MORMONS (LDS) what is this "great apostasy" that you claim to have happened?

[RebeccaJ]

Yes.

they can.

Before ordination, if not after. Ordained Orthodox priests stay married.

Eastern Catholic Priests also marry. (ie, these are churches in communion with Rome)

 

[RebeccaJ]

Rebecca J,
All of the Jews didn’t follow Christ and join the church he established by being baptized into the new church. I was talking about the majority of the Jews and the Jewish leaders, not every Jew. I should have clarified my meaning, but this clarification will have to do.

Does it matter how many Jews chose to be disciples of Jesus? What does that have to do with a “great apostasy”? Do you have records of who followed Jesus and who did not? I think you are making assumptions here.

What I believe is that until Joseph Smith prayed about the questions he had, even though other people had had questions they didn’t have sufficient faith and assurance in their own heart that if they asked God in prayer they would receive a sure and certain answer.

Here we are again, “they didn’t have sufficient faith”. How in the world would you know this and who are you to judge?? It is astounding, to say the least, that you believe billions of people over 2000 years never had “sufficient faith”. It is not even believable, not when you have evidence that is overwhelmingly against this assertion.

The Reformationists had sought to change the church to be more in keeping with the Bible, but the kind of faith required was not what they had. They still relied on their own wisdom–the wisdom of men, even though they sought the Holy Spirit as best they could and hoped for the guidance of the Holy Spirit in the changes they made.

The Reformationists were heretics. I do agree they relied on their own interpretation of the Bible, forsaking the authority of Christ’s Church.

Baptism should be by immersion,

Who says?

at an age of accountable decision-making.

Who says?

The gift of the Holy Spirit should follow baptism for the baptism of fire as Christ taught to Nicodemus.

Catholics receive the Sacrament of Confirmation.

There should be a lay priesthood.

All the baptized are members of the Royal Priesthood of Jesus Christ.

There should be twelve apostles to preserve the pure doctrine.

The apostles appointed Bishops, who have preserved pure doctrine.

And please, show me this “pure doctrine” that is preserved in your church that has no pure doctrine to speak of.

There should be no coercive teachings that bring people to belief based on fear.

lol, ok. Is this what you believe about non-Mormons?

The atonement should be trusted as atoning for the sins of Adam and Eve. Even though their sin introduced sin into the world, the atonement of Christ resolved their sin and made it so now we are only accountable for our own sins, not for their sin.

I think you do not understand the doctrine of Original Sin.

There should be attestations by the church leaders that they know full well that they are guided by revelation through the Holy Spirit, individually and collectively.

The Catholic Church has acknowledged and attested to this for 2000 years.

There should be an allowance for married priests and other priesthood holders.

St. Paul would disagree with you.

The doctrine of marriages and families should be upheld as bringing people into a situation where they can progress in a fuller sense, and thus be valued as something to be sought after and celebrated by all the church.

Seriously, this is now just getting into “what I like to believe is what should be doctrine”.

There should be a “kingdom of priests” in the church, “a royal priesthood.”

Always has been, in Christ’s Church.

The doctrine of being joint heirs with Christ should be as explained and declared by the apostle John in the book of Revelation.

Always has been, in Christ’s Church. As I’ve already pointed out to you, mormons err in the belief that you become as GOD IS. John never describes this.

You can find the true marks of Christ’s Church, described here.

**Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth **

                     Man’s ingenuity cannot account for this. The Church has remained one,                         holy, catholic, and apostolic—not through man’s effort, but because God                         preserves the Church he established (Matt. 16:18, 28:20). 

                     He guided the Israelites on their escape from Egypt by giving them a                         pillar of fire to light their way across the dark wilderness (Exod. 13:21).                         Today he guides us through his Catholic Church. 

                     The Bible, sacred Tradition, and the writings of the earliest Christians                         testify that the Church teaches with Jesus’ authority. In this age of countless                         competing religions, each clamoring for attention, one voice rises above                         the din: the Catholic Church, which the Bible calls "the pillar and                         foundation of truth" (1 Tim. 3:15). 

                     Jesus assured the apostles and their successors, the popes and the bishops,                         "He who listens to you listens to me, and he who rejects you rejects                         me" (Luke 10:16). Jesus promised to guide his Church into all truth                         (John 16:12–13). We can have confidence that his Church teaches only the                         truth.

 

[josie_L]

Which doctrines and theology? There were a great many of them. Still are.

Do you believe that the Arians, Gnostics and Nestorians . . . etc. were heretics?

