Mortal sin at death

[Spirithound]

God didnt give us our sexuality & other desires to totally suppress them, to do that causes frustration…

8Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. 9But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

 

[Spirithound]

Jesus gave only ONE commandment: LOVE OTHERS AS I HAVE LOVED YOU. That about sums it up in my book.

27He answered: " ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ "

 

[Methodi]

Spirithound:
Who is containing themselves these days with almost 60% of children born out of wedlock, let alone the Priest sex scandal,& dont forget, God wills those conceptions out of wedlock. Its hard to know whats right or wrong these days as we get so many mixed messages from parish to parish, there is no continuity. I have heard it said by a priest that we are most likely to be judged by how we love & treat our neighbor than our personal sins

 

[Celebration44]

The simple answer to this question is that there is no hell. Period. One of our flaws as a church is that we pontificate, and make up things, including more rules. Simply keep in mind that God is amazing. He is more amazing and more good than we can ever be. So, if the mother of Jeffrey Dahmer can forgive him for eating people — God must be more forgiving. God allows us to learn and grow through our free will. He will always forgive us for every thing we do in that learning process. We will not be punished by God. After the death of our body, we will all re-emerge into heaven (that is where our soul was before we chose which human body to come into.) We will examine our life on earth. We will get guidance from more experienced souls, and we will use our free will to choose which “lessons” we want to “work on” in our next life. We all get better and better. Don’t fret. Keep improving.

 

[DL82]

I’m sure I’ve read in a number of places that if a Catholic dies with unconfessed mortal sin tainting his soul, he will be condemned for eternity. I’m just wondering whether that teaching is correct, as I’ve stated it.

OK, this has probably been stated already (haven’t read the whole thread) but this isn’t quite correct.

If a Catholic dies with UNREPENTED mortal sin tainting his soul, he will be condemned.

That’s a tautology, because mortal sin is a sin that separates us from God, it’s the deliberate and final turning away from God, and repentance is turning back to God and asking His forgiveness, and because hell is the eternal separation from God.

The Church recognises two kinds of contrition - imperfect contrition comes from the fear of hell alone, perfect contrition comes from the recognition of the goodness of God which has been offended by sin. Perfect contrition always forgives sins, right then, at the moment you repent, even apart from the Sacrament of Reconciliation (though perfect contrition also always acknowledges that the Church has also been offended, and therefore always includes a resolution to go to Confession as soon as possible). The Sacrament of Reconciliation can also forgive sins when someone has only imperfect contrition. This is how it was explained to me in RCIA, don’t have a CCC to hand to find the quotes on that.

The closer we live to God in this life, the more we’ll notice when we commit mortal sin, the more we’ll hate our state of separation from God, and the quicker and easier it will be to repent (not more comfortable, but easier all the same). That’s the basis of the hope of moral assurance, that we know we’re less and less likely to sin the more we grow in God’s grace.

As for someone who has imperfect contrition and dies before they can get to confession, who knows? We can only trust God’s mercy. The Church recognises baptism of desire when people die before they can get baptised when they want to be. It seems logical to assume there may be a confession of desire when someone who can’t quite get perfect contrition dies on their way to confession, but that’s just my idea, not Church doctrine.

It is still true to say that nobody goes to hell unless they choose to - that is to say, unless you have turned away from God and remained turned away, He is always ready to forgive you.

 

[Methodi]

The simple answer to this question is that there is no hell. Period. One of our flaws as a church is that we pontificate, and make up things, including more rules. Simply keep in mind that God is amazing. He is more amazing and more good than we can ever be. So, if the mother of Jeffrey Dahmer can forgive him for eating people — God must be more forgiving. God allows us to learn and grow through our free will. He will always forgive us for every thing we do in that learning process. We will not be punished by God. After the death of our body, we will all re-emerge into heaven (that is where our soul was before we chose which human body to come into.) We will examine our life on earth. We will get guidance from more experienced souls, and we will use our free will to choose which “lessons” we want to “work on” in our next life. We all get better and better. Don’t fret. Keep improving.

