Mormons: When did the Great Apostasy occur?

[tortdog]

Tortdog read Chapter 1:27 Now if God told them to be furtile and multiply would he tell them to do something they did not know how to do? Come on here buddy lets use some common sense here for a second.

But hey gotta go, got a Dr app. I will probally check back in tommorow. God bless, nice talking to you.

God told us to be perfect. Do you know how to do that?

The fact that God gives a command does not mean that God has given the knowledge to execute teh command. If you want to show me a scripture in which God lays out that he gives no commandment without first instructing the person on how to obey it, please let me know.

 

[tortdog]

But Adam and Eve did not have to sin, the chose to sin. We all paid that price. Read it it tellls you they ruined it for all of us. But God also go it back for us.

I think you do greatly err.

 

[Nicea325]

I think you do greatly err.

So Adam and Eve were forced to sin? Are you stating it was not their choice?

 

[SteveVH]

huh Are you saying that they think that God wanted them to sin? Holy Smokes:blush:

No, I am saying just the opposite. I am saying that they specifically disobeyed God’s command not to eat of the Tree. In the last paragraph I was simply stating what I believe to be the Mormon position, that being that Adam and Eve really did nothing wrong, they were just seeking knowledge. You need to re-read my post. Sorry if I was unclear. You’re a little to quick to laugh.

 

[tortdog]

So Adam and Eve were forced to sin? Are you stating it was not their choice?

I do not see how a person without knowledge can sin. I believe that knowledge of good and evil is a predicate to sin.

 

[SteveVH]

The LDS view mostly comes from modern-day revelataion. It is available online as the Pearl of Great Price, but I’m not going to get into that. I’m trying to discuss solely from the Bible as we both agree that is the word of God - scripture. But even then, I think that LDS people look to the modern revelation on Adam and Eve and makes some assumptions on what it means, when it may not be so clear.

I cannot tell from the Bible whether Adam and Eve had honorable intentions. I could read it was good and bad. One, it was bad because God clearly prohibited eating the fruit. But it could be good as Eve was seeking to be like God, like her Father. How is that anything BUT good?

In the end, we needed Adam and Eve to fall or we would not exist (probably), correct? IF that is true (IF), then we need to thank Adam and Eve for the decision. But if there was a better way, in which Adam and Eve would have obeyed God and not taken of the fruit but later gained knowledge of good and evil, and allowing for us to be born, then they screwed up.

God did give us a rational mind for a reason. As I said, I have had this discussion more than a few times with Mormon posters. You seem to be consistant with their view that Eve was simply seeking knowledge and that God desired that we have this knowledge. What is never answered is why did God forbid them to eat of the Tree, if, at the same time, He desired them to have the knowledge that could only come from eating of the Tree?

As for your statement that “In the end, we needed Adam and Eve to fall or we would not exist (probably), correct?” I am truly baffled. How in the world do you come to that conclusion. Are you saying that God wanted Adam and Eve to disobey Him? Do you not believe that God would have blessed them and rewarded them, and their posterity, for remaining faithful and trusting in Him? This seems more than a little bizarre. It seems as if you believe that God wanted them to disobey Him and had no other plan in mind should they remain faithful.

Why would we cease to exist if Adam and Eve remained faithful?

 

[Nicea325]

I do not see how a person without knowledge can sin. I believe that knowledge of good and evil is a predicate to sin.

Knowledge of what? The fallen angels were highly intelligent,so who forced them to sin? Are you suggesting God did not give us free-will?

 

[Nicea325]

God did give us a rational mind for a reason. As I said, I have had this discussion more than a few times with Mormon posters. You seem to be consistant with their view that Eve was simply seeking knowledge and that God desired that we have this knowledge. What is never answered is why did God forbid them to eat of the Tree, if, at the same time, He desired them to have the knowledge that could only come from eating of the Tree?

As for your statement that “In the end, we needed Adam and Eve to fall or we would not exist (probably), correct?” I am truly baffled. How in the world do you come to that conclusion. Are you saying that God wanted Adam and Eve to disobey Him? Do you not believe that God would have blessed them and rewarded them, and their posterity, for remaining faithful and trusting in Him? This seems more than a little bizarre. It seems as if you believe that God wanted them to disobey Him and had no other plan in mind should they remain faithful.

Why would we cease to exist if Adam and Eve remained faithful?

LDS theology is a bit off in La-La Land for me.