You have got to be kidding. Ever hear of Haun’s Mill? The Extermination Order? Carthage Jail? Johnson’s Army? Winter Quarters? Every single Mormon who died as a result of the migration from Missouri to Utah is a martyr according to the definition of ‘martyr’ in the dictionary; they died as a direct result of following their faith at the hands of enemies. Why is that? Because Gov. Boggs wrote an official government order stating that any Mormon still in the state of Missouri after a certain date was to be killed on sight–man, woman or child. That order, by the way, was not rescinded until 1976. The only way they could stay is if they abjured their faith. They could keep their property, their lives and their wealth–if they abjured their faith. That is the absolute definition of persecution. Any deaths that resulted were 'in like manner as the early Christians were." Stoning? yep, that happened. True, the early Christians weren’t shot in the head, but that’s only because the folks back then didn’t have guns–and the culture back then liked to watch the bloodshed formally. The nineteenth century folks liked guns and ‘out of sight’ sort of murders. Different cultures.

I don’t want to belittle the experience and I am saddened that these things have happened but this cannot in any way be comparable to what the first Christians underwent for three centuries (we are talking of tens of thousands, possibly hundreds of. . . ).

Actually, I have found that nothing cements an idea quite so completely as opposition to it, and nothing is better for any religion than persecution. People thrive on it. It validates their purpose, their beliefs and their faith. After all, if they weren’t ‘true,’ then evil people wouldn’t be opposed to them, would they? It gets the ‘stubborn’ up.

I know it is bearing witness to the world, but I also believe that many more would come to believe if they were not so afraid to do so (think of extreme Islamic states).

of course, that there were probably more Christians because of the persecution than there were had there been none. Without it, Christianity may well have faded quietly into the culture and been absorbed into nothingness.

I didn’t say that persecutions of many a valiant Christian didn’t play a role in bringing about conversions, I do however, believe that killing them did dwindle their numbers just a little.

Your premise is that the persecution of the Christians was a negative; that it would have grown faster without it, and that the Mormons were not persecuted. First, that’s a bad assumption; history shows us that some of the best missionaries for a belief system are those who persecute it; as you have done here, people assume that a belief system that accumulates that much hate MUST be ‘true,’ or at least worth looking at. Belief systems that are treated with indifference don’t get close to the same PR. Once someone looks, then the beliefs themselves are attractive, the ‘exclusivity’ of the club is attractive (if one can’t be special by being rich, or born well…then how about by being hated by people you dislike? Now THAT’S pretty special!) Add to that the thought that you are going to get a reward that will be denied to all those who hate you, well…pretty heady stuff.

No, my premise is not. It is logical to assume when people get persecuted/killed to such a degree (quantitatively speaking) that there numbers will dwindle faster than the rate of conversions. And fear of persecution is a deterrent to some (think of how many Muslims or citizens under Communist regimes are afraid to convert). I also think your line of reasoning slightly faulty, for example, all the Jews who were persecuted and killed in the Holocaust did not create an influx of conversions to the Jewish faith.

 

[Stephen168]

Orthodox priests may marry
Stephen168;5357023:

No they can not.

Yes. they can. Before ordination, if not after.

Before ordination, they are not Priests

 

[jpaul1953]

JPaul,
If the word “it” in Matthew 16:18 were referring back to the word “church” rather than the word “rock”, then I would respond that the word “church” refers to the group of people or “collective body of believers” who would be joining the organization that the apostles would be continuing to establish and carry on. I think, however, that the word “it” is referring back to the word “rock,” and as I had already written in an earlier post, I think Peter would teach that that word “rock” was referring to Christ, as Peter explains in a similar way when he quotes the Old Testament about the “chief corner stone” in his epistle, 1 Peter 2:6-8.

If the word “church” means the collective body of believers, then the way this group of believers prevails against the gates of hell is by (1) relying on Christ who is the chief corner stone of their faith and the author of their Salvation, and by (2) getting the same witness that Jesus is indeed the promised Christ, which witness Peter had expressed in verse 17.

Christ also will hold the keys to hell and open the gates of hell at the end of the Millenium, so He will prevail against the gates of hell and the powers of darkness, and let the prisoners out of their prison because they will finally bow the knee and confess (willingly without compulsion) that He is their Savior also. Satan will have been vanquished, and Christ will have been victorious as He promised.

