Mormons: When did the Great Apostasy occur?

[rinnie]

l Peter 2:8

Peter tells you plain as day they stumble by disobeying the word as is their destiny.

Peter understood this scripture quite well. as scripture states it indicates their divine election a royal Priesthood to serve and worship God in Christ thus continuing the priestly functions of his life passion and resurrection a Holy Nation reserved for God a people he claims for his own in virtue of their baptism into his death and resurrection.

THis transends all into ONE community to glorify the ONE GOD who led them from the darkness of pagansim to the light of faith in Christ.

This also tells us the opposite of what you are saying. It speaks of respect for human authority, obedience patience and endurance of hardship in domestic relations. Christian behavior of husbands and wives, mutual charity.

 

[ParkerD]

Parker also I have a question for you.

Do you believe that Christ was the true Son of God. True God and True Man. If you believe that as scripture states do you believe that by the Power of the Holy Spirit he was made Man.

IF you accept this teaching do you believe that he had the power of the Holy Spirit to forgive sin?

If you believe that Christ was indeed the Son of God do you believe as he states in Scripture that all power of heaven and earth has been given to him.

Matt 28:18 Then Jesus approached and said to them. All Power of heaven and on earth has been given to me therefore go and make disciples of all nations TEACHING them to OBSERVE ALL that I have commanded you and behold I am with YOU ALWAYS until the end of AGE.

Now if you accept that Christ is truly God and Truly Man and if you accept that he indeed had this power, how can you reject this power he gave to his Apostles.

Do you not see that he is the CORNERSTONE and is with them always until the end of age.

Then how can our Father in heaven give this power to a human and give this power to Christ on earth if Christ cannot exercise this power and pass it on.

You can’t have it both ways Parker you either reject the power of Christ or you accept it and agree that he can pass it on as he stated in this paragraph.

Hi, Rinnie,

We do agree about many things, such as that Christ is the CORNERSTONE and is truly God and Truly Man, and was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit. (Great, really special personal story–thanks!)

Christ is not only with the apostles always “until the end of the age”, but is also promising to be with each and every person who believes in Him, all during the course of their lives, just as He showed John in the vision of Revelation as stated beautifully in Revelation 3:20.

Christ forgives sins because He has the power and authority to do so, and because He suffered the atonement Himself and therefore knows He is our Advocate with the Father through His power and authority.

Christ should be the Cornerstone for each of our personal faith, testimony, and personal revelation so that we change and become more like Him through becoming more loving, more kind and gentle, more obedient to the commandments, more humble and prayerful, and through allowing that our life experience will be a challenge and we will be chastened just like the New Testament expresses in many places. That is what the apostles taught, and I certainly accept this teaching and agree with it.

I also agree that the apostles were to go into all the world and spread the glorious message of the gospel of redemption through the knowledge of the living Christ, resurrected as the personal Savior and Redeemer for each and every person who has ever lived.

We are to become disciplined disciples of the perfect Master Teacher, the Good Shepherd, who becomes involved in each of our lives personally as we allow Him to do so, and really does guide toward change and toward our becoming holy.

 

[rinnie]

Now this Parker we agree on. We are all to become disciples of Christ.

But as the bible tells us we are all different and are given Grace from God to do different things.

As a Mother I am given the Grace to raise my Children, teach them the faith more by my actions and living then preaching of the word.

As a Father my husband works, goes to Church and does his best to live his life etc with the Grace given to him.

As a Priest Father is given the Grace to forgive sins in the name of Christ, Baptise, Marry people, give the anointing of the Sick.

As the bible shows we are all not called to do the same things. God calls us all to do different things.

But we are ALL called to be disciples and spread the good news. On that I agree.

Just like I answered the call to become a Mother and wife. Just like a Priest is called to not marry, that is why he would be in the Roman Rite of the Priesthood. LIke St Paul was called to not marry. It all comes from the voice of God and who says Here I am Lord do with me as you please.

We are not all called to have children, marry, be Priests. God put us all here to do different things. But all we do should be with CHrist in mind and for the goodness of his Church. We are all called to build up his Church and oneanother. We are all called to love one another, serve oneanother. What so ever you do for the least of my brothers, that you do unto me.

 

[rinnie]

But we must also remember that the Apostels were chosen to bear witness to preach and testify to all that they had SEEN from his Anointing of the Holy Spirit at the Jordan to the empty tomb.

