Mormons converted from Catholicism

[TexanKnight]

It’s amusing to me that many LDS will say that truths can be found everywhere, non-LDS can receive inspiration from God, and that when one comes to the LDS Church to bring those truths with them, and we see that Freemasonry was incorporated into the temple Endowment. Yet, somehow, the “pagan philosophers” could not have been inspired in some of their musings, and the ancient Jews and Christians could not have recognized such inspiration, and utilized some of that language, found in their own, surrounding cultures, to explain and expound upon revealed truths?

I agree. I was told that the temple ceremonies were used in Biblical times. But, instead of finding the ceremony in Biblical times, I found it in Masonic Ceremonies. So then I was told that the mormons AND the masons got their ceremony from Biblical times. Yet, there is no evidence to support the blood oaths and secret handshakes in the Bible

The fact is, js became a Mason, rose ranks VERY quickly, attended a few ceremonies and abracadabra, he had the lds ceremony.

 

[iepuras]

It’s amusing to me that many LDS will say that truths can be found everywhere, non-LDS can receive inspiration from God, and that when one comes to the LDS Church to bring those truths with them, and we see that Freemasonry was incorporated into the temple Endowment. Yet, somehow, the “pagan philosophers” could not have been inspired in some of their musings, and the ancient Jews and Christians could not have recognized such inspiration, and utilized some of that language, found in their own, surrounding cultures, to explain and expound upon revealed truths?

Yup. Didn’t Joseph Smith say to gain wisdom from the best books? It may even be in the D&C if I am remembering correctly. So do Plato and Aristotle not count as having written some of the “best books”?

 

[NeuroTypical]

I just finished browsing through a paper written by a guy named Marcus Von Wellnitz. He seems quite sold on the notion that much ritual and symbolism that happens in an LDS temple, can also be found in various ancient liturgical customs from Roman Catholic and Eastern rites.

The Catholic Liturgy and the Mormon Temple

Washing and anointing (with oil applied to specific body parts in a specific order with blessings being spoken), receiving new white garments, the giving of new names, the use of a veil or covering for women’s heads, altars and veils in church buildings, the raising of the hands, hand symbols, the order of prayer, the prayer roll, ritual embraces to welcome the initiate into the community, ritual knocking (three times) with a hammer on the portal of a door, etc. I haven’t checked any of his sources, but his claim is all of that is currently done or was formerly done in various areas of Catholicism.

Lots of pictures from Catholic churches and cathedrals in Germany, Austia, and Rome. My breath is always taken away when I look through pictures of beautiful Catholic architecture.

 

[Stephen168]

I just finished browsing through a paper written by a guy named Marcus Von Wellnitz. He seems quite sold on the notion that much ritual and symbolism that happens in an LDS temple, can also be found in various ancient liturgical customs from Roman Catholic and Eastern rites.

The Catholic Liturgy and the Mormon Temple

Washing and anointing (with oil applied to specific body parts in a specific order with blessings being spoken), receiving new white garments, the giving of new names, the use of a veil or covering for women’s heads, altars and veils in church buildings, the raising of the hands, hand symbols, the order of prayer, the prayer roll, ritual embraces to welcome the initiate into the community, ritual knocking (three times) with a hammer on the portal of a door, etc. I haven’t checked any of his sources, but his claim is all of that is currently done or was formerly done in various areas of Catholicism.

Lots of pictures from Catholic churches and cathedrals in Germany, Austia, and Rome. My breath is always taken away when I look through pictures of beautiful Catholic architecture.

I don’t understand the author’s point.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I just finished browsing through a paper written by a guy named Marcus Von Wellnitz. He seems quite sold on the notion that much ritual and symbolism that happens in an LDS temple, can also be found in various ancient liturgical customs from Roman Catholic and Eastern rites.