Of course there are no “historical claims” from books of that time period, other than the fact that the apostles wrote in their epistles trying to keep the followers of the church consistent in doctrinal purity, and expressed frustration and concern about some who were going astray or leading others astray. The changes were gradual, not as though someone turned out the lights all of a sudden. But the people doing the “writing” were the same people who were involved to some extent in the changes, so they either wouldn’t see it or wouldn’t acknowledge it and write about it.

I have sought to write earnestly and sincerely about what the Holy Ghost has confirmed to me as truthful witness from God about the doctrines of the gospel. I may not have expressed myself well, but I’ve tried. I respect the beliefs of your church, and the many good things it does as an institution as well as its members do throughout the world.

You’re full of hot air and alot of it. You are asheep in wolf’s clothing. Now Simon Peter is an it. Remember I said you can only pull away the weakest ones with your garble.

You are only on this web page to spread your ridiculous lies.

 

[dianaiad]

I think you missed the point that was being conveyed in that post.

(thinking)

No, I don’t think that I did. The point being made was a strict argumentum ad numerum. I turned it around.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I turned it around.

So that’s what you call it.

 

[dianaiad]

No, my premise is not. It is logical to assume when people get persecuted/killed to such a degree (quantitatively speaking) that there numbers will dwindle faster than the rate of conversions. And fear of persecution is a deterrent to some (think of how many Muslims or citizens under Communist regimes are afraid to convert). I also think your line of reasoning slightly faulty, for example, all the Jews who were persecuted and killed in the Holocaust did not create an influx of conversions to the Jewish faith.

Ah, but your logic is faulty in that this obviously did not happen to the early Christians, did it? Their numbers went consistently up, not down. In fact, about the only example of persecution that actually did what it was intended to do (that is, eliminate the ‘problem’) was what Innocent III did to the Albigensians. It took some doing (and the complete elimination of the entire city including anybody who lived next to, knew, bought from, sold to, or even waved to in passing, an Albegensian) but they managed to put paid to that one. I guess the Christians took the persecution lesson and perfected it pretty thoroughly.

The one thing that those who went after the Albegensians did learn was that the sort of inventive tortures inflicted upon earlier Christian martyrs was unwise; better just to kill 'em and get it over with.

Even today Christians point to the early martyrs with pride…the thought that they would submit to the sort of horrors inflicted upon them for nothing is unacceptable. Christianity MUST then, be true; otherwise there is no point to any of it, at all. The opposite side of that coin, of course, is that equally horrific things done to those with whose religious views one disagrees has got to be attributed to something else, or downplayed in some way, or turned around so as to seem like just retribution; something to take the ‘martyr’ out of the martyrdom; because if persecution can happen to people who are wrong in their beliefs, then persecution simply is horror without glory no matter who suffers it.

Oh, as to your point about the Jews? I have to hand it to you; that’s one of the slickest examples of Godwin’s law I’ve seen. However, your point regarding them is incorrect for two reasons: first, since Jews do not go after converts; it would be very much out of character for them to use this as a proselyting tool. Second, they are still here; they have survived as a people, and it might even be argued that six million of them bought their homeland with their lives. Can you honestly say that, without the Holocaust, Israel would exist?

But since you bring up the Jews, I think, rather than support your point, their existence supports mine; Jews have been persecuted for thousands of years. They have been separated out as a people, excluded from the mainstream, persecuted, used as scapegoats…everything that could possibly be done to make them a separate and ‘inferior’ people WAS done. Because of this, because of their own beliefs and need to band together for protection and fellowship (and the fact that everybody else forced them together away from mainstream society) they have endured. They’ve been tempered, hardened, and forged into a people that have a core of being that no other group in the world has.

But you know something? Two generations of acceptance into US society may do what thousands of years of persecution did not do. Thousands of Jews nowadays may pay lip service to their religion, and make wry comments about their background, and even be proud of it—even as they eat the ham sandwich and open their stores on Saturdays. They will have the bris, the bar mitzva…and Christmas day. They will leave off the yarmulke, the prayer shawl, and never learn Hebrew…that’s very sad.

Y’know, I read of an incident where 300 odd Christians were ranged around a fire pit and told that if they did not worship Ceasar as a god, that they would be thrown into the fire. Every one of them then voluntarily jumped into the pit, refusing to so worship. (I have no idea whether this is a true story or not.)

So they became martyrs. Now if the people around them had simply allowed those people to worship as they wanted to, been accepted into the society within which they dwelt, it’s almost a surety that half of them would eventually have forsaken their faith and gone back to the old ways. As it is, none of them did, and those Christians who heard of their sacrifice were bolstered in their beliefs; surely only Satan himself would do stuff like this to other people, and thus only the righteous could possibly be the targets of it.