More then their own experiences they were INSTRUCTED in the mysteries which is GODS SAVING PLAN to know how all the prophets bear witness to him. Luke 24:27-44

NOW they could UNDERSTAND THE SCRIPTURE, could teach us what the STONE that the builders had rejected is the cornerstone.

We are the Children of Apostolic witnesses. That is why we meet the first day of each week and celebrate this great feast of the empty tomb thanks for Christ our life.

Now that we are Baptised in his death and resurrection we live the heavenly life hidden with Christ in God. We are also witnesses.

We live for that promise made to us that we someday will also eat and drink with him in his Glory.

 

[ParkerD]

But we must also remember that the Apostels were chosen to bear witness to preach and testify to all that they had SEEN from his Anointing of the Holy Spirit at the Jordan to the empty tomb.

More then their own experiences they were INSTRUCTED in the mysteries which is GODS SAVING PLAN to know how all the prophets bear witness to him. Luke 24:27-44

NOW they could UNDERSTAND THE SCRIPTURE, could teach us what the STONE that the builders had rejected is the cornerstone…We are also witnesses.

We live for that promise made to us that we someday will also eat and drink with him in his Glory.

Rinnie,

I certainly agree that we are also witnesses. I personally have such a witness, and know it to be true. It is a great thing to contemplate feasting with Him, indeed.

Thanks, Rinnie.

 

[CEM5]

Couga…

In contrast to the practice of documentation by both Jews and Christians, there is an 1800 year old gap in Mormonism.

When Mormonism arrives, there are contradictions between it and Judeo/Christianity.

Mormonism puts itself in the position to essentially condemn and invalidate Christianity.

Mormonism refuses to deal with factual history, documents, and common practices of Judaism and Christianity.

On the other hand, Mormonism then makes claims about the lost tribe of Israelites in America by referring to mound dwellings of ancient native Indian tribes that show complete detachment from any artifacts of ancient Judaism in Israel, the controversy over the practices of Joseph Smith that appear more aligned with divination and clairvoyancy–which are condemned by both Judaism and Christianity.

Mormonism gives the impression that its doctrines are constantly evolving and changing its positions. It is moving towards standardization.

Mormonism taught anti-Catholicism up to the 1990’s. Now on the Mormon TV channel, they aired a program recently with news about the building of temples around the world. The program stated that the Mormon Church in Rome would hopefully receive its share of awe for its temple as the world does for both the Roman Catholic Church and the rest of the Eternal City.

Essentially Mormonism does not recognize the continuity of faith that is based on a gathering of people with its need to record and document its belief and practices, its peoples and worship practiced by both Judaism and Catholicism.

We center on a faith given us by the Apostles. We are non-sectarian, we have no mortal and individual founder like you see in Protestant and Mormon beliefs. Our beliers are based on the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ based on His life and words and witness, in the context of salvation history.

Hi KathleenGee,

Bravo! Well stated!

 

[CEM5]

Yes, and yet Christ referenced the Father as being perfect, not himself. Christ could have said, “Be ye perfect even as I am perfect,” but he didn’t. He said be perfect as the Father. So is that saying the same thing?

If the same, then why did Paul draw a distinction:

Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also --Romans 8:17

hi tortdog,

You seem to forget one important fact: Christ IS God incarnate. As such, He has 2 natures: Human nature and Divine nature. He is the Second person of the Trinity of God. He is the Word. It is also why Jesus is called 'the Son of man" as well as “the Son of God”.

It is Christ in His human nature that He refers to God the Father. Christ came and shared our human nature in the form of Jesus. As such, as a human, he was subject to all temptations and trials and even death, that all humans are subject to. Nonetheless, being Divine as well, He was able to do miraclous things, and this is also why He said,

John 12:45 NRSA
And whoever sees me sees him who sent me.

As for being perfect as our Father is perfect:

This perfection when understood in the ancient meaning, has to do with loving others with the same love that God shows us. Being able to forgive and love others so much so that we are willing to suffer and die for our fellow human being. THAT is the perfection that is being spoken of here and what Christ means.

blessings,
CEM

 

[ParkerD]

Oh You mean the Church being the Pillar of all truth. Sorry here it is

1 Tim 3:15 But if I should be delayed, you know how to behave in the household of God, which is the CHURCH the LIVING GOD, the pillar and foundation of Truth.