The Catholic Liturgy and the Mormon Temple

Washing and anointing (with oil applied to specific body parts in a specific order with blessings being spoken), receiving new white garments, the giving of new names, the use of a veil or covering for women’s heads, altars and veils in church buildings, the raising of the hands, hand symbols, the order of prayer, the prayer roll, ritual embraces to welcome the initiate into the community, ritual knocking (three times) with a hammer on the portal of a door, etc. I haven’t checked any of his sources, but his claim is all of that is currently done or was formerly done in various areas of Catholicism.

Lots of pictures from Catholic churches and cathedrals in Germany, Austia, and Rome. My breath is always taken away when I look through pictures of beautiful Catholic architecture.

Which indicates there is nothing to restore, of course.

 

[iepuras]

Which indicates there is nothing to restore, of course.

Bingo! That is exactly what I thought after I read through the article. The article seemed to say, “Me too!”

So where is the apostasy? Nowhere. What did we lose? Nothing!

For all my time spent at the temple, it wasn’t all that fulfilling or “authentic”. I tried really hard to make it so. It just wasn’t. Mass, on the other hand, is authenic worship and fulfilling. I imagine it will be even more fulfilling when I am able to partake of the Eucharist.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I imagine it will be even more fulfilling when I am able to partake of the Eucharist.

Yes! If your time allows, participate in as much of Holy Week at your parish as you can!

 

[iepuras]

Yes! If your time allows, participate in as much of Holy Week at your parish as you can!

I plan on it! It will be great!

 

[kimg901]

Since my recent post was deleted, let me rephrase it. In my own opinion you are spreading false doctrine Anzi. That is what is wrong.

 

[truthsilence]

That is interesting. I have, as I stated before, studied Christian history extensively, and the philosophical underpinnings of most mainstream Christian sects rely far more on Greek thought, a pagan philosophical tradition, than they in any way associated with Semitic philosophical traditions.

I see a lot more of our beliefs in the early Christian experience than I even have in the Platonic conceptualizations of Christ. I consider the Trinity to be far more Athens than Jerusalem.

Hello Anziano,I am curious after reading your posts. Are you implying that the Mormon God is the One God of Judaism? The One who says there are no other God’s before Him, or after Him? The Eternal God? (meaning, there was never a time when God was not God, He didn’t have a father before Him, nor “progress” to Godhood?) Is that the God of Mormonism?

I am also curious, what do you say about the Word made flesh; He who was in the beginning WiTH God, who WAS (and is) God?

Catholics say, there is One God, three Persons, who exist in eternal communion with one another. God the Son (the Word) was fully revealed in the Incarnation of Christ, and is Co-eternal with the Father and the Holy Spirit. This is the same God who invites us to participate in that communion, in that very relationship. Yes it is a mystery, but that doesn’t mean we can’t know or understand anything about Who God is. However, such an understanding comes by being open to God’s revelation of himself, and by trusting his word.

So, I want to know, who is your God, Anziano? I truly want to hear it from you.

 

[TexanKnight]

I just finished browsing through a paper written by a guy named Marcus Von Wellnitz. He seems quite sold on the notion that much ritual and symbolism that happens in an LDS temple, can also be found in various ancient liturgical customs from Roman Catholic and Eastern rites.

The Catholic Liturgy and the Mormon Temple

Washing and anointing (with oil applied to specific body parts in a specific order with blessings being spoken), receiving new white garments, the giving of new names, the use of a veil or covering for women’s heads, altars and veils in church buildings, the raising of the hands, hand symbols, the order of prayer, the prayer roll, ritual embraces to welcome the initiate into the community, ritual knocking (three times) with a hammer on the portal of a door, etc. I haven’t checked any of his sources, but his claim is all of that is currently done or was formerly done in various areas of Catholicism.

Lots of pictures from Catholic churches and cathedrals in Germany, Austia, and Rome. My breath is always taken away when I look through pictures of beautiful Catholic architecture.

interesting that you completely whitewashed the points regarding the lds blood oaths, the secret handshakes, the secret names, etc. etc. please show me where THAT was happening in the Biblical temples…

 

[RebeccaJ]

interesting that you completely whitewashed the points regarding the lds blood oaths, the secret handshakes, the secret names, etc. etc. please show me where THAT was happening in the Biblical temples…

Whatever can be documented is evidence of ancient practice. What has no evidence, has been lost and those lucky Mormons, have it restored!

