Mormons: When did the Great Apostasy occur?

[rinnie]

I agree that is what Satan wanted. Are you saying, then, that Adam and Eve did not fall for the lie; that their intentions were honorable? If they were, then why did God punish them? We give our children commands in order to protect them from harm, not to prevent them from attaining what we hope they will attain. God specifically forbid them to eat of the Tree. Why?

I have never understood the LDS insistance that Adam and Eve really did nothing wrong. They were just seeking the knowledge that God wanted them to have.

huh Are you saying that they think that God wanted them to sin? Holy Smokes:blush:

 

[rinnie]

The LDS view mostly comes from modern-day revelataion. It is available online as the Pearl of Great Price, but I’m not going to get into that. I’m trying to discuss solely from the Bible as we both agree that is the word of God - scripture. But even then, I think that LDS people look to the modern revelation on Adam and Eve and makes some assumptions on what it means, when it may not be so clear.

I cannot tell from the Bible whether Adam and Eve had honorable intentions. I could read it was good and bad. One, it was bad because God clearly prohibited eating the fruit. But it could be good as Eve was seeking to be like God, like her Father. How is that anything BUT good?

In the end, we needed Adam and Eve to fall or we would not exist (probably), correct? IF that is true (IF), then we need to thank Adam and Eve for the decision. But if there was a better way, in which Adam and Eve would have obeyed God and not taken of the fruit but later gained knowledge of good and evil, and allowing for us to be born, then they screwed up.

Because the devil said that to eat that fruit would not make them like God it would make them equal to God. And if Eve ate the fruit as you said because wanted to be like God why did she lie to God.

She said the devil made her do it.
Sorry its not funny but it does make me laugh. Buy anyway she said the devil tricked her. Now is she wanted to be good like God would she not have said that.

Another thing how could disobeying the word of God EVER be good. Where do your guys get this stuff

And NO we did not need Adam and Eve to exist. We need GOD to exist.

 

[rinnie]

Not to go into my “majority of Biblical scholars” again, but majority of Bible scholars don’t believe the New Testament teaches that the trinity is of one substance. I don’t have a survey, but you can look in your favorite theological dictionary. The following are some examples:

(Kittel, Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, 3.108-9)

(Karl Barth, Church Dogmatics, I.1.437, our emphasis)

books.google.com/books?id=0srYAAAAMAAJ&q=new+testament+theology+donald+guthrie+trinitarianism&dq=new+testament+theology+donald+guthrie+trinitarianism&hl=en&ei=GACaTbLHH4zrgQegs7jDCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CDoQ6AEwAQ

No offense but the Bible lacks alot of things. That is why we have the Church. The bible is not the Pilar of all truth and all truth is not contained in the bible.

Not that we do not agree with the bible, I mean it came from the Church they composed it but there is much that is not writtten. THe world could not contain all that Christ has done.

 

[tortdog]

Because the devil said that to eat that fruit would not make them like God it would make them equal to God. And if Eve ate the fruit as you said because wanted to be like God why did she lie to God.

First, wanting to be as God is not sinful. We are commanded to be like God. How can you equate as sin a desire to be like God? I’m not sure what translation you are using, but I’ve never seen one that would allow one to claim that Eve thought she would be “equal to God” by eating the fruit.

Second, why does a person lie to God after having disobeyed? Really?

She said the devil made her do it.

No. She claimed that the serpent beguiled her. She then told God that she elected to eat on her own. You are able to read into things that the scriptures to not make clear.

Another thing how could disobeying the word of God EVER be good. Where do your guys get this stuff

You are inserting words into my mouth. I don’t think “us guys” go around teaching that it’s good to disobey God. The Book of Mormon is very clear, along with the Bible, that we are to be obedient to God in all things.

And NO we did not need Adam and Eve to exist. We need GOD to exist.

How would Adam and Eve known to create man if they did not acquire further knowledge?

Assume that Adam and Eve were not trully innocent of knowledge on creating children, how would Adam and Eve have gone about creating us if they remained int he Garden of Eden living immortal lives. Why would we need Jesus Christ?

 

[zaffiroborant]

How would Adam and Eve known to create man if they did not acquire further knowledge?

Assume that Adam and Eve were not trully innocent of knowledge on creating children, how would Adam and Eve have gone about creating us if they remained int he Garden of Eden living immortal lives. Why would we need Jesus Christ?

So conceiving children is part of the knowledge of evil gained from eating the the fruit?

 

[tortdog]

So conceiving children is part of the knowledge of evil gained from eating the the fruit?

I think so. I think before the tree of knowledge that they were totally innocent in every way, like children. But even if my view on that is incorrect, had Adam and Eve not fallen, they would have lived forever, as well as their children (assuming this could have happened), and there would therefore be no need for the Christ.