 

[tortdog]

Knowledge of what? The fallen angels were highly intelligent,so who forced them to sin? Are you suggesting God did not give us free-will?

No. I am not commenting on free will. I am saying that I believe knowledge of good and evil is a predicate to sin. If Eve did not have knowledge of good and evil before partaking of the fruit of the tree giving knowledge of good and evil, how would she be able to sin before partaking of the fruit?

Or maybe you disagree with me, and believe that one can sin without having knowledge of good and evil. Is that the issue?

 

[ParkerD]

Parker here is another thing that bothers me. Your first sentence. Now you said you do not believe that your Church is the only Church that has the fullness of the truth.

Hi, again, Rinnie,

So I hope I have clarified for you that I was not meaning what you assumed I meant, and that the word “authorized” was different than the use of the words “true Christian.”

Now how can you belong to a Church that you do not feel is the Pilar of all Truth.

Jesus Christ is the Pillar of all Truth, the Rock of Truth and the Rock of revelation, and the Holy Ghost is the Testator of all truth. A church is a congregation of believers, who hopefully follow those opportunities to gain all truth through those divine Sources.

Your statement about the church you belong to is not taken from anything that Jesus said, but I realize that is something you have been taught and faithfully believe. I guess I can’t help you there.

As far as “sacraments”, the LDS church has more of those (covenants) than your particular religious heritage, and those covenants can all be found right in the Bible, and are eternal and are authorized through the authority (the keys) that Christ gave to Peter and the other apostles. So, I think we both believe we have “sacraments” that are found in the Bible and are necessary for exaltation and progress.

Again, wishing you peace.

 

[SteveVH]

I do not see how a person without knowledge can sin. I believe that knowledge of good and evil is a predicate to sin.

You would be correct in that one cannot sin unless they freely choose to sin. Adam and Eve freely chose to sin or God would not have removed them from the garden into a life of toil and suffering and ultimate death. That would be quite the punishment for someone innocent. It doesn’t at all make sense. Listen to what happened to them and then try to fathom that this would happen for something no more than a natural desire to gain knowledge so that they could be like their Father:

***“To the woman he said, 'I will greately increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to your children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.”’

To Adam he said, 'Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat of it’, cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life. It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat of the plants of the field. By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return." *** (Gen 3:16-19)

They obviously had done something very wrong and knew it was wrong when they did it or it would not have been wrong. Would a just God do this to one who was innocent, who had no idea they were sinning?

You assume that Adam and Eve were without knowledge. What do you think “Do not eat of the Tree in the middle of the garden” meant to them? Do you think they may have grasped that to do so would be violating God’s direct command to them and that to do so would be wrong? If they could not grasp that then God’s command would have made no more sense than giving a book to a blind person.

Adam and Eve were not created incomplete, less than whole. It is only sin that makes us less than whole. They were made in the image and likeness of God, the perfect humans, without the stain or blemish of sin. They had knowledge; the knowledge of good, and they knew the difference between good and evil without experiencing it or they would not have been punished. The most they could gain from eating of the tree was the knowledge of evil.

 

[SteveVH]

What translation of the Bible are you using that says God gave Adam and Eve everything that they needed, let alone the knowledge to procreate?

" God blessed them and said to them, ‘Be fruitful and increase in number, fill the earth and sudue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground.’" (Gen 1:28)

Sounds to me like He pretty much gave them everything they needed, including the gift of procreation. And He gave these gifts to them before the fall, not after.

 

[rinnie]

No, I am saying just the opposite. I am saying that they specifically disobeyed God’s command not to eat of the Tree. In the last paragraph I was simply stating what I believe to be the Mormon position, that being that Adam and Eve really did nothing wrong, they were just seeking knowledge. You need to re-read my post. Sorry if I was unclear. You’re a little to quick to laugh.

Hi Steve, I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I understand that you do not agree with this, but I did get a chuckle that they believe that God gave them a command and then wanted them to do this opposite.

I do understand what you are saying it just still makes me laugh a little:blush: It is just how they would come to such a unbelievable conclusion. I mean if they are right and God WANTED them to do this he would not have punished them. See what I am saying?

God would never punish any of us for a sin that we did not realize we committed. In the bible Adam and Eve were quite clear on what God told them. It isn’t like he didn’t warn them. He even told them what the conquences would be. Sorry again for getting a chuckle out of it, but you know how some thing stirke you funny at the moment.

