Mortal sin at death

[palmas85]

The simple answer to this question is that there is no hell. Period. One of our flaws as a church is that we pontificate, and make up things, including more rules. Simply keep in mind that God is amazing. He is more amazing and more good than we can ever be. So, if the mother of Jeffrey Dahmer can forgive him for eating people — God must be more forgiving. God allows us to learn and grow through our free will. He will always forgive us for every thing we do in that learning process. We will not be punished by God. After the death of our body, we will all re-emerge into heaven (that is where our soul was before we chose which human body to come into.) We will examine our life on earth. We will get guidance from more experienced souls, and we will use our free will to choose which “lessons” we want to “work on” in our next life. We all get better and better. Don’t fret. Keep improving.

It is interesting to note however that Christ himself spoke and taught extensively on the subject of Hell. I suppose you would have us believe that He was wrong in His teachings. Of course, there is always the possibility that He was right and you are wrong.

First I’ve heard of us souls sitting around in heaven deciding which body we would inhabit upon our return to earth. Sounds intriguing though. How long did it take for you to figure that one out?

 

[Celebration44]

Steve GC,
Thanks. You had a good answer in part 1. You also had a kinder tone.

Regarding being taken aback over reincarnation and the lack of hell, I was once once in your shoes in that regard. However, my response was to learn and grow, not to assume I was right (or that the church was right.) No one has posted a thoughtful response or rebuttal to what I have described. “Tradition” or “past scholars” is not a thoughtful response. God would never have created a church that required only “learned men” to explain it. It must make sense. Meaning, it must be compatible with the premise of God’s perfection and goodness. All people should be able to see it clearly. It is also strains credulity to only trust/believe in writings of people whose vested interest was to maintain their position of power and wealth. I do not mean to pass blanket judgement on church scholars, but I do mean to mention that it assisted some people to change Jesus’ teachings if it made people feel more scared/guilty ---- resulting in more money given to the VERY rich and VERY powerful church. Such is not remotely as much the case today … but we are relying upon “scholars” from the past, for whom it very much was the case. So, given that God would not create a “confusing religion”, all things should really be easily understood through his unconditional love and goodness. Hell makes no sense, and does not exist. Reincarnation make total sense, and clearly exists. To think otherwise is to call God foolish, inconsistent, unfair, less loving than humans, and less forgiving than humans. I will get great joy when the whole world realizes this, thus knowing how very loved they are. What gain is there to think that hell exists? It keeps priests in business. Jesus would be appalled. If the “business” of religion did not exist, the truth could spread quickly. Consider reading Christopher Martin Bache’s book. If you dare, it will change your mind.

 

[Celebration44]

To Plamas85,
I never implied that Jesus was wrong. Jesus was often misquoted. Remember, the gospels were written many, many years after the events, and probably by men who were not even present. They are stories told through others. The bible is of value, but quoting is should never be construed as quoting Jesus or quoting truth … it is merely quoting the bible.

As for how long did it take me to learn about reincarnation …
It took years of reading, including reading Catholic scholars who are absolutely certain of the truth of reincarnation. I have spoken with many priests who belive in it … they just aren’t supposed to talk about it. The church, in its wisdom, fears that people will decide that it is okay to “be bad” in this life, if they know they get another chance. I maintain that the church has no right to treat us as children/adled. The actual effect it has is to make you realize that we choose to be here, to “work” on getting better and better, because we will keep coming back until we do!!!

 

[Methodi]

To Plamas85,
I never implied that Jesus was wrong. Jesus was often misquoted. Remember, the gospels were written many, many years after the events, and probably by men who were not even present. They are stories told through others. The bible is of value, but quoting is should never be construed as quoting Jesus or quoting truth … it is merely quoting the bible.

As for how long did it take me to learn about reincarnation …
It took years of reading, including reading Catholic scholars who are absolutely certain of the truth of reincarnation. I have spoken with many priests who belive in it … they just aren’t supposed to talk about it. The church, in its wisdom, fears that people will decide that it is okay to “be bad” in this life, if they know they get another chance. I maintain that the church has no right to treat us as children/adled. The actual effect it has is to make you realize that we choose to be here, to “work” on getting better and better, because we will keep coming back until we do!!!

I have heard that the Catholic Church does not tell us the whole truth, I have also heard of it referred to as a business By catholics themselves

 

[coda]

Who is containing themselves these days with almost 60% of children born out of wedlock, let alone the Priest sex scandal,& dont forget, God wills those conceptions out of wedlock. Its hard to know whats right or wrong these days as we get so many mixed messages from parish to parish, there is no continuity. I have heard it said by a priest that we are most likely to be judged by how we love & treat our neighbor than our personal sins

For “continuity” check the catechism… It ALWAYS instructs us correctly and is NEVER in conflict with the scriptures…EVER.

 

[coda]

The simple answer to this question is that there is no hell. Period. One of our flaws as a church is that we pontificate, and make up things, including more rules. Simply keep in mind that God is amazing. He is more amazing and more good than we can ever be. So, if the mother of Jeffrey Dahmer can forgive him for eating people — God must be more forgiving. God allows us to learn and grow through our free will. He will always forgive us for every thing we do in that learning process. We will not be punished by God. After the death of our body, we will all re-emerge into heaven (that is where our soul was before we chose which human body to come into.) We will examine our life on earth. We will get guidance from more experienced souls, and we will use our free will to choose which “lessons” we want to “work on” in our next life. We all get better and better. Don’t fret. Keep improving.

ok boss—good luck!