…and so, the church grew. You would say 'in spite of…" I think…in large part ‘because of’ that persecution.

 

[dianaiad]

Before ordination, they are not Priests

I love it.

So…(and I don’t know this, since I haven’t asked an Orthodox priest about it; I’m just going by what you are saying here) an Eastern Orthodox man who marries before he is ordained remains married, but a man who is ordained before he marries gives up his right to marry.

As in…there is no marriage or giving in marriage in the priesthood?

That could be a rather useful analogy, actually, the next time we speak of the LDS notion of marriage, family—and heaven.

 

[dianaiad]

So that’s what you call it.

You COULD refer to it as ‘putting a mirror up to it,’ and be a little more accurate.

 

[RebeccaJ]

What, too hard to comprehend that the leaders of God’s Church don’t need to have 33 wives in order satisfy their lusts at all times?

Maybe Diana, just maybe, we believe our clergy follow the example of Jesus Christ.

When choosing between the two scenarios…let’s see…I’ll follow the Church who teaches holiness, not eternal lust and the satisfaction thereof.

 

[RebeccaJ]

You COULD refer to it as ‘putting a mirror up to it,’ and be a little more accurate.

I’ll think I’ll call it what it is, a failure to listen.

 

[Zundrah]

I’ll think I’ll call it what it is, a failure to listen.

The mormons…they try to brain wash us!:hypno:

Thankfully we are not easily lead!:bounce:

Go Rebecca - :bible1:

 

[ParkerD]

Does it matter how many Jews chose to be disciples of Jesus? What does that have to do with a “great apostasy”? Do you have records of who followed Jesus and who did not? I think you are making assumptions here.

Here we are again, “they didn’t have sufficient faith”. How in the world would you know this and who are you to judge?? It is astounding, to say the least, that you believe billions of people over 2000 years never had “sufficient faith”. It is not even believable, not when you have evidence that is overwhelmingly against this assertion.

The Reformationists were heretics. I do agree they relied on their own interpretation of the Bible, forsaking the authority of Christ’s Church.

Who says?

Who says?

Catholics receive the Sacrament of Confirmation.

All the baptized are members of the Royal Priesthood of Jesus Christ.

The apostles appointed Bishops, who have preserved pure doctrine.

And please, show me this “pure doctrine” that is preserved in your church that has no pure doctrine to speak of.

lol, ok. Is this what you believe about non-Mormons?

I think you do not understand the doctrine of Original Sin.

The Catholic Church has acknowledged and attested to this for 2000 years.

St. Paul would disagree with you.

Seriously, this is now just getting into “what I like to believe is what should be doctrine”.

Always has been, in Christ’s Church.

                     Jesus assured the apostles and their successors, the popes and the bishops, "He who listens to you listens to me, and he who rejects you rejects             me" (Luke 10:16). Jesus promised to guide his Church into all truth                         (John 16:12–13). We can have confidence that his Church teaches only the                  truth.

Hi, Rebecca,
You win and always will. You have every conceivable right and can come up with every conceivable justification to believe you have the correct understanding of every verse in the Bible. There is no need for me to list scriptures that infer otherwise about any of the things I mentioned. Theosis was already discussed, and that doctrine still comes across in various ways. Any verse I list will not be explicit in a way that will not allow whatever you want to make of them, of course. That has been a point I have tried to make all along here. You have what you want, and it leads to good things generally with the Bible in hand for the reading and the following of it. Have a nice day.

 

[Stephen168]

What, too hard to comprehend that the leaders of God’s Church don’t need to have 33 wives in order satisfy their lusts at all times?

Maybe Diana, just maybe, we believe our clergy follow the example of Jesus Christ.

When choosing between the two scenarios…let’s see…I’ll follow the Church who teaches holiness, not eternal lust and the satisfaction thereof.

I’m not sure why Mormons like to paint a picture of some big divide between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox when compared to 19th century American invented religions that have a ‘religious belief’ in a Great Apostasy; Catholic and Orthodox are almost the same. (I say a religious belief because it is not a historical fact.)

 

[Zundrah]

I’m not sure why Mormons like to paint a picture of some big divide between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox when compared to 19th century American invented religions that have a ‘religious belief’ in a Great Apostasy; Catholic and Orthodox are almost the same. (I say a religious belief because it is not a historical fact.)