 

[rinnie]

First, wanting to be as God is not sinful. We are commanded to be like God. How can you equate as sin a desire to be like God? I’m not sure what translation you are using, but I’ve never seen one that would allow one to claim that Eve thought she would be “equal to God” by eating the fruit.

Second, why does a person lie to God after having disobeyed? Really?

No. She claimed that the serpent beguiled her. She then told God that she elected to eat on her own. You are able to read into things that the scriptures to not make clear.

You are inserting words into my mouth. I don’t think “us guys” go around teaching that it’s good to disobey God. The Book of Mormon is very clear, along with the Bible, that we are to be obedient to God in all things.

How would Adam and Eve known to create man if they did not acquire further knowledge?

Assume that Adam and Eve were not trully innocent of knowledge on creating children, how would Adam and Eve have gone about creating us if they remained int he Garden of Eden living immortal lives. Why would we need Jesus Christ?

Huh? We need Jesus because he is the center of our life. It has nothing to do with having kids. Do you think that when we die and go to heaven we won’t still need Jesus? And I still do not understand this question. We know that Adam and Eve were totally innocent of sin because that is how when they ate from the tree they died. They died of inocence and sin entered into thier soul which is another name for death of the soul

I am sorry if you feel if I put words in your mouth but then you answer me How can disobeying the word of God ever be a good thing? You are who said it was.

 

[tortdog]

We need Jesus because he is the center of our life.

If Adam had not fallen, why would you need Christ?

 

[rinnie]

First, wanting to be as God is not sinful. We are commanded to be like God. How can you equate as sin a desire to be like God? I’m not sure what translation you are using, but I’ve never seen one that would allow one to claim that Eve thought she would be “equal to God” by eating the fruit.

Second, why does a person lie to God after having disobeyed? Really?

No. She claimed that the serpent beguiled her. She then told God that she elected to eat on her own. You are able to read into things that the scriptures to not make clear.

You are inserting words into my mouth. I don’t think “us guys” go around teaching that it’s good to disobey God. The Book of Mormon is very clear, along with the Bible, that we are to be obedient to God in all things.

How would Adam and Eve known to create man if they did not acquire further knowledge?

Assume that Adam and Eve were not trully innocent of knowledge on creating children, how would Adam and Eve have gone about creating us if they remained int he Garden of Eden living immortal lives. Why would we need Jesus Christ?

Also this is not true. Eve did not say she choose to eat the fruit on her own. She said the devil tricked her into doing it. If Eve would have repented and admitted her sin she would not have been thrown out of the Garden of Eden. But she refused to repent her sin and blamed in on the devil.

You have me curious on this one also. Now what would be the difference of adam and eves knowledge of sex in the garden of eden or out of it? Would that not all come from God?

Why does a person lie to God. Simple they do not want to admit their sin and be held accountable for it.

Also to be Christ like and imitate God is not the same as being a god. The devil said if she ate the fruit she would be like gods who know. There is only ONE God not gods who know. gods would be evil do you not agree? Besides God told her she would die did he not. the devil told her she would be like gods who know. She had to make the call and listen to God or the devil. She made her choice. She did not say God I am sorry I made a mistake and listened to the devil instead of You. She said she was tricked. She was not tricked God told her point blank not to do it. She chose the devil over God and sinned.

If Eve would have not chose to be like gods instead of obeying the Lord she would not have been in this mess.

 

[rinnie]

If Adam had not fallen, why would you need Christ?

What makes you seem to believe that Adam did not need Christ? THat is what I don’t understand. The Only reason Jesus HAD to die for our sin was to pay for the sin that Adam did.

BUt it would have been better if Adam and Eve would never have sinned then Christ would not have had to suffer for his sin. Then there would be no death.

God created man and women in his image and Blessed them and told them to multiply. Fill the earth and subdue it. God gave them everything.

Adam and Eve would not have anything if it were not for God. God talked to Adam everyday. The same way it will be at the end of times in heaven the way it should have been before they sinned.

 

[rinnie]

I think so. I think before the tree of knowledge that they were totally innocent in every way, like children. But even if my view on that is incorrect, had Adam and Eve not fallen, they would have lived forever, as well as their children (assuming this could have happened), and there would therefore be no need for the Christ.

God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. Three persons made up of ONE GOD. Granted God would not have had to die for our sins but we still needed him.

I do not understand this kind of thinking

 

[rinnie]

Where did Christ say that?

In the Gospel tortdog.

The Church is one because of her source. The word made flesh Jesus Christ.

The CHurch is Holy because because of her Holy Spirit that makes her Holy.

The church is Catholic because it is Universal for ALL.

The CHurch is Apostolic because it goes by the teachings of the Apostles.

 

[tortdog]

Also this is not true. Eve did not say she choose to eat the fruit on her own. She said the devil tricked her into doing it. If Eve would have repented and admitted her sin she would not have been thrown out of the Garden of Eden. But she refused to repent her sin and blamed in on the devil.

