Mormons converted from Catholicism

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Anziano said:
The Catholic response is that the philosophical underpinning that Platonism provided was simply a way of understanding the Trinitarian conceptualizations, and that the world was largely Hellenistic to begin with, and it was the vernacular at the time. This is erroneous, however.
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…and…you didn’t finish…what else?
 
Anziano said:
I cannot remember ever seeing it happen, I am not sure that this would mean it never happened at some point, particularly in all capitals.
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I was highlighting what you had said oh sarcastic one…
 
RebeccaJ said:
…and…you didn’t finish…what else?
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I am not sure what you mean…what else?

I answered your question, perhaps you could point to a Semitic source which would argue, outside of any Greek conceptualizations homoousios, for a similar strain of thought. I would be curious if you could find any similar philosophical underpinnings, let alone a specific Jewish one.
 
Anziano said:
I am not sure what you mean…what else?

I answered your question, perhaps you could point to a Semitic source which would argue, outside of any Greek conceptualizations homoousios, for a similar strain of thought. I would be curious if you could find any similar philosophical underpinnings, let alone a specific Jewish one.
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The obvious what else.

Catholics are confident that Jesus leads His own Church. We trust our God.

The Catholic view is the Council at Nicaea cracked a nut, in describing what is believed, using language of philosophy. We don’t view this as accidental. Divine providence.

Catholics are not Jewish, or ancient Greek. We are Christian first.
 
Anziano said:
You’ve never studied Qumran have you?
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Oh, did Joseph Smith also translate the Dead Sea scrolls with a magic stone in his hat? 😃 Like he “translated” the Book of Abraham? From Wikipedia: The translation by both Mormon and non-Mormon Egyptologists bears no resemblance to the text of the Book of Abraham as purportedly translated by Joseph Smith.

I noticed you did not address my statement on the secrecy of temple rituals.
 
RebeccaJ said:
The obvious what else.

Catholics are confident that Jesus leads His own Church. We trust our God.
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I do not doubt that. As do Mormons, Lutherans, Orthodox, Jews for Jesus, and almost every other Christian sect.

But the question was Trinitarians. As stated, I spent much of several decades studying early Christianity. If Greek philosophy were removed from the equation, Christianity would be a much different religion, so it naturally begs the question why pagan philosophy was the language used when explaining who God was, instead of the thousands of years of history God used to reseal Himself to the Israelites.

God spoke to Israelites for thousands of years, and they understood their God. But when Christ comes as the culmination of those thousands of years, Western Christians turn to Plato to explain who Christ was?

To many who have studied this, it makes no sense. Granted, some study it and do think it makes sense, so there is obviously some room for interpretation, but I am curious if you have made the study yourself?

If so…what?
 
RebeccaJ said:
The obvious what else.

Catholics are confident that Jesus leads His own Church. We trust our God.

The Catholic view is the Council at Nicaea cracked a nut, in describing what is believed, using language of philosophy. We don’t view this as accidental. Divine providence.

Catholics are not Jewish, or ancient Greek. We are Christian first.
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BTW, I answered your question in a timely manner, would you please do the same?
 
Anziano said:
That is not necessarily true. This is the conclusion based on a decade of academic research that had nothing at all to do with Catholicism at all. I am not sure how studying early Christianity and Semitic philosophy could be considered anti-Catholic.
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As a Catholic of Jewish heritage, and with a best friend of 20 years who has been a faithful member of the Church of LDS, I don’t believe it is right to charge Mormons with focusing their attention more on Catholics than other religions.

From my understanding no one is especially targeted by Latter-Day Saints with their message.

It should also be noted that over the past decade or so the Catholic Church and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints have enjoyed a more open relationship of genuine sharing and communication. While there have been moments in the history of both religions where either side was outwardly demonized by the other, the same is not true today. We cannot hold members of the LDS responsible for mistakes made by ancestors in their faith.

My mention in my post of anti-catholicism is limited to the scope of concentration of Catholic converts for the sake of bringing this up to Catholics, such as: “See how many of your people are leaving you for our church!” As I mentioned other evangelizing groups not related in any way to the LDS do the same. This can, at times, originate from a hold over from anti-catholic feelings.

This doesn’t mean that everything one hears or reads from an LDS member that may be critical of our faith is necessarily anti-Catholicism. If not mistaken, all types of discrimination and bigotry are contrary to Mormon belief and practice. Nor do or should they make claim to be experts in what Semitic thought fully encompasses.

However, members of other faiths must consider that they may not understand when they have used hurtful language in discussions with Catholics. Just as an LDS member is the best judge regarding what would be insulting to themselves, LDS members must not challenge Catholics on the validity of claims of finding something offensive to their faith. It is subjective to the members of that faith alone.

Instead of arguing the point, the best thing would be to stay on target and keep the discussion on the originally posted question at the beginning of this thread.
 
Anziano said:
I talk to people before they are baptized, what am I doing wrong?
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Hello Anziano,

I don’t know what you are doing wrong, but I know what another missionary did wrong.

