Stephen168
New member
The Eucharist is the best example of that. As people turn their back on the Catholic Church they turn their back on Christ in the Eucharist; starting with the protestant revolt.
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SteveVH
Guest
Your statement assumes that Adam and Eve’s disobedience was really just based upon a healthy desire for knowledge, knowledge that could not have been acquired any other way. I would disagree with your statement that the desire isn’t sinful. It is exactly the desire that is sinful; the desire to be equal with God rather than to be faithful to God and trust in Him. It assumes that Adam and Eve were walking around in a cloud of ignorant bliss, rather than being created perfectly in God’s image and likeness. I have made this argument more than a few times (just ask Parker) and have never really understood the LDS viewpoint.
In short, Adam and Eve already knew goodness. How could they not? They walked with God in the cool of the day and wanted for nothing. The only thing they didn’t know was evil, in that they had not experienced evil. So, the only thing Adam and Eve could gain by eating of the fuit was the knowledge of evil. What did they get back for their disobedience? Suffering, weakness, toil, pain, and finally death. The serpent lied to them. They did not become “like God”. They became less like God. What they desired was not something good. They had been convinced, through the lie of the serpent, that God was holding out on them. Why could they not eat of this tree? They could eat of any of the other trees. They lost trust as doubt was placed in their hearts. They wanted to be like God, but without God. They were, in fact, already like God as they had been made in His image and likeness.
I just realized that this is getting off-topic. I’ll try to find the other thread in which this was discussed in detail as it is an extremely important subject in understanding the purpose of our salvation and the state of the human condition.
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tortdog
Guest
I don’t think it is a desire to be equal to God. That’s the LDS view of what Satan wanted. Rather, the desire was to be LIKE God, or a desire of a child to be LIKE his father. That SHOULD be our desire, I would hope.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
To be like God? Abstract, the right thinking IMHO would be to follow the words and example. Thats obtainable, but is divinity obtainable by the greatest Christian?
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tortdog
Guest
I don’t believe that God gives us commands that we cannot obey. We know that Christ commanded that we be perfect even as the Father is perfect. So, yes, I believe it is possible through the atonement of Christ to be like the Father. I believe that the Father expects it of us. We can become co-heirs with Christ of the Father.To be like God? Abstract, the right thinking IMHO would be to follow the words and example. Thats obtainable, but is divinity obtainable by the greatest Christian?
How is that possible? I have no idea, but that’s the miracle of the atonement of Jesus Christ.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Doesn’t scripture state Christ and the Father are the same? And what verse would state that the divinity of Christ can be obtained?
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SteveVH
Guest
The LDS answer seems to be all over the board. Is it your position that the apostasy occurred upon the death of the last Apostle or is that it occurred gradually making it difficult to put your finger on? I have heard both but the two positions do not seem to match up.
As to your comments above, I think the moral decline in America can be tied to the mid to late 60’s and began with the proliferation of artificial birth control. The sexual act became disassociated with procreation and people became objects of pleasure with no consequences to their behavior. Freedom became misunderstood as the right to do anything one wanted to do. That, IMO, was the beginning of the downfall.
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tortdog
Guest
Yes, and yet Christ referenced the Father as being perfect, not himself. Christ could have said, “Be ye perfect even as I am perfect,” but he didn’t. He said be perfect as the Father. So is that saying the same thing?
If the same, then why did Paul draw a distinction:
Wouldn’t that read heirs of God (who is Christ)? Why put in “co-heirs” with Christ if it’s the same?
The scriptures lay out disinctions between the two. That is clear. What does that mean? I don’t need to debate that. But it does not address my statement that Christ commanded us to be perfelct as the Father is. So the question is whether this is REALLY a commandment or Christ was speaking via allegory or something. I think it’s a real commandment, given by Christ and expected by the Father through the atonement of Jesus Christ.
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tortdog
Guest
I do not think there is a definitive answer on the “when,” just that it happened. Based on what Christians were doing, however, and what was countenanced I would argue it was clearly in apostasy at the time Joseph Smith asked God which church he should join (1830).