Talk about speculation. No where in scripture does it claim that Eve did not repent before being cast out. Her response merely seems to be the facts. She said, “He beguiled me” then “I did eat.” She didn’t say, “It’s not my fault.”

Now what would be the difference of adam and eves knowledge of sex in the garden of eden or out of it? Would that not all come from God?

If they were innocent before having knowledge (a pretty safe assumption) then how would they gain the knowledge to engage in sexual relations? Maybe God would have taught them. Maybe not.

The devil said if she ate the fruit she would be like gods who know. There is only ONE God not gods who know. gods would be evil do you not agree?

Sure. Gods are evil. And we should get rid of the “we” in Genesis. /sarcasm

You can’t have it both ways.

She did not say God I am sorry I made a mistake and listened to the devil instead of You. She said she was tricked. She was not tricked God told her point blank not to do it. She chose the devil over God and sinned.

Your scriptures must have a whole lot more than mine to get to those conclusions. Mine are pretty short in the discussion summary. There is no way I could make all those conclusions from what I have. How do you know that the complete discussion is recorded, as opposed to a short summary of the account? We know that certain things are said. We don’t know that everything is recorded.

Bottom llne is God gave two commandments: have kids and don’t eat the fruit. The fruit give them knowledge. Before the fruit, they did not understand things about sex (covering with the leaves only after the fruit). There’s more there than is recorded. That much is clear.

If Eve would have not chose to be like gods instead of obeying the Lord she would not have been in this mess.

And what mess is that? That she has children, and has a savior to save her? Quite a mess, I tell you. But I guess I’m not seeing it.

If they live forever and had not chosen to sin, why do they need Christ?

 

[tortdog]

What makes you seem to believe that Adam did not need Christ? THat is what I don’t understand. The Only reason Jesus HAD to die for our sin was to pay for the sin that Adam did.

I don’t see how you can make that statement and not answer your own question. Beyond the sin, how does a man who will not die need Christ to resurrect him?

God created man and women in his image and Blessed them and told them to multiply. Fill the earth and subdue it. God gave them everything.

Except knowledge.

 

[rinnie]

Hi, Rinnie,

I hope you are having a terrific day. I think you misunderstood my comment. (That happens).
My use of the word “authorized” was deliberate. I don’t view the word “real” as synonymous with “authorized”, since a person can be a “real Christian” in that they believe in Christ, love Him and adore Him and accept His atoning sacrifice as very real and personal for them, and belong to any of a number of “churches”.

I’ll explain more tonight, but I wanted you to not have such a basic misunderstanding of what I had written that you responded to. (Thanks, by the way, for responding.)

A wish of peace to you and your family.

Hi Buddy No problem. Actually I am heading out I have a late Dr App. so probally will check back with you tommorow. Always a pleasure to speak with you my friend.

 

[tortdog]

It’s hard to reply to you rinnie when you divide the responses up. I’m doing my best:

God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. Three persons made up of ONE GOD. Granted God would not have had to die for our sins but we still needed him.

I don’t get your point.

Where did Christ say that?

That’s not in scripture. That’s in the teaching of the RC Church. That’s circular. If Christ had said that the RC Church is his church, then I’d think you’d see less sects out there.

 

[rinnie]

I don’t see how you can make that statement and not answer your own question. Beyond the sin, how does a man who will not die need Christ to resurrect him?

Except knowledge.

tortdog, Please read Gen: 1:28 God blessed them. He gave them everything they needed.

And if Adam and Eve would have not sinned and disobeyed God that would not have died.

torddog do you not understand that God is the Father the son and the Holy Spiirt. Always was alway has been always will be.

Rather they sinned or not. In the bible it tells you before Abraham I AM!! Christ tells you he is, always was, and always will be. I AM.

 

[tortdog]

What translation of the Bible are you using that says God gave Adam and Eve everything that they needed, let alone the knowledge to procreate?

 

[rinnie]

It’s hard to reply to you rinnie when you divide the responses up. I’m doing my best:

God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. Three persons made up of ONE GOD. Granted God would not have had to die for our sins but we still needed him.

You did before the reformation. There was only One Church the Catholic Church. It did not happen for many many years. Until the reformation for goodness sakes.

And what I am saying is that if Adam and Eve would not have sinned there would be no death. It would be the way it was supposed to be. The way it will be. THe new heaven and new earth will end the way it began. Except this time there will be no sin. It is destroyed by Christ once and for all.

But Adam and Eve did not have to sin, the chose to sin. We all paid that price. Read it it tellls you they ruined it for all of us. But God also go it back for us.

 

[rinnie]

What translation of the Bible are you using that says God gave Adam and Eve everything that they needed, let alone the knowledge to procreate?

Tortdog read Chapter 1:27 Now if God told them to be furtile and multiply would he tell them to do something they did not know how to do? Come on here buddy lets use some common sense here for a second.

But hey gotta go, got a Dr app. I will probally check back in tommorow. God bless, nice talking to you.