That is why we say that the Church is the living God because it is led by the Holy Spirit. It continues to teach us until the end of age. If the CHurch were not the living God the scripture would not tell us so.

Rinnie or others,

Since this thread came back up to the first page and I hadn’t responded to some of the items you had so kindly given as responses, I suppose that I should respond about this particular verse in Paul’s writings.

When I see the words “living God” in that verse, followed by the words “the pillar and foundation of the truth” or “the pillar and foundation of truth”, then I think of the teachings of Christ and of Peter that Christ is the Rock just as we noted in our earlier conversation. He is the foundation of Truth, and is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

I don’t see a reason to think that Paul was changing the teaching about the foundation of truth away from the teaching that Christ is that Foundation. I think he was reinforcing it, and that the very next verse, v. 16, bears this out. The words “living God” emphasize that Christ was resurrected and is God who was manifest in the flesh.

So there is quite a different way to look at v. 15 than the way which you presented, which reinforces the teachings of Jesus and of Peter. The Lord Jesus Christ should be the foundation of our lives, our hope, our reason for changing and becoming as good a person as we can become through our repentance and His help, and should be the Rock of our salvation that we may trust Him with our full trust.

A wish of peace to you, Rinnie, as you may happen to read this, and to all readers that the peace of Jesus Christ and the knowledge that He lives may abound in your life.

 

[KathleenGee]

Thank you, CEM…

Salvation history has its documentation…so many references in the Old Testament and New Testament refer to actual cities, towns, regions, peoples, rulers, tribes, customs, mind thought.

The Roman Catholic Church documents its history, its people, and its members’ sacramental history. Our library is the greatest in the world, in consideration of all those who became new in Christ.

Christ came to fulfill the Law. Christ came to destroy sin and darkness. So where the Bible finishes in the New Testament…the next testimony of Christ among us is His Church. Therefore, the library, the works of salvation are so great because Christ is so great. There can never be enough books written about Him, as the Apostles said.

There was a program this past spring done by the History Channel that has a penchant for conspiracies…It visited the Vatican library.

The History Channel people do not understand the grave condition of the privacy of the confessional.

If people know their sins will be made public to the world, they would never go.
The world would condemn them for their sins.

When people commit serious sin and seek true forgiveness in confession, they are made new. But sin has the problem of damaging the relationships of people around them. Whole families can be labelled by the sin of one family member…for generations.

When the History channel visited those in charge of the library, it was evident from the clerics serving the library that they were simple and cheerful, not at all reflecting the projection by the oftentimes biased History Channel.

Finally, the Roman Catholic Church does not seek the awe of the world. All that was done and given to the Church was done freely in glory of Christ and His teachings given us by the servants of God.

Judaism is the foundation of Christianity, and the foundation of Roman Catholicism is Jesus Christ through His apostles.

The Catholic foundation is based on the truth that Jesus lived, died, and resurrected in atonement for sin, to break the power of sin and death, to make all things new through Him.

Mormonism’s self-deification is very dangerous and leads to false end – a mortal man ruling his own planet some day as a god.

The Eucharist has been celebrated for 2,000 years.

Seeing ‘The Passion of Christ’ again the other day…for all the suffering Jesus Christ endured for the atonement of sin, He dying eventually of a broken heart – because blood and water gushed out with the piercing of the lance —His scourging, His spiritual and mental suffering, the demonic abuse by the soldiers…

Every muscle, bone, cell of His body went through tremendous destruction. That is what Christ had to endure, but such a suffering transformed into His Eucharist.

He said He would always be with us. Jesus, after His ascension, is at the High Altar of God where He is High Priest, His Sacramental sacrifice being offered in union with the priest and us at Mass in atonement for the sins of mankind that continue every minute of the day.

To say Christ withdrew Himself at the Mormon apostasy position-- or only a handful kept the faith for 1800 years – denies Christ’s last words on the cross…‘It is finished’. There was nothing else for Him to sacrifice of Himself at death.

Christ has extended His presence into the world, and no persecution or plagues or wars can stop Him. He has come as Savior to the world, not to an elite few.

 

[KathleenGee]

Regarding the desires of the Mormon Church that it can also be a recipient some day for its forthcoming temple in Rome as does the Roman Catholic Church and the City of Rome enjoy…

It is better the Mormons keep that kind of awe for the Eternal City.