 

[TexanKnight]

Whatever can be documented is evidence of ancient practice. What has no evidence, has been lost and those lucky Mormons, have it restored!

a little self-fulfilling, huh?

 

[taylorf]

I just finished browsing through a paper written by a guy named Marcus Von Wellnitz. He seems quite sold on the notion that much ritual and symbolism that happens in an LDS temple, can also be found in various ancient liturgical customs from Roman Catholic and Eastern rites.

The Catholic Liturgy and the Mormon Temple

Washing and anointing (with oil applied to specific body parts in a specific order with blessings being spoken), receiving new white garments, the giving of new names, the use of a veil or covering for women’s heads, altars and veils in church buildings, the raising of the hands, hand symbols, the order of prayer, the prayer roll, ritual embraces to welcome the initiate into the community, ritual knocking (three times) with a hammer on the portal of a door, etc. I haven’t checked any of his sources, but his claim is all of that is currently done or was formerly done in various areas of Catholicism.

Lots of pictures from Catholic churches and cathedrals in Germany, Austia, and Rome. My breath is always taken away when I look through pictures of beautiful Catholic architecture.

This guy fails to make a point other than that the LDS sacrament meeting is somehow similar to early church worship services. Sure, whatever. On the other hand…

I just finished browsing through an article written by Mormonthink. They seem quite sold on the notion that much ritual and symbolism that happens in an LDS temple, can also be found in various customs from Freemasonry.

Masonry details in the LDS temple ceremony

I haven’t checked any of their sources, but their claim is all of the signs, oaths, and hand gestures are nearly identical to those of the Freemason initiation ceremony.

 

[PaulDupre1]

This guy fails to make a point other than that the LDS sacrament meeting is somehow similar to early church worship services. Sure, whatever. On the other hand…

I just finished browsing through an article written by Mormonthink. They seem quite sold on the notion that much ritual and symbolism that happens in an LDS temple, can also be found in various customs from Freemasonry.

Masonry details in the LDS temple ceremony

I haven’t checked any of their sources, but their claim is all of the signs, oaths, and hand gestures are nearly identical to those of the Freemason initiation ceremony.

Yep, that’s true.

 

[DelsonJacobs]

Maybe you can give me an example of Greek Philosophy used to explain the Trinity.

Semitic culture (my own culture as a Sephardi Jew) did not originally possess the terminology that later came to describe the connection between the Persons in the Most Holy Trinity. In fact, it is the subject of “personhood” or “entity” and “substance” that came from the Greek Church Fathers.

Facing an unbelieving pagan world that embraced a society built upon Hellenistic values, these Fathers employed terminology that could explain to those who valued Hellenistic logic and philosophy above all else. Most tend to forget that such measures occurred as a means of apology due to threats and opposition against the teaching of the Trinity. Creeds were not the origins of doctrine but their apologetic response. When a world of Greek thought challenges you, you must meet the challenge on terms they can understand.

Concepts such as substance and consubstantial union are metaphysical terms that are not from Judaism. Instead they come from the Gentile world, much like the languages Greek, Latin, and even English do. The Church employs concepts, languages, and even customs of the world to preach the message of the Gospel in imitation of St. Paul who wrote under inspiration:

I have made myself a slave to all that I might win the more.
To the Jews, to those under the Law I became as one under the Law
—though not being myself under the Law
—that I might win those under the Law.
To those outside the Law I became as one outside the Law
—not being without law toward God but under the law of Christ
—that I might win those outside the Law.
To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak.
I have become all things to all men that I might by all means save some.
I do it all for the sake of the Gospel
that I may share in its blessings.–1 Corinthians 9:19-23.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

I just finished browsing through a paper written by a guy named Marcus Von Wellnitz. He seems quite sold on the notion that much ritual and symbolism that happens in an LDS temple, can also be found in various ancient liturgical customs from Roman Catholic and Eastern rites.