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CougaNova
Guest
I’ll agree with you that by taking the fruit they distrusted God. Can you explain to me how Adam and Eve knew good from evil before taking them fruit, when
indicates that they didn’t know until they took the fruit?
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GaryTaylor
Guest
I agree Steve, I believe we need to backtrack and correct these error’s.
tortdog, how do you interpret John 14:6-11? Or even John 12:26 when we talk about Jesus Christ and knowing God and serving God?
Or even the Apostle Paul talking about a prisoner of Christ, in the sense of being a servant for God thus Jeus Christ?
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KathleenGee
Guest
Faith foundation is found in the Jewish religion, not Joseph Smith.
The ‘watershed’ of Jewish belief is found in Exodus at the Passover, and the great memorial of the Seder where up to today the Jews ‘dine’ in the Lord.
Going back to Melchizedek, bringing forth the offering of bread and wine – not Joseph as Messianic Jews look back to–this offering is a symbolism of the coming perpetual sacrifice fulfilled in Jesus Christ.
The turning point, the prophetic point of faith is found at the Last Supper where the bread and wine is transformed into the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ…not in 1800’s America…and the perpetual sacrifice of the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ is thus fulfilled.
Jesus gave the context at the Last Supper of what His words meant when He spoke to many of His followers. When He spoke of eating His flesh and blood, most of His followers left,…John 6.
Again, the perpetual sacrifice began at the beginning of the Church, the perpetual sacrifice, St. Justin the Martyr explaining the Mass as it was celebrated in Rome and its countryside, as well as the practice of worship throughout the earliest Christian church around the year 155 ad.
The perpetual sacrifice is continually being offered at the altar of God in Heaven after Christ ascension into heaven. This worship has continued in the Latin/Orthodox churches.
The great apostasy is considered by Jewish Christians of modern times as beginning with the Protestant reformation which brought about the great breakdown and fragmentation of Christianity, the breakdown of the family, divorce and adultery…
At the earliest Christian communities oaths were made to not lie or steal or commit adultery…only one spouse.
The more Americans will go back to early Church history and study the Mass and see its Biblical roots, the more they will realize that the Catholic Church is the true church.
The problem is breaking through the false image and expectation of what church by false teaching as well as nationalism and clan/blood ties that are often tied to false teachings, as well as the common, human condition of lack of forgiveness.
I pray daily for all believers in God to come to the truth so that we can fulfill the Lord’s constant prayer that we be one in Him.
The truth will set us free.
The ‘watershed’ of Jewish belief is found in Exodus at the Passover, and the great memorial of the Seder where up to today the Jews ‘dine’ in the Lord.
Going back to Melchizedek, bringing forth the offering of bread and wine – not Joseph as Messianic Jews look back to–this offering is a symbolism of the coming perpetual sacrifice fulfilled in Jesus Christ.
The turning point, the prophetic point of faith is found at the Last Supper where the bread and wine is transformed into the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ…not in 1800’s America…and the perpetual sacrifice of the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ is thus fulfilled.
Jesus gave the context at the Last Supper of what His words meant when He spoke to many of His followers. When He spoke of eating His flesh and blood, most of His followers left,…John 6.
Again, the perpetual sacrifice began at the beginning of the Church, the perpetual sacrifice, St. Justin the Martyr explaining the Mass as it was celebrated in Rome and its countryside, as well as the practice of worship throughout the earliest Christian church around the year 155 ad.
The perpetual sacrifice is continually being offered at the altar of God in Heaven after Christ ascension into heaven. This worship has continued in the Latin/Orthodox churches.
The great apostasy is considered by Jewish Christians of modern times as beginning with the Protestant reformation which brought about the great breakdown and fragmentation of Christianity, the breakdown of the family, divorce and adultery…
At the earliest Christian communities oaths were made to not lie or steal or commit adultery…only one spouse.
The more Americans will go back to early Church history and study the Mass and see its Biblical roots, the more they will realize that the Catholic Church is the true church.