About six years ago my family moved to Utah. I was looking for a new car and was test-driving a Ford when the salesman decided to make chit-chat. He spoke with a strong accent and was of Hispanic descent. He told me he recently moved to Utah from Central California because he had converted to Mormonism from Catholicism and wanted to live closer to more Mormons.

He then proceeded to tell me that the missionaries told him that his people (Hispanics) were the Book of Mormon people and that there was archaeological proof to back it up. He was so excited that his people were the ones mentioned in the Book of Mormon!

I said nothing, but I wish I would have told him that what he was told by the missionaries was a lie. There is no archaeological proof from the Book of Mormon. This guy could barely speak English but he knew enough to tell me this pile of lies.

Why would a missionary say this to somebody?
 
Hey Anziano, I hope you’re feeling comfortable here discussing your Religion! Mormans, JW’s and Muslims come and leave quite frequently, but I hope you stick around. God bless you in whatever you’re searching for.

Now my question: do Mormons believe that Jesus is God? I know they believe Jesus is the “son of God” but do they believe He is fully God as well?
 
Anziano said:
I do not doubt that. As do Mormons, Lutherans, Orthodox, Jews for Jesus, and almost every other Christian sect.

But the question was Trinitarians. As stated, I spent much of several decades studying early Christianity. If Greek philosophy were removed from the equation, Christianity would be a much different religion, so it naturally begs the question why pagan philosophy was the language used when explaining who God was, instead of the thousands of years of history God used to reseal Himself to the Israelites.

God spoke to Israelites for thousands of years, and they understood their God. But when Christ comes as the culmination of those thousands of years, Western Christians turn to Plato to explain who Christ was?

To many who have studied this, it makes no sense. Granted, some study it and do think it makes sense, so there is obviously some room for interpretation, but I am curious if you have made the study yourself?

If so…what?
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Well, why go for break offs of Christ’s Church? May as well be Mormon, is what I think. Churches fired up by “some guy”, doesn’t appeal to me.

Of course I have studied, I come from a Mormon background and continue to see Mormons like yourself who are looking through the wrong end of the telescope.

You have the anti-Catholic Mormon view, that Catholicism is made up of injected philosophy, creating beliefs that didn’t exist until Nicaea. It is popular with Mormons, and when I’ve looked at the Mormon “scholarship”, it tends towards cherry picking quotes out of context of the entirety of Christian belief and understanding, and a distinct propensity to denying the Holy Spirit at work in Christ’s Church. You must have this view in order to maintain your beliefs.

The Catholic view is, the belief existed, and Nicaea used the language of philosophy to describe what was, and is, believed. A nut was cracked, a glorious day for the faith, not the gloom and doom death of Christ’s Church as Mormonism paints it.
 
One thing I have not seen mentioned is the tight sense of community that the Mormons foster. I spent a lot of my life in the military, moving quite often, and being a part of many parishes around the country. While a few of the parishes made a real effort to incorporate new members, most did not (Here’s your donation envelopes, mass is at 8, 10, and 12.) Living in Southern Nevada, we have lots of Mormon aquaintences. The Mormons make a substantial effort to get everyone involved, especially the new members. For someone that is looking for that sense of belonging, and is not well grounded in the precepts of their religion, that is a very tempting offer.
 
Anziano said:
I talk to people before they are baptized, what am I doing wrong?
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What, specifically, do you discuss with converts before they are baptized?
  1. Do you discuss the multiple accounts of the First Vision?
  2. Do you explain why Joseph Smith tried to join the Methodist Church after the First Vision when Joseph was commanded not to join any churches because they were all “abominable”?
  3. Do you explain why Joseph Smith didn’t follow Section 132 of the Doctrine and Covenants when he instituted polygamy?
  4. Do you explain why Joseph Smith married women who were already married to other men (including apostles)?
  5. Do you talk about how the Book of Mormon was really translated using a stone Joseph Smith found at the bottom of a well in the bottom of a hat, which contradicts artwork published by the LDS church in its magazines and manuals?
  6. Do you tell them that the endowment ceremony was developed after Joseph Smith became a Freemason and that the endowment is essentially taken from masonic ceremonies?
My husband was a convert to the LDS church. Once I told him about these things, he was disgusted and was more than happy to leave the LDS church with me. He told me that if he knew these things before he was baptized, he never would have been baptized.
 
DelsonJacobs said:
As a Catholic of Jewish heritage, and with a best friend of 20 years who has been a faithful member of the Church of LDS, I don’t believe it is right to charge Mormons with focusing their attention more on Catholics than other religions.
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If this is in relationship to my post, please note, I never said Mormons target Catholics exclusively. They do however, target Catholics, and taylor their message to create doubt in a Catholic’s mind, and then use that doubt to their own means.

Don’t believe me, try searching out the internet for Mormon missionary blogs. One had the missionary frustrated because their Catholic target didn’t believe in a great apostasy, so they focused their attention to creating doubt in this person’s mind so they would believe in a great apostasy. They first needed to convince them that Christ’s Church has failed!

No, I don’t think for the most part that Mormons are doing this on purpose. They teach what they believe and what they believe is at its core, anti-Catholic, as their faith begins with calling all religions but themselves an abomination and corrupt. (See Joseph Smith’s first vision.)
 
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