The Roman Catholic Church in Rome reflects the glory and praise given to Christ alone.
The awe of our Church should not be directed to men. We are all sinners. The awe and glory is to be reserved for Christ alone.

We thank Christ for His Word, His Sacraments, His Holy Ministers. We praise Christ Who made all things new. Catholicism expresses faith in Truth and Beauty. Christ makes the world beautiful…through the vision and sentiment of a converted clean, pure heart–be it our artisans, musicians, philosophers, saints, teachers, ecclesiastics. Again it is the work of Jesus Christ Himself through us.

People project power of men onto the Church. Clerics have no power. Buildings and churches have no power. The power present in the Catholic Church comes from Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ is the lifeblood of the Catholic Church. Our faith is centered on Jesus Christ Himself – His Word Made Flesh.

When a Catholic – be it priest, religious or lay commits a mortal sin, he or she is no longer in Christ. Serious sin removes us from the lifeblood of the Church. We must go to sacramental or to say again, we must go directly to Jesus Christ in the sacrament of penance to be healed and restored to Him and the Church.

Our life in the Church comes from Christ. Subsequently, the Eucharist is the Church, His Bride.

 

[KathleenGee]

Finally, this is directed both towards Mormons and non-believers in regards to the Catholic Church and its history.

In regards to the Mormon apostasy, quoting Deacon Owen Cummings, ‘Remember, all texts have context’.

"All texts have contexts so that to ignore to be unaware of the context is to fail to interpret adequately the text…

Or, more punchily put in an oft-quoted aphorism of the great 20th century Catholic philosopher and theologian, Jesuit Father Bernard Lonergran, ‘All ideas have dates.’

“Knowing the context of a text, knowing its date and its originating circumstances are required to grasp the intention of the text and the author.”

The world is constantly changing…we are constantly changing…even I should say, on Holy Saturday, each day we are approaching our own final end. The Church is constantly being led by the Holy Spirit into ‘a fuller understanding of Christian truth.’

"It reminds one of Blessed John Henry Newman’s words in his essay on the Development of Doctrine: “Above it may be different, but here below, on earth to live is to change and to be perfect is to have to changed often.’”

To state that the Apostasy happened after the death of the Last Apostle, with no specific dates or circumstances, but that given the Mormon church to prove their point – does not pass the Test that All Texts have a Context.

 

[ParkerD]

…
He said He would always be with us. Jesus, after His ascension, is at the High Altar of God where He is High Priest, His Sacramental sacrifice being offered in union with the priest and us at Mass in atonement for the sins of mankind that continue every minute of the day.

To say Christ withdrew Himself at the Mormon apostasy position-- or only a handful kept the faith for 1800 years – denies Christ’s last words on the cross…‘It is finished’. There was nothing else for Him to sacrifice of Himself at death.

Christ has extended His presence into the world, and no persecution or plagues or wars can stop Him. He has come as Savior to the world, not to an elite few.

Kathleen Gee,

The position of the Latter-day Saints is to testify that Jesus does indeed live today, and that He is the Savior of the world and not just the Savior of an “elite few.”

When the Savior said “It is finished”, He didn’t mean His work on the earth was finished. John’s vision as recorded in the book of Revelation showed this amply–that Christ is still doing a work on the earth, which is not “finished”. And it is indeed true that “no persecution or plagues or wars can stop Him or His work.” On the contrary, He prophesied that there would be such kinds of things going on during the end times, which we see unfold today before our eyes.

The Savior was the Savior of many, many people who had never heard of Him even when He was alive and on the earth. His atoning grace extends to all people, everywhere, and would still extend to all people whether there had been a general apostasy or not, and whether there had been a Jewish turning away from Him or not. He isn’t the One who moved or moves away, and His work extends to the ends of the earth even today, as always, since the atonement affects everyone, living and dead, bringing both physical resurrection and spiritual renewal of hope, forgiveness and peace through His atoning grace.

 

[catholic-rcia]

It is good to be with Christ in these Holy Days. Lent, Holy Thursday, just off of Good Friday, now on to the Easter Vigil tonight. I invited a fellow worker who is LDS to the Good Friday Service but he had other plans. That was ok because I am only asked to ask.