I think You probably have something there, a lot of people say there is no hell, hell is here on earth, & by the looks of some of the things I have seen, they may be right

 

[mattkubes]

The simple answer to this question is that there is no hell. Period. One of our flaws as a church is that we pontificate, and make up things, including more rules.

No. Wrong. The greatest trick of the devil has been convincing modern man that Hell (and even the devil himself) does not exist. This position flies in the face of 2000 years of Tradition and, although I’m not directing this at you, is intellectually arrogant.

Jesus says in Mark 9:
“And if thy eye scandalize thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee with one eye to enter into the kingdom of God than having two eyes to be cast into the hell of fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not extinguished.”

Catholic Answers has a great article called The Hell There Is!, and I strongly recommend that you read it.

 

[SteveGC]

Methodi and Celebration44,

I’m afraid to ask, but are you both really Catholic, as your profiles suggest?

If so, do you realize that your belief systems are not at all Catholic?

Lastly, do you realize this has dire implications on your salvation?

Concerned,

SteveGC

 

[Celebration44]

Regarding: (“Wrong, Wrong, Wrong …”)
I appreciate your position. It has been taught for well over 2000 years. So have a multitude of incorrect things. It would therfore be intellectually arrogant to use that as an argument. We do not teach that the Bible is infallible. It is full of things which are far from being the word of God. Look at Paul’s extreme sexism as an example of how things were said “for the times” — not for all time. The Bible is a book, with some good lessons. There were no stenographers or tape recorders at the time, and even the four gospels are not internally consistent. That is okay. The point is that we can KNOW God. We KNOW that God cannot be less loving or less forgiving than ANY human. Do you not agree? Can there be any argument with this? Therefore, hell and eternal damnation is so utterly absurd. What kind of God do you choose to belive in!!! Why do some (“intellectually arrogant?”) humans defend a book full of errors, as if it is reliable, or the “tradition” of mostly well-meaning people (as if long-ago popes were pious rather than power-hungry), when you can get clear answers directly from God, who is in you?

 

[mattkubes]

I appreciate your position. It has been taught for well over 2000 years. So have a multitude of incorrect things. It would therfore be intellectually arrogant to use that as an argument.

This presupposes that there have been doctrinal errors taught in the Church’s history, and that is wrong. So the rest of your post falls flat on its face. But for the sake of clarity, what errors were you thinking of?

We do not teach that the Bible is infallible.

Who is “we”? The Church does, and the only ones given the authority to make such a proclamation do. So, again, wrong.

The Bible is a book, with some good lessons. There were no stenographers or tape recorders at the time, and even the four gospels are not internally consistent. That is okay.

You seem to be making some very broad claims without even a shred of evidence. Where’s the internal consistency? Did millions of the greatest minds during the past 2000 years miss these inconsistencies, only to be discovered in 2009?

The point is that we can KNOW God. We KNOW that God cannot be less loving or less forgiving than ANY human. Do you not agree? Can there be any argument with this?

I do agree that God is infinitely loving and merciful, but I do not agree with your subsequent logic. You seem to forget that He is also just. He allows us to choose to live without Him and to break the laws that He has written on our hearts. I’m sorry, but simply making bold statements doesn’t make them true. Do you have any scripture passages to back you up? Any writings from the Saints? Any sort of theological foundation for what you said?

 

[Celebration44]

Steve GC,
Yes, I am Catholic, with extensive training, but I know that the Church as a whole does not know about or teach all that I described or believe. There are church leaders (a bishop in Poland) who openly teach the clear truth of reincarnation, for example. The pope has asked him to be careful … the flock is not ready yet for this. Catholic (Notre Dame trained) theologian and author, Christopher Martin Bache (Lifecycles … Reincarnation and the Web of Life), gives such a clear explanation of the FACT that reincarnation is truth. The Church will teach it someday. The Church, my opinion, has known it to be the truth for a long time.
As for your comment on my salvation … whoa. Does God want us to be judgemental? Must I be wrong, let alone damned, if I differ with some current Catholic teachings?

 

[mattkubes]

The Church will teach it someday. The Church, my opinion, has known it to be the truth for a long time.
As for your comment on my salvation … whoa. Does God want us to be judgemental? Must I be wrong, let alone damned, if I differ with some current Catholic teachings?