The problem is breaking through the false image and expectation of what church by false teaching as well as nationalism and clan/blood ties that are often tied to false teachings, as well as the common, human condition of lack of forgiveness.
I pray daily for all believers in God to come to the truth so that we can fulfill the Lord’s constant prayer that we be one in Him.
The truth will set us free.
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tortdog
Guest
I think that Christ is saying that he is like the Father in every way, and there is nothing that the Father would do that Christ would not also do. They are one.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
I don’t know about that one my friend. “Anyone who has seen me {Christ} has seen the father”
Anyway many are posting now, so let me speak with you another day my friend. I enjoyed our brief talk.
God Bless, Gary
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tortdog
Guest
I feel likewise. It’s been a pleasure. You seem to be an excellent example of what’s good in the RC Church.Anyway many are posting now, so let me speak with you another day my friend. I enjoyed our brief talk.
God Bless, Gary
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Setfree
Guest
Nowhere does the Bible or Church history say the power and authority ever stoped.
Infact the Bible says they will be in the Church throughout ALL AGES.
I’d rather believe God.
If you check out the Church’s history, You’ll see there has always been groups of Christians healing the sick, casting out devils, Speaking in tongues and doing miracles, since the day of pentecost right up to now.
That devil told Joseph Smith a lie.
If that so-called angel was from God, he would have told Joseph to go to a Church that preached the new birth, And they will tell him what to do. And there was Church’s around that tought the truth.
An Angel has no authority to preach the gospel to anyone.
The Angel told Philip to tell the eunuch what to do in Acts 8.
An Angel told Cornelius to send for Peter, And Peter would tell him what to do. In Acts 10.
Galatians says if an angel preaches another gospel, Let him be accursed. And that angel did preach another gospel.
If Joseph knew the Bible, He would have told the devil to clear of.
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tortdog
Guest
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CougaNova
Guest
Not to go into my “majority of Biblical scholars” again, but majority of Bible scholars don’t believe the New Testament teaches that the trinity is of one substance. I don’t have a survey, but you can look in your favorite theological dictionary. The following are some examples:I don’t know about that one my friend. “Anyone who has seen me {Christ} has seen the father”
Anyway many are posting now, so let me speak with you another day my friend. I enjoyed our brief talk.
God Bless, Gary
(Kittel, Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, 3.108-9)
(Karl Barth, Church Dogmatics, I.1.437, our emphasis)
books.google.com/books?id=0srYAAAAMAAJ&q=new+testament+theology+donald+guthrie+trinitarianism&dq=new+testament+theology+donald+guthrie+trinitarianism&hl=en&ei=GACaTbLHH4zrgQegs7jDCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CDoQ6AEwAQ
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SteveVH
Guest
I agree that is what Satan wanted. Are you saying, then, that Adam and Eve did not fall for the lie; that their intentions were honorable? If they were, then why did God punish them? We give our children commands in order to protect them from harm, not to prevent them from attaining what we hope they will attain. God specifically forbid them to eat of the Tree. Why?
I have never understood the LDS insistance that Adam and Eve really did nothing wrong. They were just seeking the knowledge that God wanted them to have.
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tortdog
Guest
The LDS view mostly comes from modern-day revelataion. It is available online as the Pearl of Great Price, but I’m not going to get into that. I’m trying to discuss solely from the Bible as we both agree that is the word of God - scripture. But even then, I think that LDS people look to the modern revelation on Adam and Eve and makes some assumptions on what it means, when it may not be so clear.
I cannot tell from the Bible whether Adam and Eve had honorable intentions. I could read it was good and bad. One, it was bad because God clearly prohibited eating the fruit. But it could be good as Eve was seeking to be like God, like her Father. How is that anything BUT good?
In the end, we needed Adam and Eve to fall or we would not exist (probably), correct? IF that is true (IF), then we need to thank Adam and Eve for the decision. But if there was a better way, in which Adam and Eve would have obeyed God and not taken of the fruit but later gained knowledge of good and evil, and allowing for us to be born, then they screwed up.
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