Mormons: this is a BIG DEAL

[mfbukowski]

As LDS my understanding and belief is that God is and will always be infinitely superior to us in every way in that each of his creations adds glory to Him as well as each of his children who return with honor add glory to Him, we will never come to a state of equalness HE will always be our Father and God as Jesus will always be our Savior and God no one can and will take their place

Yes - correct. And he is infinite now in every way we can understand. We take anything else as speculation and take it on faith – that God was once as we are now is taken on faith and cannot in principle be proven. To us he is infinite and eternal and we can literally “KNOW” nothing else.

 

[mfbukowski]

What do you make of this?
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=4071918&post4071918

I have been into this Ain Soph stuff for a while, and I am sure there is something to it. I think it is an apostate understanding of what we believe. It is not exactly what we believe, but very similar.

It is also interesting that Valintinus is the guy we celebrate on Valentine’s day. He believed in eternal marriage. (that is an over simplification, but is essentially true)

 

[mfbukowski]

I kept thinking back to the “answer” that I got when I first prayed, but didn’t really ever feel anything else afterwords.
I figured that I felt it once so it must be true, so I will continue to follow blindly.

This is the key. So sorry. You probably should not have been baptized in the first place.

A true testimony grows, but you did not know that. You never had one to begin with.

 

[mfbukowski]

Not at all. You obviously don’t need MY permission, but my opinion, for what it is worth, is that you should go where you are lead. Seek the spirit though.

The church is not meant for everyone.

 

[C2M2C]

This is the key. So sorry. You probably should not have been baptized in the first place.

A true testimony grows, but you did not know that. You never had one to begin with.

But I was convinced at the time. If a testimony is supposed to grow (which I agree that it should) then why do the missionaries ask you if you will get baptized at the conclusion of the second discussion?
What about 18, now going on 19 years of faithful service trying to get that answer again? I actually believe that it was David O McKay that said if you don’t have a testimony fake it until you get one. Not only did I believe, I wanted to believe. I didn’t constantly try to receive another answer until after things started to not add up. And what about the temple where we are supposed to get answers? Nothing there either.

 

[perez639]

PaulDupre;4297350:

Man’s purpose in life is to learn the nature and kind of being that God is and then, by conformity to his laws and ordinances, to progress to that high state of exaltation wherein man becomes perfect as the Father is perfect.

The section outlined in bold is so disturbing! We will never be as perfect as our Heavenly Father!!!

They are so brainwashed that they cant even think objectively, especially anything pertaining to religion. If Joseph Smith didnt put it in the book of mormon it isnt so and anything that questions the book is simply incorrect.

Man, I almost became a mormon a few years ago and by the grace of God didnt!

 

[mfbukowski]

I wonder how many LDS couples would have a similar experience if they were honest with one another about whether they “know the church is true”.

When I was LDS (active in the extreme) I realized it was all a sham several years before I actually left. My wife was a 6th-generation Mormon, descendent of a polygamist family. When I finally broke down and told her I wanted to leave the LDS church, she confessed that she had wanted to leave for years. “Why didn’t you tell me?” I asked. “I was afraid you’d leave me” was the reply. “Why didn’t you say anything?” she asked me. My reply? “I was afraid you’d leave me.”

We talk about it all the time. She says “how come you talk to Catholics all the time? Are you being mean?” Of course I deny it. Though sometimes I get carried away

Then she says “Do you want to be Catholic again? Because if you want to, it’s up to you, I’ll still love you, but I am never going to change!”

Of course I don’t want to!

Couples need to communicate about that stuff.

 

[RebeccaJ]

We talk about it all the time. She says “how come you talk to Catholics all the time? Are you being mean?” Of course I deny it. Though sometimes I get carried away

Then she says “Do you want to be Catholic again? Because if you want to, it’s up to you, I’ll still love you, but I am never going to change!”

Of course I don’t want to!

Couples need to communicate about that stuff.

Something we agree on!

In my case, my husband and I were atheists. When I told him I needed to “find God”, he literally broke down like I had never seen before. His fear, that religion would come between us. We decided, together, that it never would.

It hasn’t been all roses and song birds, but I would say that it has in fact made our marriage stronger. I think it is because we communicate better, and more often.