I’m sorry, but where do you see reincarnation mentioned anywhere in the scriptures?

The Church has taught us that some of the positions you hold are grave errors, and it would be uncharitable not to point this out to you. I’m worried by a lot of what you have written, and I want you to spend eternity with God and His Truth. There is nothing judgmental about pointing out the fact that you’ve been convinced to believe some heretical doctrines.

I’ll keep you in my prayers and will ask the Holy Spirit to lead you to the Truth. God Bless.

 

[Celebration44]

To mattkubes,
Errors: The Church teachings have “evolved” (changed) over the centuries … which is a good thing. This is “proof” that the old teachings (or the new teachings) are wrong or incomplete. Anyone knows this. Examples include which books are in the Bible (as much or more of a political exercise than a holy exercise). The Church’s teachings on Mary have fluctuated widely until modern times.
Bible infallible: No, the Catholic Church does not hold the Bible to be infallible. Look at Paul’s teachings. Women would still need to wear hats, and nuns would not be allowed to teach religion. Paul was extremely sexist — but we write it off as him simply teaching for his times, not for our times. Yes, the Church recognises that the Bible is fallible.
Internal inconsistency: all biblical scholars know of the inconsistencies between the four gospels; an easy example is the stories of the loaves and fishes (the purpose of the story is consistent, but the details show that not every word is “inspired by God”, as God does not inspire errors.) God is allowing of our free will. Men wrote the Bible, and may have felt inspired to do so, but it did not give them infallibility.
God’s justice vs. Hell: God in not unjust, as that would be a bad thing. God can only be just, if “justice” is always good. Justice is not always good. God is forgiving, which is always good. Thus there are times when God chooses to be “forgiving” over “just.” So, even if God chooses at a certain time to be just, he would never allow us to be thrown into hell. He is too too too forgiving — “perfectly forgiving” to be exact. Hell does not exist. The theological foundation for this is that God is perfect, better than we as humans can ever be, so we can KNOW there is no hell — no matter what man has written in a book. **

 

[Celebration44]

To Matt,
Regarding your 2nd post:
Reincarnation: I have read the text of passages removed from the bible in approx 300 AD at the insistence of the wife of Constantine. These show that Jesus and the apostles were aware of reincarnation.

“Grave” error: that, by definition, is a serious accusation; what have I said that is “bad” or harmful to humanity? Just because you, or the majority of Catholics don’t believe something, doesn’t by definition make that belief punishable by hell. Again, what loving, forgiving God have you lost sight of? One might deem it “bad” to go around being judgmental. But at least if I question if you have done a bad thing, I know that you mean well, and would never be condemned to hell for it.

 

[Methodi]

Methodi and Celebration44,

I’m afraid to ask, but are you both really Catholic, as your profiles suggest?

If so, do you realize that your belief systems are not at all Catholic?

Lastly, do you realize this has dire implications on your salvation?

Concerned,

SteveGC

I think my belief system is Catholic, I am catholic too. Most of the stuff I write, I heard from a Priests mouth at one time or another , things that they said over the yrs, I am not making things up. I also will not take communion in the state of mortal sin like a lot of catholics do. Far from perfect tho am I , we are all a work in progress, we are all at various stages of spitituality, we all have to make a lot of blunders before we get there.We can only go so far as the Grace of God allows, each of us is trying to work out his salvation, & one size dont fit all

 

[Celebration44]

To Methodi,
I am so sorry that a posting of mine resulted in your salvation being called into question by others (albeit along with mine).
It reminds me of when I was the only Catholic at a Presbyterian college in the “bible belt.” As I clearly defended the Catholic faith (I didn’t mention reincarnation or the non-existence of hell), and they had no logical response, they would all simply dismiss you with, “You’re goin’ to hell.”
Great answer. Just what God wants from us.