I am quite sure that while Jesus was walking to His Crucifixion many Jews and gentiles also had other plans and could not make it. The impact it must have had on them all. It is amazing how Good Friday can also bring the impact of what took place front and center to us today. It is good to ponder who is there. Is it not Jesus?

I celebrated 14 years this thing we call Easter as one of the LDS family. We had some great dinners and some really good Easter egg hunts. But it was not until I became Catholic that I found myself at my first Easter. It was nothing like I thought it would be and yet it is everything that it should be. A walk with Jesus. The high point of each year.

I hope no one misses it ever

 

[KathleenGee]

Parker,

Acknowledge your comments…I am referring to Mormon posts stating that there were true believers at the time of the Apostasy who were not in communion with Eucharistic Christianity. The vast majority of Christians worshipped the Lord called the Last Supper and as St. Paul stated, the bread and wine were not ordinary but sacred.

Also, within our faith tradition we do not know we are saints or elect until Christ opens the door for us into heaven. We can only say that we are sinners who trust in His Mercy.

 

[KathleenGee]

Catholic-RCIA…I went to several nights of memorials this past Holy Week, each time a breaking away from comforts for Our Lord.

However, watching the events live in Rome with the Holy Father, and all the different people there, one can not help but experience the eternal presence of God – for the Jews in the Old Testament and their Passover to the universal faith of many different people in this world, united in the Lord.

Happy Easter to you, to Parker, Rinnie, and all!

 

[catholic-rcia]

Thanks K… YES AND YES

I am going to be bluntly honest Parker

Once you are received into the Authentic Catholic Church and attend Mass and Confession on a regular basis, once you go through the yearly Holy Calendar on a regular basis, once you meet the Saints of the Church through Jesus you cannot escape the fact that Jesus is very much alive in His Catholic Church. In each one of us.
To make the claim otherwise is not very wise. It’s wrong to build your own faith in Jesus on the perceived fall of His first and foremost mission and then claim it as if it were your own. This is breaking the commandment” Thou shalt not bear false witness”
Can a whole Church break this command? I believe it can

 

[ParkerD]

Thanks K… YES AND YES

I am going to be bluntly honest Parker

Once you are received into the Authentic Catholic Church and attend Mass and Confession on a regular basis, once you go through the yearly Holy Calendar on a regular basis, once you meet the Saints of the Church through Jesus you cannot escape the fact that Jesus is very much alive in His Catholic Church. In each one of us.
To make the claim otherwise is not very wise. It’s wrong to build your own faith in Jesus on the perceived fall of His first and foremost mission and then claim it as if it were your own. This is breaking the commandment” Thou shalt not bear false witness”
Can a whole Church break this command? I believe it can

Catholic-RCIA,

On another thread, I had explained that there was ample reason for a general falling away to occur for the purpose that there is a greater sense of free will choice when one is not choosing their religious choice based on feeling the strong ties to tradition, and rather based on a personal relationship with the Savior that is known in one’s heart.

So the kind of remonstrance you offered is not meaningful to me, though it seems you have found inactive Latter-day Saints who found meaning from your words to them–and that’s OK, since free will choice is absolutely a fundamental quality that should be operating for a person’s religious choice.

The commandment you noted ends with the words “against thy neighbor”. That would suggest no words of gossip against anyone, as well as no telling untruths about anyone. It doesn’t really have to do with saying what God has confirmed through the Holy Ghost as a truth–rather, to go against such a confirmed truth would be to break the commandment of taking the Lord’s name in vain, because it would be to have the Lord’s name on one’s lips but yet to not be acting or speaking from the heart and soul, since the Holy Ghost communicates to the heart and soul with a knowledge of truth that is beyond a shadow of doubt and is filled with light and joy and peace.

Christ’s foremost mission, by far, as known and written so beautifully by Isaiah and as known by Christ and expressed by Him, was that He suffered the atonement and crucifixion so that we all could be receivers of both personal resurrection and merciful redemption through our individual repentance and through following Him. That foremost mission was about far more than one religion on the earth. It encompasses so much more.

A joyful Easter wish to all.

 

[catholic-rcia]

Parker
Parker, I will focus on the un truths you mention. If you tell one lie about another’s faith to one who really does not know it, it would make sense that many more will be told as well. I call this bearing false witness. The whole Mormon apostasy story is a very serious bearing of false witness especially when it is taught to the young and vulnerable. .