 

[mfbukowski]

But I was convinced at the time. If a testimony is supposed to grow (which I agree that it should) then why do the missionaries ask you if you will get baptized at the conclusion of the second discussion?
What about 18, now going on 19 years of faithful service trying to get that answer again? I actually believe that it was David O McKay that said if you don’t have a testimony fake it until you get one. Not only did I believe, I wanted to believe. I didn’t constantly try to receive another answer until after things started to not add up. And what about the temple where we are supposed to get answers? Nothing there either.

Well something similar is in Alma 32 - you don’t need to go to McKay. I am sure he did not exactly say “fake it”

The missionaries don’t want to waste time. They are looking for those who WOULD be baptized IF they had an experience which told them it was true. And if you disagree that that is the question, who would agree to join a religion after an hour or two of hearing about it? It is expressed as a hypothetical – If you knew the church was true, would you be baptized?

If you answer yes, they go on, no and you get dropped. Argue or ask questions, somewhere in between.

I will not say that the temple is easy, but when you look at how everything relates together with a spiritual eye you see patterns of how this gesture relates to that one. And they both have the same meaning. So if this means that, then what does THIS mean? So if it really meant THAT, then over here we’d do – HEY THAT’S WHAT WE DO OVER THERE! so This really does mean That!

And you have to read. The book of Abraham which everyone criticizes-- is full of clues to the endowment, some very much right out in the open. “This means that”. And then the cycle above starts – ok we know that this means that, and then we build on it to this-

Anyone who says that they are not related is just not getting it.

It’s like a spiritual jigsaw puzzle with the pieces scrambled. Ever read the bible code, where if you take different lines of the bible and line up the words in a certain line length, different things are spelled out? Kinda like that but different. It takes spiritual eyes and study and willingness. If you go there and take it at face value and doze through half of it, forget it. And if you were to do that in your head, you would have to memorize the whole bible first, letter by letter.

You nearly have to have it memorized before you can start putting it together, because you have to see all the pieces of the puzzle at once. Just like a jigsaw puzzle if you memorized the pieces and then put the picture together in your mind. Because gestures go with the text. If you are not seeing both simultaneously, you will never get it. The only way that is possible is by being there a zillion times first. You could read it a zillion times and never get it, because you would not be seeing it at the same time.

It all has to be “present to your mind” at the same time for it to fall together.

Remember that “magic eye” fad a few years ago, where you stare at a page of graphic jibberish, slide it in and out, and pretty soon it becomes a 3-d picture? If you looked at it one line at a time, the whole picture would never “jell”.

To say the least, it is an extremely effective technique at discouraging those who have a casual interest. It only starts falling together after about 20 or 30 years of study, because it takes that long to get it all memorized, and “present to the mind” so that the words go with the pictures.

But to get that far, you have to have a growing testimony and motivation. But once it does, there can be no doubt that Joseph was a prophet. Rationally no doubt whatsoever. Who could put that together ? No one but God. But you have to get there. Who in their right mind would take someone else’s word for it? You have to know for yourself to follow the path long enough to see the answer. — there’s another analogy. Those bumperstickers that look like nothing until you see the words “Jesus is the answer” - have you seen those?

Mormonism is not for everyone!

But think of all you learned about teaching and service, and how to train youth. I bet you would admit that your life is richer just from a secular point of view. So it was not a waste I hope.

 

[mfbukowski]

Something we agree on!

In my case, my husband and I were atheists. When I told him I needed to “find God”, he literally broke down like I had never seen before. His fear, that religion would come between us. We decided, together, that it never would.

It hasn’t been all roses and song birds, but I would say that it has in fact made our marriage stronger. I think it is because we communicate better, and more often.

It can be scary stuff

 

[C2M2C]

Well something similar is in Alma 32 - you don’t need to go to McKay. I am sure he did not exactly say “fake it”
I actually disagree with the your statement that it is presented as a hypothetical- I see it more as a “hook 'em and cook 'em fast then move on to the next”. My brother-in-law went to Brazil who has one of the fastest rates of growth among the church (as far as baptisms are concerened) where they “dunk 'em” as fast as they’ll get in the font. They get people to commit after the second discussion all of the time. What you don’t see in the faith promoting versions however is that their retention rate is pretty dismal. But I digress.