(NOT)

 

[Methodi]

To Methodi,
I am so sorry that a posting of mine resulted in your salvation being called into question by others (albeit along with mine).
It reminds me of when I was the only Catholic at a Presbyterian college in the “bible belt.” As I clearly defended the Catholic faith (I didn’t mention reincarnation or the non-existence of hell), and they had no logical response, they would all simply dismiss you with, “You’re goin’ to hell.”
Great answer. Just what God wants from us.

(NOT)

Yes I understand, thank God, If I need any advice, I wouldnt look for it here, these people have hatchets out, hope God is more merciful than that. God is going to deal with us all differently . We all come from different backgrounds, some of us have been hurt badly , we are fragile humans, & God knows that. Life is not fair & we have not all been doled out equally. To whom much is given much is expected. Ignorance is bliss, & that was told to me by a catholic priest too

 

[peary]

Do yourself a favor and re-read this scriptural passage. He said these were the greatest. He did not do away with the other 10. If you want to give facts, give them all. If you want to be guided by them, observe them all, and not be selective. Ask a priest. Are you afraid to?

John 15:12, 17.
Why do I need to ask a priest? It was stated by Father Larry Richards in one of his sermons. You can’t get more orthodox than that. By the way, you could use a little humility. Just a thought.

 

[SteveGC]

To Methodi and Celebration44 again,

I make no judgment on your salvation, rather merely point out that one who holds to beliefs that are non-Catholic has to consider that implication on their salvation. Perhaps there is no implication, but my intuition tells me that there is.

Further, no Catholic would ever imply in any way the destination of one’s own soul, much less the destiny of another’s. So my concern is not analogous to some anti-Catholic rhetoric which dismisses all of us to hell. My concern is a genuine care for the evident lack of acceptance of fundamental Church teaching.

Methodi, might I suggest you look to the Cathechism more than an individual priest, whom I suspect you misunderstood in the first place. Or atleast get a more in-depth sampling of priestly counsel, so that you might come to a better understanding of actual Church doctrine. Also, you said, ‘we can only go so far as the grace of God allows’. I hope by this you weren’t implying that the grace of God will limit your development into holiness, if it is truly what you seek. You are NOT limited in your potential as a Christian. Zero limits through the grace of God. I don’t care what your lot in life has been. You can achieve perfection (this side of heaven) if you desire and work toward it in cooperation with this grace.

Celebration44, I apologize to you for any inference you got that I was judgmental. However, I am quite taken aback by any Catholic who dismisses hell and talks of reincarnation.

God Bless

 

[Methodi]

To Methodi and Celebration44 again,

I make no judgment on your salvation, rather merely point out that one who holds to beliefs that are non-Catholic has to consider that implication on their salvation. Perhaps there is no implication, but my intuition tells me that there is.

Further, no Catholic would ever imply in any way the destination of one’s own soul, much less the destiny of another’s. So my concern is not analogous to some anti-Catholic rhetoric which dismisses all of us to hell. My concern is a genuine care for the evident lack of acceptance of fundamental Church teaching.

Methodi, might I suggest you look to the Cathechism more than an individual priest, whom I suspect you misunderstood in the first place. Or atleast get a more in-depth sampling of priestly counsel, so that you might come to a better understanding of actual Church doctrine. Also, you said, ‘we can only go so far as the grace of God allows’. I hope by this you weren’t implying that the grace of God will limit your development into holiness, if it is truly what you seek. You are NOT limited in your potential as a Christian. Zero limits through the grace of God. I don’t care what your lot in life has been. You can achieve perfection (this side of heaven) if you desire and work toward it in cooperation with this grace.

Celebration44, I apologize to you for any inference you got that I was judgmental. However, I am quite taken aback by any Catholic who dismisses hell and talks of reincarnation.

God Bless

I am an older man, after U live for so many years & see so many things namely suffering, terible suffering indeed, I find it hard to Believe that a Loving merciful God would cast some one into hell. I am a man who especially prays for all the souls who have gone before us, some of the condition in which they lived were like hell.I pray for all who have gone before us not only Catholics. The church doesnt seem to be universal in its teachings anymore, You can go from parish to parish these days To hear what u wanna hear. I Love My Church, My main prayer is for Gods Mercy on us all, maybe I am a little wet behind the ears, but God knows My Heart & Your heart & all our hearts