But again its not at you, I appreciate you sharing the belief with me. Its just such a stretch to believe that is a teaching is all.

 

[rinnie]

Hi, Rinnie,

I hope you are having a terrific day. I think you misunderstood my comment. (That happens).
My use of the word “authorized” was deliberate. I don’t view the word “real” as synonymous with “authorized”, since a person can be a “real Christian” in that they believe in Christ, love Him and adore Him and accept His atoning sacrifice as very real and personal for them, and belong to any of a number of “churches”.

I’ll explain more tonight, but I wanted you to not have such a basic misunderstanding of what I had written that you responded to. (Thanks, by the way, for responding.)

A wish of peace to you and your family.

Okay Parker I understand now what you are saying. And yes we do have completely different views on authority. BUt Yes I agree with you completely they a Real Christian can believe in Christ even though they do not have the same belief in what his word exactly means.

To put it short and sweet I believe that your belief and the way your live your life Parker can be just as strong as mine even though we both have different believes in his word.

I also believe that even though I may have the fullness in the truth in the CC as I believe I do, and even though I do not believe you have the fullness of the truth in your Church you could be even a better Christian and live your faith that is given to you even better then I.

Hope you understand what I am saying and take no offense to it. But knowing the kind of Person you have showed yourself to be Parker and our relationship I am sure you know what I am saying. We have been friends a pretty long time now

That is what I love about you Parker, You never take anything I say to heart if you think its disrespectful because you always give me the benefit of doubt. Park you understand what I am saying usually!! Does that scare you

 

[rinnie]

Tortdog Lets go back to where you said I am speculating on Adam and Eve not repenting.

No I am not doing that. Let me show you. Lets start with repenting. What is repenting. Is repenting not admitting your sin and being sorry for it, and not taking responsibility for it.

If that is not what you feel it is, then yes we cannot agree. But if you do then we got a shot. Here it is.

Okay God said DO NOT eat from the tree. We agree on that I hope. Now the devil said do it. Right there Eve had a choice to make to disobey God or obey him and say no I was told not to.

Now lets start with the devil he is skilled in telling half-truth to fool you. Now this is something that alot of protestants do not understand. There are 2 kinds of death, one of the body, one of the soul. This is where the CC has the teaching of moral death. That is death of the soul. Death of the soul is sin. Now did Eve die? Yes she did, she sinned that is death of the soul. By that sin she became separated from God. Do you see what I am saying. I do not know if it is a teaching of your Church, but lets move on.

Now did the devil lie to her, did she die? See what I am saying? He is the master if deceit. He does it to us all the time. He always works on half truth and makes it look good to us bad enough to turn against God to get it.

Look at our life today. If you want to sin do you not find a way in your mind to justify that sin. Now that justification does not come from God it comes from the devil. He does everything he can to make you sin. Now what happens when the devil gets you to sin and turn you away from God, Simple he leaves you, laughs at you and moves on. The devil loves to see you destroy yourself. Simply because there is NO better way in the world to hurt God then to see you hurt yourself. Where do you think the thoughts to sin comes from. The devil knows when you are at your lowest and he moves in to tempt you because he finds something that you think would somehow benefit yourself.

Now think about this. When you sin are you not saying that God didn’t give you everything you need, or you do not need God? Now be right back and will explain how the bible shows they did not repent.

 

[rinnie]

Cont…

Okay now what did Adam and Eve do when the sinned they went a hid. Now do you not agree God KNEW why they were hiding he is God he knows everything.

But being the wonderful merciful God he is, he gave them another chance to come clean. BUt in stead they hide. What does a Child do when they know they did wrong and are in trouble. Do they not hide from their Parents? Why? Simple they know they are in trouble.

Now Eve blames the devil, she said the serpent tricked me. Now if what you are saying is true we can say that to God even today. Does the devil not continue to trick people.

God back to what Eve said to the devil. She was quite clear on even the tree she could not eat from. It is ONLY about the fruit of the Tree in the MIDDLE of the garden that GOD SAID YOU SHALL NOT EAT OR EVEN TOUCH IT, LEST YOU DIE. So that proves shes understood quite clear what God said. SHe had quite enough knowledge to know right from wrong.

So back to Eve she blamed the devil So to say that its the devils fault means she had no free will. Or to say that when we are tricked into something we do not have free will to fall for it or not. See what I am saying. She was quite clear what God said.