When I prayed like I was asked to it didn’t take long to get the answer that the missionaries told me I would get.

And you have to read. The book of Abraham which everyone criticizes-- is full of clues to the endowment, some very much right out in the open. “This means that”. And then the cycle above starts – ok we know that this means that, and then we build on it to this-

You would have to believe that reformed egyptian is real, JS didn’t fabricate the BoM, etc, etc in order to believe that the temple is for real. If you don’t then you won’t

Mormonism is not for everyone!

I think that GBH & TSM would disagree

But think of all you learned about teaching and service, and how to train youth. I bet you would admit that your life is richer just from a secular point of view. So it was not a waste I hope.

Not at all. I enjoyed my church service (most of the time) but that isn’t the be all end all for me.

[/QUOTE]

 

[why_me]

A far superior being isn’t GOD, that’s what the big deal is. That isn’t enough. A Being who is different from us by nature in essential ways-- immutable, absolutely infinite-- that is God.

Think of this way. Suppose we’re both trying to describe someone we know. I say woman you say man. I say 65, you say 15. At what point would you agree that we are talking about 2 different people altogether?

You say that there was a time in which God was not God, I say he was always God. You say that God operates by the laws of the cosmos I say that God created the laws of the cosmos. You say God was once like us,a mortal on an earth, who progressed to become God like we can, I say that God is an independent being and we are dependent beings…

We’re talking about two different beings here, that is what the problem is.

Your orginal premise was that the way mormons view god would affect the way they worship him as if the catholic conception of god was better. I said that mormons worship god every day and thank him through prayer. For mormons, god is a very personal god because he was once man. He is very tangible and real. And as such, when a mormon prays their prayers can be very personable. I don’t see the mormon way as harmful at all. I see it as being very respectful as to who god is: god and a heavenly father.

It matters very little to me just how mormons and catholics view god. In both faiths, god is respected and worshipped. And that is the point. No sense making a problem where no problem exists.

 

[nebula]

Your orginal premise was that the way mormons view god would affect the way they worship him as if the catholic conception of god was better. I said that mormons worship god every day and thank him through prayer. For mormons, god is a very personal god because he was once man. He is very tangible and real. And as such, when a mormon prays their prayers can be very personable. I don’t see the mormon way as harmful at all. I see it as being very respectful as to who god is: god and a heavenly father.

It matters very little to me just how mormons and catholics view god. In both faiths, god is respected and worshipped. And that is the point. No sense making a problem where no problem exists.

why me,

The way God is worshipped visibly is only one part of the equation. The fact that you don’t see a problem with believing that God was once a man and became a God later is very telling, and deeply disturbing.

 

[ronald_g_w]

2C

Firstly thank you,

If I may ask another question. If you were to sit quietly closing your eyes and think about the Savior pasing the bread and wine, would you see him doing it the Catholic way or LDS or another ?

I would like to say one must never let go of any spiritual experiences as I place these above any secular learning BUT I can only imagine that if they are far and few between it cannot be easy and I believe this is why we are told not to judge. I am sorry that I cannot relate to your experience in the church as I have been blessed many / many times with confirmation and the reasurence from the Holy Ghost as to the truthfulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ as found in the LDS church, from a simple prayer next to my bed, to receiving a calling of my own or that of one of the Lords special witnesses to the temple.

mfbukowski
It’s like a spiritual jigsaw puzzle with the pieces scrambled

I have often said that it is like a jigsaw puzzle and to date there is not a piece that does not fit for me - as I have looked into other faiths and ways of thinking as well as looking into anti mormon stuff, man the amount of misquoting, I do not know if it is done deliberately or out of ignorance.

I sometimes wonder why the Lord has blessed me in this way for I listen to others like yourself who’s witness is a one time experience with some going from strenght to strength and others slowly die.

With all the info on line etc one can loose ones footing even the best of us, I believe this is one way for that sifting to take place that the Lord will have a tried and tested people to recieve him at the time of his comming which is inevitable

I cant coment on Pres Mckay comment but I do know that if you fake your love for someone with time you do come to love them, I just dont know how this would work with one’s testimony ?