Satan is the father of un truths Parker…right? Because I grew up, walked into the Catholic Church all on my own to learn about its core beliefs. I was bombarded with the complete opposite of what others had told me all my life. You see as an adult I do know what a lie is compared to what truth is. Keep in mind that I am in the heart of Utah.

Let me give you one lie that really sticks in my mind right now, as it is Easter and it is front and center. Who tells the LDS right here in Northern Utah that Catholics focus more on the death of Christ than His resurrection? This for me is a recurring theme. And it is an open door when it is brought up.

I doubt they would be saying this if they spent tonight in our Church, and then tomorrow in our Church on Easter Sunday. Then the many Easter weeks ahead to follow. Maybe if they only attended Good Friday, yes that would confirm it for them that we only focus on His death, but you would have to keep them away from the next two days. From the next entire Church calendar. Seriously, this is done to your peers. To your children. They are kept away.

I have heard this many times from the hard core LDS who tour our Church. (Why do you focus so much on the crucifixion rather than His resurrection?) This is what they believe because this is what they have been told. What they have been taught. How can I express truth to them when they ask such questions? I express it with a love for them because I know who spins this kind of stuff. Precisely why I give the tours of our Church. To counter lies, in order to encounter Christ. The reality of our 2000 year old faith in Him.

Like in the Passion of Christ, the movie when Jesus was walking to His death for us. He was not looking at those mocking Him, ( you focus on the death! You worship Mary, you worship Saints! You baptize infants? Your priests don’t marry? What are these nuns? One God in being, three in one …rubish! Etc.) no His eye was on Satan who was in the background spinning this stuff. I do not hold the LDS accountable when they ask such questions because I know that they truly believe these things, that it places them, in their minds in what Kathleen mentioned as an elite type of people. They have been hand fed this stuff all of their lives without witnessing the other side.

But truth is truth and this is the Church I stand in. The truth is Catholics hold the crucifixion and the resurrection as a whole. Both stand simultaneously in our lives. Each Holy Mass contains it all, Christmas, Jesus’ teachings, His passion, death and glorious resurrection as it all is bound together in order for us to die to ourselves in order to be fed by Him, to be raised in Him.

There is a time during the tour when we speak about the readings that our read at Mass. One from the Old Testament, two from the New. Then our Priest or deacon will speak on those particular readings. Tonight we had several readings from the Bible. So why was I told as a child that Catholics do not even read the Bible? Parker it is read daily by millions of Catholics. We have the Daily Bread, the Daily Mass. Yes there was a time when the Church did not want its laity to read the Bible other than what was read by the Priest. How could this have happened? And yes there is a very reasonable answer that always makes sense. One that I was not told. I was also taught that Catholic churches once chained Bibles to the pews….sounds crazy…it did when I was a kid. So as an adult I asked and again a reasonable answer. You see there is a difference between bearing a false witness and truth be told. It’s always one sided and it’s always wrong to fair justice.

.
What I found in the LDS Church have turned out to be lies to a child about the Catholic Church. I grew up and I found real truth in the Catholic Church and I do know the difference between lies and what is true. Saying something is true is not enough for me. Living in truth goes un spoken. The truth for me is that Jesus died for His enemies. If you never see yourself as His enemy than you do not see your own sin. He asks us to love our enemies because this is how we allow Jesus to truly love us. This is how we die to ourselves, this is how we find new life.

 

[CEM5]

Parker
Parker, I will focus on the un truths you mention. If you tell one lie about another’s faith to one who really does not know it, it would make sense that many more will be told as well. I call this bearing false witness. The whole Mormon apostasy story is a very serious bearing of false witness especially when it is taught to the young and vulnerable. .

Satan is the father of un truths Parker…right? Because I grew up, walked into the Catholic Church all on my own to learn about its core beliefs. I was bombarded with the complete opposite of what others had told me all my life. You see as an adult I do know what a lie is compared to what truth is. Keep in mind that I am in the heart of Utah.

Let me give you one lie that really sticks in my mind right now, as it is Easter and it is front and center. Who tells the LDS right here in Northern Utah that Catholics focus more on the death of Christ than His resurrection? This for me is a recurring theme. And it is an open door when it is brought up.