The Catholic Liturgy and the Mormon Temple

Washing and anointing (with oil applied to specific body parts in a specific order with blessings being spoken), receiving new white garments, the giving of new names, the use of a veil or covering for women’s heads, altars and veils in church buildings, the raising of the hands, hand symbols, the order of prayer, the prayer roll, ritual embraces to welcome the initiate into the community, ritual knocking (three times) with a hammer on the portal of a door, etc. I haven’t checked any of his sources, but his claim is all of that is currently done or was formerly done in various areas of Catholicism.

Lots of pictures from Catholic churches and cathedrals in Germany, Austia, and Rome. My breath is always taken away when I look through pictures of beautiful Catholic architecture.

You do realise as an LDS you aren’t supposed to mention what happens in the temple? Not that I’m complaining, it’s hopefully a step in the right direction…

 

[Stephen168]

Semitic culture (my own culture as a Sephardi Jew) did not originally possess the terminology that later came to describe the connection between the Persons in the Most Holy Trinity. In fact, it is the subject of “personhood” or “entity” and “substance” that came from the Greek Church Fathers.

Facing an unbelieving pagan world that embraced a society built upon Hellenistic values, these Fathers employed terminology that could explain to those who valued Hellenistic logic and philosophy above all else. Most tend to forget that such measures occurred as a means of apology due to threats and opposition against the teaching of the Trinity. Creeds were not the origins of doctrine but their apologetic response. When a world of Greek thought challenges you, you must meet the challenge on terms they can understand.

Concepts such as substance and consubstantial union are metaphysical terms that are not from Judaism. Instead they come from the Gentile world, much like the languages Greek, Latin, and even English do. The Church employs concepts, languages, and even customs of the world to preach the message of the Gospel in imitation of St. Paul who wrote under inspiration:

I have made myself a slave to all that I might win the more.
To the Jews, to those under the Law I became as one under the Law
—though not being myself under the Law
—that I might win those under the Law.
To those outside the Law I became as one outside the Law
—not being without law toward God but under the law of Christ
—that I might win those outside the Law.
To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak.
I have become all things to all men that I might by all means save some.
I do it all for the sake of the Gospel
that I may share in its blessings.–1 Corinthians 9:19-23.

Yes, Christians used concepts that were originally not hebrew, but these concepts had been making there way into Jewish culture through Greek speaking Alexandria, home of the septuagint, for about a century before Christ. Some scholars believe they influenced some of the New Testament writings, including Paul. Considering most of the New Testament was originally written in Greek, I’m included to agree.

My point to Mormons is that evil Greek culture (philosophy/language/scripture) was already part of the Jewish culture of the first Christians.

 

[pianistclare]

Well, it’s Sunday night.
Wonder how the meeting went last night?
think he’ll post?

 

[DelsonJacobs]

Yes, Christians used concepts that were originally not hebrew, but these concepts had been making there way into Jewish culture through Greek speaking Alexandria, home of the septuagint, for about a century before Christ. Some scholars believe they influenced some of the New Testament writings, including Paul. Considering most of the New Testament was originally written in Greek, I’m included to agree.

My point to Mormons is that evil Greek culture (philosophy/language/scripture) was already part of the Jewish culture of the first Christians.

I agree with you as well.

The Latter-Day Saints, considering themselves to be the descendants of the Biblical Patriarchs, have a historical view of Judaism that is in sharp disagreement with the religious and secular history of my people.

Their claims to being of the House of Israel are not only impossible to reconcile through their skewed history but through DNA as well. A simple DNA test from me matches the paper trails and oral family history and confirms our place among the children of Abraham, but this cannot be said for them or their belief that Native Americans are descended from Semitic Israelites.

With no historical, genetic, linguistic, or cultural evidence to support their views of a connection with Israel it is no surprise that they fail to recognize the very points you make. Several members of my family had a connection with or may have lived in Alexandria in the Diaspora, and it is because of this that Koine Greek is one of the languages currently used in my Jewish family.

Their ideas on this subject are clearly unfounded.