Now instead of saying I was wrong and I disobeyed you Lord and I am sorry she said I was tricked. That is not saying I wrong.

Now Adam. First he blamed Eve. Then when that woudn’t fly with God he said the women YOU gave to be with me, she gave me so I ate. SO instead of saying we knew not to but we did not obey you Lord Adam blamed God himself.

There you go. When you have unrepented sin you separate yourself from God.

See Adam failed us. He sinned and because of that sin we all have the stain of sin on us.

Now God curses the serpent and promises to send ONE who will conquer the serpent. Now go back to this time of the year actually. God does work in mysterious ways does he not?

This is very close to the time Jesus was approached by the devil, the devil knows that if he does not stop Jesus from dying on that cross for our sin, he has no hold on us.

1 cor 15:21-22 45
Phil 2:8
Romans 5:19-20

God promises the New Adam who because he became obedient unto death, even on a cross makes amends super abundantly for the disobedience of Adam.

That is why People do not understand Jesus had to die. To pay for the sin that was committed by Adam. Adam lost us eternal life of the soul, Christ regained it for us.

Now because of this Grace from God and the Sacraments made possible by this obedience death has nothing over us. Unless we choose to not repent like Adam and Eve, not admit our sin, blame others that trick us, etc.

Just like a Child if a child refuses to admit he is wrong and blames others all of his life what happens to him? They continue to sin over and over again and never get out of the state of sin. ANd what happens to you if you refuse to accept Christ and admit your sin? You cannot go to heaven.

 

[BartBurk]

When did the Great Apostasy occur? I asked my friend, but he didn’t know (didn’t expect him to. We’re both teens).

Do you want an exact date?

 

[rinnie]

Hi, again, Rinnie,

So I hope I have clarified for you that I was not meaning what you assumed I meant, and that the word “authorized” was different than the use of the words “true Christian.”

Jesus Christ is the Pillar of all Truth, the Rock of Truth and the Rock of revelation, and the Holy Ghost is the Testator of all truth. A church is a congregation of believers, who hopefully follow those opportunities to gain all truth through those divine Sources.

Your statement about the church you belong to is not taken from anything that Jesus said, but I realize that is something you have been taught and faithfully believe. I guess I can’t help you there.

As far as “sacraments”, the LDS church has more of those (covenants) than your particular religious heritage, and those covenants can all be found right in the Bible, and are eternal and are authorized through the authority (the keys) that Christ gave to Peter and the other apostles. So, I think we both believe we have “sacraments” that are found in the Bible and are necessary for exaltation and progress.

Again, wishing you peace.

Now actually Parker the Church that I described has everything that Jesus said. Let me show you.

I will be back with all 7 of them and show then to you in the bible. But gotta go to work now.

 

[rinnie]

Okay Parker I will try to finish quick. Here we go.

Baptism John 3:5
Confirmation Acts 19:5-6 and Acts 8:14-17
Eucharist. Mt 26:26-29 Jn:6:53-58
Penance Jn 20:22-23 Jas 5:16
Anointing of the Sick Jas 5:14-15 Mk. 6:13
Holy Orders 1 Tim.3
Matrimony. Gen. 1:27 Gen 2:24

That is every single sacrament that is in the CC that you said cannot be found in the bible. I found them

 

[rinnie]

Hi, again, Rinnie,

So I hope I have clarified for you that I was not meaning what you assumed I meant, and that the word “authorized” was different than the use of the words “true Christian.”

Jesus Christ is the Pillar of all Truth, the Rock of Truth and the Rock of revelation, and the Holy Ghost is the Testator of all truth. A church is a congregation of believers, who hopefully follow those opportunities to gain all truth through those divine Sources.

Your statement about the church you belong to is not taken from anything that Jesus said, but I realize that is something you have been taught and faithfully believe. I guess I can’t help you there.

As far as “sacraments”, the LDS church has more of those (covenants) than your particular religious heritage, and those covenants can all be found right in the Bible, and are eternal and are authorized through the authority (the keys) that Christ gave to Peter and the other apostles. So, I think we both believe we have “sacraments” that are found in the Bible and are necessary for exaltation and progress.

Again, wishing you peace.

Now what Covenant do you have that is found in the bible do we not have? And also where did Jesus give all of the Apostles the keys to the kingdom.

DId did he not say YOU are Peter and unto YOU I give the keys to the kingdom. Now come on Parker all of the Apostles are not named Peter do you not agree?