I doubt they would be saying this if they spent tonight in our Church, and then tomorrow in our Church on Easter Sunday. Then the many Easter weeks ahead to follow. Maybe if they only attended Good Friday, yes that would confirm it for them that we only focus on His death, but you would have to keep them away from the next two days. From the next entire Church calendar. Seriously, this is done to your peers. To your children. They are kept away.

I have heard this many times from the hard core LDS who tour our Church. (Why do you focus so much on the crucifixion rather than His resurrection?) This is what they believe because this is what they have been told. What they have been taught. How can I express truth to them when they ask such questions? I express it with a love for them because I know who spins this kind of stuff. Precisely why I give the tours of our Church. To counter lies, in order to encounter Christ. The reality of our 2000 year old faith in Him.

Like in the Passion of Christ, the movie when Jesus was walking to His death for us. He was not looking at those mocking Him, ( you focus on the death! You worship Mary, you worship Saints! You baptize infants? Your priests don’t marry? What are these nuns? One God in being, three in one …rubish! Etc.) no His eye was on Satan who was in the background spinning this stuff. I do not hold the LDS accountable when they ask such questions because I know that they truly believe these things, that it places them, in their minds in what Kathleen mentioned as an elite type of people. They have been hand fed this stuff all of their lives without witnessing the other side.

There is a time during the tour when we speak about the readings that our read at Mass. One from the Old Testament, two from the New. Then our Priest or deacon will speak on those particular readings. Tonight we had several readings from the Bible. So why was I told as a child that Catholics do not even read the Bible? Parker it is read daily by millions of Catholics. We have the Daily Bread, the Daily Mass. Yes there was a time when the Church did not want its laity to read the Bible other than what was read by the Priest. How could this have happened? And yes there is a very reasonable answer that always makes sense. One that I was not told. I was also taught that Catholic churches once chained Bibles to the pews….sounds crazy…it did when I was a kid. So as an adult I asked and again a reasonable answer. You see there is a difference between bearing a false witness and truth be told. It’s always one sided and it’s always wrong to fair justice.

Hi CatholicRCIA

I love the passion you demonstrate with your heartfelt words and love of Christ and His Bride, the Church, you have come to love.

I would just like to expound on some points you brought up:

The Church never forbid Catholics from reading the Bible – She only forbid us from reading the non-Catholic Bibles when they first started being published since they were changed and some even had heretical notes in them. We were cautioned, and still are to this day, from interpreting the Bible on our own without the teachings of the Church since there are many things, as St Peter warns us, difficult to understand,

2 Peter 3:16 NRSA
speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.

The reason why, centuries and centuries ago, Bibles were chained in Churches, is because one Bible could cost as much as the value of an entire village/town, and this prevented theft of these expensive Bibles. Bibles back then were written on either parchment or vellum which consisted of the skins of hundreds of cows/sheep, and the Bible covers were adorned with precious metals and gems, as befitting to honor the Word of God. Every Church had at least one Bible and people had access to it. Unfortunately, it was only the elite who could read, and therefore, most people could not, nevertheless, they did, as you have already so succintly pointed out, get the Scriptures read aloud (proclaimed!! just as Christ commanded that the word be spread ) to them, by the Priests!!

Blessings and **HAPPY EASTER to all!**from CEM

 

[catholic-rcia]

Thank you and God bless you on this magnificent day. You brought me back to my own RCIA journey in answering those questions. How it began to unfold for me. You walk away thinking why was I not told these parts of the story.

When I was a teen I was camping 20 miles above Yosemite. I was with an acquaintance from high school who had the courage along with the stupidly to hitchhike there with me from Sacramento Ca…

His name was Tim Wolf. I had broken up with my girlfriend at that time as was bitter, hurt and beat up so to speak. Around the fire on that night I began to gossip to him about her, looking for some kind of bar room support. Rather than agreeing with my words he looked at me and said something to this effect

“I do not know her so please do not speak about her because as you know there is always another side to a story. What do you know about her that is good?”

Needless to say you do not forget an encounter like that even after many decades have passed. These are the types of happenings in ones life that can pull a lot of weight, the weight of a cross. On that night I was struck down, so it became then more about getting back up. Like a small death along with resurrection. Getiting back up, being changed.

To make a long story short that girl friend is upstairs getting ready for the Easter Sunday Mass. She is my wife of 30 years. Now I have to go get to others up and do the same.

Happy Easter

In Christ Jesus
Rich
www.utahmission.com