledge of the subject of Mormonism and choose not to learn. That is certainly a choice you can make for yourself, and others can make that choice also, but as far as God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit being the Trinity concept as taught within the Nicene creed, that is a completely non-Biblical concept.

As far as praying to Jesus, the Savior Himself taught to pray to Father in Heaven, so it seems pretty important to me that He knew precisely what He was teaching and should be followed rather than not be followed just because it suits one’s fancy to pray to others besides Heavenly Father.

Peace to you and to all readers.
 
ParkerD said:
Z,

Confession and doing penance with the involvement of the priest are residual from the Mosaic law, as I have noted, Leviticus 5:5-7. You are correct that Mormons do not understand why any church considering itself part of the New Covenant gospel would not recognize that such a thing was completely fulfilled through the Great High Priest, Jesus Christ, as Paul so emphatically explained in his epistles to the Romans and to the Hebrews. The priest is not an intercessor–nor is anyone else (not saints, not Mary…).

Christ is the One and only Intercessor, nor is there any intermediary between us and Him. He desires a one-to-one relationship with each and every person, and He will truly Intercede and be the Advocate for each person as they repent of their sins, through sincere prayer and changing their lives with His help.
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Parker,
you have been studying the Catholic faith for a while. First I want to say you really should have a Catechism of the Catholic Church for reference… That way you will always get the correct teachings. Second regarding confession have you ever researched what Catholics call an examination of conscience?
There are so many sins we all commit even daily but without the Church I do not believe I myself would have ever really seen them as I myself do now. Like the habit of little white lies. Before I really did not consider them to be bad. But now they really stand out on my life. The closer one gets to the Holy Spirit the more one can see his or her own sinful nature clearer. Its not a good thing to see unless you have a solid relationship with Jesus. Its painful especially when you have always seen yourself as this wonderful person who loves to help others in so many ways.
The closer you get to God the more this is able to unravel. But trust me it is a very good thing. It’s the road to a type of cancer treatment, suffering, pain that is vital, so that Christ can cure you and I from our selves. This is how a sinner can become a Saint. If you have a pain in your gut but are afraid to hear the words you have cancer so you stay away from the doctor what good will that do any one of us.
Try the examination of conscience Parker, allow Jesus to wash your feet , try to understand Him in this light.
“A soul does not benefit from the sacrament of confession if it is not humble. Pride keeps it in darkness. The soul neither knows how, nor is it willing, to probe with precision the depths of its own misery. It puts on a mask and avoids everything that might bring it recovery.”
–Saint Faustina

My daughter, just as you prepare in My presence, so also you make your confession before Me. The person of the priest is, for Me, only a screen. Never analyse what sort of a priest it is that I am making use of; open your soul in confession as you would to Me, and I will fill it with My light. (1725)
–St. Faustina, Divine Mercy in My Soul

“In failing to confess, Lord, I would only hide You from myself, not myself from You.”
–Saint Augustine

“‘You told me, Father, that after my past life it is still possible to become another St. Augustine. I don’t doubt it, and today more than yesterday I want to try to prove it.’ But you have to cut out sin courageously from the root, as the holy Bishop of Hippo did.”
–Saint Josemaria Escriva

In the life of the body a man is sometimes sick, and unless he takes medicine, he will die. Even so in the spiritual life a man is sick on account of sin. For that reason he needs medicine so that he may be restored to health; and this grace is bestowed in the Sacrament of Penance.
–St. Thomas Aquinas

Three conditions are necessary for Penance: contrition, which is sorrow for sin, together with a purpose of amendment; confession of sins without any omission; and satisfaction by means of good works.
–St. Thomas Aquinas

Confession heals, confession justifies, confession grants pardon of sin, all hope consists in confession; in confession there is a chance for mercy.
–St. Isidore of Seville

The minister to whom confession is made is the delegate of Christ, Who is the Judge of the living and the dead.
–St. Thomas Aquinas
 
Parker,

Rich here is giving you the right advise…we are just going in circles. The Catholic Catechism will be of immense help to you…the theology of God, how Christ centric Catholicism is, the clarification of how Catholicism draws from Judaism and where it does not, Christology, angels, the sacraments, morality, and prayer.
 
ParkerD said:
Z,

Confession and doing penance with the involvement of the priest are residual from the Mosaic law, as I have noted, Leviticus 5:5-7. You are correct that Mormons do not understand why any church considering itself part of the New Covenant gospel would not recognize that such a thing was completely fulfilled through the Great High Priest, Jesus Christ, as Paul so emphatically explained in his epistles to the Romans and to the Hebrews. The priest is not an intercessor–nor is anyone else (not saints, not Mary…).