MORMONS LOVE TO MAKE OUT THAT PROTESTANTS AND CATHOLICS ARE FURTHER DIVIDED THAN THEY ACTUALLY ARE - IT GIVES THE MORMONS A CHANCE TO START PENALIZING ONE SIDE.

Lord, do away with the LDS church, full of fantasy and science fiction…

 

[MatthewCrossman]

So how exactly did the catholic church “loose” the keys to the kingdom due to a “great apostasy”?

Turning this whole thing back to the original question…why have we no proof such an apostasy occurred?

 

[Zundrah]

Turning this whole thing back to the original question…why have we no proof such an apostasy occurred?

Because it never did… The Mormons never have evidence but wait for a moment because I have some thing that I will paste here for you to see. A Mormon explaining how the apostasy happened. I minuet and I will be back, MatthewCrossman!

 

[Zundrah]

Turning this whole thing back to the original question…why have we no proof such an apostasy occurred?

I’m back, here it is -

AllAboutMormons.com Webmaster from La Jolla, California:

Peter
The apostle Peter, the leader of Christ’s ancient church after the Savior’s death.

**Hi Zundrah. Mormons do not believe the “Great Apostasy” occurred during Peter’s lifetime. We believe that Christ gave the keys of the kingdom to Peter, as described in Matthew 16:19, and that he held those keys until his death.

Following the death of the apostles, Christendom was in crisis. Many disperse Christian congregations were departing from Christ’s gospel, as described in multiple Bible verses (see, for example, 2 Timothy 1:15, Galatians 1:6, 1 Timothy 1:6-7, Galatians 2:4, 1 Corinthians 1:11-13, 2 Corinthians 11:13-15, 2 Timothy 2:16-18, Titus 1:10-11, 1 John 2:18, and Jude 1:3-4). Outside influences like the Greek and Roman empires began to taint Christ’s original teachings, as most objective biblical scholars will attest. Many noble Christians tried valiantly to preserve Christ’s original authority, the keys He’d given to Peter, but they could not stem the tide of Hellenization and fragmentation. Consequently, the keys of the kingdom were taken from the Earth. Noble Christians continued to keep many of Christ’s teachings, but, in the absence of the keys and in the absence of direct revelation from God, the church slowly drifted from Christ’s original organization. This departure from Christ’s original church is called the “Great Apostasy.”**

To learn more about the apostasy and how Christ restored His church in our days, please read my article entitled, “Apostasy/Restoration.” For additional Bible verses that describe the apostasy, please see my page entitled “Scripture-Study List: The Great Apostasy.”

 

[MatthewCrossman]

I’m back, here it is -

AllAboutMormons.com Webmaster from La Jolla, California:

Peter
The apostle Peter, the leader of Christ’s ancient church after the Savior’s death.

**Hi Zundrah. Mormons do not believe the “Great Apostasy” occurred during Peter’s lifetime. We believe that Christ gave the keys of the kingdom to Peter, as described in Matthew 16:19, and that he held those keys until his death.

Following the death of the apostles, Christendom was in crisis. Many disperse Christian congregations were departing from Christ’s gospel, as described in multiple Bible verses (see, for example, 2 Timothy 1:15, Galatians 1:6, 1 Timothy 1:6-7, Galatians 2:4, 1 Corinthians 1:11-13, 2 Corinthians 11:13-15, 2 Timothy 2:16-18, Titus 1:10-11, 1 John 2:18, and Jude 1:3-4). Outside influences like the Greek and Roman empires began to taint Christ’s original teachings, as most objective biblical scholars will attest. Many noble Christians tried valiantly to preserve Christ’s original authority, the keys He’d given to Peter, but they could not stem the tide of Hellenization and fragmentation. Consequently, the keys of the kingdom were taken from the Earth. Noble Christians continued to keep many of Christ’s teachings, but, in the absence of the keys and in the absence of direct revelation from God, the church slowly drifted from Christ’s original organization. This departure from Christ’s original church is called the “Great Apostasy.”**

To learn more about the apostasy and how Christ restored His church in our days, please read my article entitled, “Apostasy/Restoration.” For additional Bible verses that describe the apostasy, please see my page entitled “Scripture-Study List: The Great Apostasy.”

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." --Matt. 28:19-20.

Would our Lord allow his church to become so corrupted after saying the gates of hell would not prevail against it? And even if that was the case, would he really wait 1800-plus years to enact a ‘restoration’ using a man charged and found guilty of using occultic seer stones; a man who was a known Freemason; and a man who was considered by his own mother, no less, to be quite the exaggerator?

Blessings,

Matt.