My better half needs (milk from the missionaries) no the shop better run

 

[why_me]

why me,

The way God is worshipped visibly is only one part of the equation. The fact that you don’t see a problem with believing that God was once a man and became a God later is very telling, and deeply disturbing.

It is disturbing if one makes it disturbing. Again, it is how god is worshipped that matters. And the catholic and mormon way are fine in my book. In the end, when we face god, it will matter little. He will greet the devout catholics and devout mormons with a smile.

 

[why_me]

2C

Firstly thank you,

If I may ask another question. If you were to sit quietly closing your eyes and think about the Savior pasing the bread and wine, would you see him doing it the Catholic way or LDS or another ?

You should read the Diary of Saint Faustina. Her experiences were very personal. She often saw Jesus at the alter when the priest was blessing the Eucharist. It is difficult to deny what she saw and recorded in her diary.

A better question is: would the early christians hold a service the catholic way or the lds way? The early christians were basically poor. No money for colorful garments or robes as might be seen in an orthodox or catholic service. But I can see them blessing the eucharist in simple garments as they usually wore. Or I can also see them doing it the lds way: very simple and very inclusive with the people all participating in one way or the other as the lds do.

But definitely, there were no fancy garments lined with gold worn. Such is my humble opinion.

 

[majick275]

You should read the Diary of Saint Faustina. Her experiences were very personal. She often saw Jesus at the alter when the priest was blessing the Eucharist. It is difficult to deny what she saw and recorded in her diary.

A better question is: would the early christians hold a service the catholic way or the lds way? The early christians were basically poor. No money for colorful garments or robes as might be seen in an orthodox or catholic service. But I can see them blessing the eucharist in simple garments as they usually wore. Or I can also see them doing it the lds way: very simple and very inclusive with the people all participating in one way or the other as the lds do.

But definitely, there were no fancy garments lined with gold worn. Such is my humble opinion.

this is completely inaccurate. LDS sacrament meetings NEVER have all the people partcipating in the blessing of the eucharist. in fact there ISN’T a eucharist in an LDS service because they don’t believe in that. they have a “symbolic remembrance” at best. Catholic masses don’t have the people in gold robes. most people come as they are. the priests wear robes. very few wear actual gold. LDS services mandate certain clothes. so what is it that you are trying to say? the vestments that catholic priests wear today are based on those of the early christians. they may have been poor but they managed to provide for the presbyters. you can tell that from the new testament.

we can see for ourselves from available documents that early christians held services much like the catholic and orthodox liturgies of today. that’s how we got those liturgies. LDS services on the other hand are a mixture of 19th century american protestantism, sidney rigdon’s ideas on how a church should be run and a few minor modifications over the years from SLC.

 

[nebula]

It is disturbing if one makes it disturbing. Again, it is how god is worshipped that matters. And the catholic and mormon way are fine in my book. In the end, when we face god, it will matter little. He will greet the devout catholics and devout mormons with a smile.

If it only matters ‘how God is worshipped’ then God wouldn’t have his prophets spill so much ink on what his nature is like. You’re only giving us your personal opinion because this topic makes you uncomfortable. If you care about somebody, in this case God, you’ll care about learning and understanding all you can about him. Your indifference to the matter is a part of your ‘worship’.

 

[nebula]

If it only matters ‘how God is worshipped’ then God wouldn’t have his prophets spill so much ink on what his nature is like. You’re only giving us your personal opinion because this topic makes you uncomfortable. If you care about somebody, in this case God, you’ll care about learning and understanding all you can about him. Your indifference to the matter is a part of your ‘worship’.

Furthermore I don’t know why you are avoiding the argument here. YOu aren’t talking to the same God as monotheists talk to. It’s as different as worshipping Kali is to worship GOD, and yet you want everyone to forget all about that, hold hands and sing together, even though your church claims taht all other churches on the face of the planet are lousy apostates and don’t get it. Don’t you think that’s a little two faced?

 

[PaulDupre]

I think that whyme does not realize that priests purchase their own vestments out of their own meager salaries. I know of none who can afford to buy gold-trimmed vestments. Occasionally a priest will receive a set of vestments as a gift from friends or family, but that is the exception rather than the rule, and most priests come from families of modest means.

You’d think that someone who hangs out with Catholic clergy and religious all the time would know that.