Christ is the One and only Intercessor, nor is there any intermediary between us and Him. He desires a one-to-one relationship with each and every person, and He will truly Intercede and be the Advocate for each person as they repent of their sins, through sincere prayer and changing their lives with His help.
Click to expand...
Mormons have to confess serious sins to their Bishop. They are essentially the kind of sins that Catholics would classify as mortal sins. Their Bishop cannot pronounce absolution, but will impose a penalty as he sees fit or convene a church court procedure if necessary. A Mormon can’t just pray to God and have their serious sins forgiven.
 
catholic-rcia said:
Parker,
you have been studying the Catholic faith for a while. First I want to say you really should have a Catechism of the Catholic Church for reference… That way you will always get the correct teachings. Second regarding confession have you ever researched what Catholics call an examination of conscience?
There are so many sins we all commit even daily but without the Church I do not believe I myself would have ever really seen them as I myself do now. Like the habit of little white lies. Before I really did not consider them to be bad. But now they really stand out on my life. The closer one gets to the Holy Spirit the more one can see his or her own sinful nature clearer. Its not a good thing to see unless you have a solid relationship with Jesus. Its painful especially when you have always seen yourself as this wonderful person who loves to help others in so many ways.
The closer you get to God the more this is able to unravel. But trust me it is a very good thing. It’s the road to a type of cancer treatment, suffering, pain that is vital, so that Christ can cure you and I from our selves. This is how a sinner can become a Saint. If you have a pain in your gut but are afraid to hear the words you have cancer so you stay away from the doctor what good will that do any one of us.
Try the examination of conscience Parker, allow Jesus to wash your feet , try to understand Him in this light.
“A soul does not benefit from the sacrament of confession if it is not humble. Pride keeps it in darkness. The soul neither knows how, nor is it willing, to probe with precision the depths of its own misery. It puts on a mask and avoids everything that might bring it recovery.”
–Saint Faustina

My daughter, just as you prepare in My presence, so also you make your confession before Me. The person of the priest is, for Me, only a screen. Never analyse what sort of a priest it is that I am making use of; open your soul in confession as you would to Me, and I will fill it with My light. (1725)
–St. Faustina, Divine Mercy in My Soul

“In failing to confess, Lord, I would only hide You from myself, not myself from You.”
–Saint Augustine

“‘You told me, Father, that after my past life it is still possible to become another St. Augustine. I don’t doubt it, and today more than yesterday I want to try to prove it.’ But you have to cut out sin courageously from the root, as the holy Bishop of Hippo did.”
–Saint Josemaria Escriva

In the life of the body a man is sometimes sick, and unless he takes medicine, he will die. Even so in the spiritual life a man is sick on account of sin. For that reason he needs medicine so that he may be restored to health; and this grace is bestowed in the Sacrament of Penance.
–St. Thomas Aquinas

Three conditions are necessary for Penance: contrition, which is sorrow for sin, together with a purpose of amendment; confession of sins without any omission; and satisfaction by means of good works.
–St. Thomas Aquinas

Confession heals, confession justifies, confession grants pardon of sin, all hope consists in confession; in confession there is a chance for mercy.
–St. Isidore of Seville

The minister to whom confession is made is the delegate of Christ, Who is the Judge of the living and the dead.
–St. Thomas Aquinas
Click to expand...
Rich,

I have not been “studying the Catholic church”–I have read comments by Catholics about their church, and have occasionally looked up articles in the Catholic encyclopedia to understand the beliefs or their basis better.

The quotes you have provided show again that confession places a “delegate” between the person and Christ, or has a symbolism of “medicine” or the symbolism of “good works” (penance) that show an origin in the Mosaic law. So we are indeed talking in circles, and I assure you that the kind of confession you are writing about is not the kind that was practiced in the church during the time of the apostles, since they understood and taught that Christ is the Intercessor and needs no priest to be a “delegate” for Him.
 
BartBurk said:
Mormons have to confess serious sins to their Bishop. They are essentially the kind of sins that Catholics would classify as mortal sins. Their Bishop cannot pronounce absolution, but will impose a penalty as he sees fit or convene a church court procedure if necessary. A Mormon can’t just pray to God and have their serious sins forgiven.
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Bart,
If by “penalty” you mean the person is advised not to partake of communion, or that their membership may be taken away if that becomes the decision of a church court and their decision is upheld by the apostles, then I suppose you could use that word, but it’s not a word I would use to describe the situation.

The bishop may ask for successive appointments to see how the person is progressing in not repeating a serious sin, but the confession was to God, through sincere prayer, and the help of Christ in overcoming the sin and not repeating it is to be asked by the person in their personal, heartfelt prayers without the bishop needing to “hear” those prayers–(and it would be more than a one time prayer).
 
ParkerD said:
Rich,

I have not been “studying the Catholic church”–I have read comments by Catholics about their church, and have occasionally looked up articles in the Catholic encyclopedia to understand the beliefs or their basis better.

The quotes you have provided show again that confession places a “delegate” between the person and Christ, or has a symbolism of “medicine” or the symbolism of “good works” (penance) that show an origin in the Mosaic law. So we are indeed talking in circles, and I assure you that the kind of confession you are writing about is not the kind that was practiced in the church during the time of the apostles, since they understood and taught that Christ is the Intercessor and needs no priest to be a “delegate” for Him.
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I don’t see much difference between the Mormon practice and the Catholic practice except that a Mormon might be excommunicated and need to be rebaptized to gain forgiveness of their serious sins. If a Mormon commits adultery for example there is a good possibility they will be excommunicated. After a time period of repentance they will be allowed back into the church if the church agrees. When they are rebaptized they are forgiven of all of their sins just as they were when they were originally baptized. A Mormon cannot be forgiven of their serious sins without first gaining pardon from the LDS Church. Then they can go ask God for forgiveness, but forgiveness from the Church comes first.
 
Why is a Mormon acting as though Mormonism is a form of Protestantism that has rejected a Priesthood?
 
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