 

[coda]

Steve GC,
Thanks. You had a good answer in part 1. You also had a kinder tone.

Regarding being taken aback over reincarnation and the lack of hell, I was once once in your shoes in that regard. However, my response was to learn and grow, not to assume I was right (or that the church was right.) No one has posted a thoughtful response or rebuttal to what I have described. “Tradition” or “past scholars” is not a thoughtful response. God would never have created a church that required only “learned men” to explain it. It must make sense. Meaning, it must be compatible with the premise of God’s perfection and goodness. All people should be able to see it clearly. It is also strains credulity to only trust/believe in writings of people whose vested interest was to maintain their position of power and wealth. I do not mean to pass blanket judgement on church scholars, but I do mean to mention that it assisted some people to change Jesus’ teachings if it made people feel more scared/guilty ---- resulting in more money given to the VERY rich and VERY powerful church. Such is not remotely as much the case today … but we are relying upon “scholars” from the past, for whom it very much was the case. So, given that God would not create a “confusing religion”, all things should really be easily understood through his unconditional love and goodness. Hell makes no sense, and does not exist. Reincarnation make total sense, and clearly exists. To think otherwise is to call God foolish, inconsistent, unfair, less loving than humans, and less forgiving than humans. I will get great joy when the whole world realizes this, thus knowing how very loved they are. What gain is there to think that hell exists? It keeps priests in business. Jesus would be appalled. If the “business” of religion did not exist, the truth could spread quickly. Consider reading Christopher Martin Bache’s book. If you dare, it will change your mind.

WOW!..??? Satan’s biggest deception is realized when anyone believes there is no hell…He is quite pleased with you.

 

[mattkubes]

Errors: The Church teachings have “evolved” (changed) over the centuries … which is a good thing. This is “proof” that the old teachings (or the new teachings) are wrong or incomplete. Anyone knows this. Examples include which books are in the Bible (as much or more of a political exercise than a holy exercise). The Church’s teachings on Mary have fluctuated widely until modern times.

None of these are changes in doctrine - they are examples of doctrinal development and exercises of the Church’s authority, but not changes in what has been revealed to us.

Bible infallible: No, the Catholic Church does not hold the Bible to be infallible. Look at Paul’s teachings. Women would still need to wear hats, and nuns would not be allowed to teach religion. Paul was extremely sexist — but we write it off as him simply teaching for his times, not for our times. Yes, the Church recognises that the Bible is fallible.

The Bible is the infallible, inerrant written Word of God. The discipline that you referred to was just that - a discipline. It is not an issue of faith and morals stemming from the natural law, and so the Church has the authority to change it.

I won’t address your inflammatory treatment of St. Paul. But I would ask that you use more respect when talking about one of the Church’s greatest Saints.

Internal inconsistency: all biblical scholars know of the inconsistencies between the four gospels; an easy example is the stories of the loaves and fishes (the purpose of the story is consistent, but the details show that not every word is “inspired by God”, as God does not inspire errors.) God is allowing of our free will. Men wrote the Bible, and may have felt inspired to do so, but it did not give them infallibility.

No one claims that the Holy Spirit dictated the scriptures word-for-word to the authors, so you’re creating a strawman here. There is also no error present in the different accounts. Now if one said Jesus multiplied the loaves miraculously, whereas another said the loves were simply cut into immeasurably small pieces, THAT would be an inconsistency. The Truth of the passage remains intact.

So, even if God chooses at a certain time to be just, he would never allow us to be thrown into hell. He is too too too forgiving — “perfectly forgiving” to be exact.

God does not force His forgiveness on anyone, so the existence of free will takes care of that point. Jesus spoke a great deal of Hell and in very clear terms told us that people go there. I’m not sure how that can be ignored.

 

[SteveGC]

I am an older man, after U live for so many years & see so many things namely suffering, terible suffering indeed, I find it hard to Believe that a Loving merciful God would cast some one into hell. I am a man who especially prays for all the souls who have gone before us, some of the condition in which they lived were like hell.I pray for all who have gone before us not only Catholics. The church doesnt seem to be universal in its teachings anymore, You can go from parish to parish these days To hear what u wanna hear. I Love My Church, My main prayer is for Gods Mercy on us all, maybe I am a little wet behind the ears, but God knows My Heart & Your heart & all our hearts

I would certainly not discredit the wisdom of your years, nor the hardships you’ve endured and been witness to. And I find the description of your prayer life and devotional dispositions admirable. As others have emphasized, please do remember that God does not cast into Hell; rather, He submits to our freely chosen separation from Him, even if we choose this separation at the very end of an otherwise noble and righteous life. Nor does the Church proclaim anyone to be in Hell. Yet Hell is very real.

And you’re right; God indeed knows all our hearts. But don’t lose hope in the Church Christ gave the world simply because you think that the wisdom-filled years of your life have revealed something to you about God that The Church is unaware of. This is impossible. The Holy Spirit is first and foremost aligned with the Church. And He comes to you through Her. And so, to The Church you must go to gain your understanding.

And lastly, remember that the Church, in Her true essence, is not a parish-to-parish sampling of theology. Her deposit of faith is consistent, unwavering and yes, universal. Whether an individual Catholic or group of Catholics accept these teachings is irrelevant. Get back into your Catechism. Research encyclicals and historical Councils of The Church. Read the Bible through the lens of this Catholic teaching, and this will never lead you into confusion nor despair.

God Bless

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

The simple answer to this question is that there is no hell. Period. One of our flaws as a church is that we pontificate, and make up things, including more rules. .

By this very statement, you are calling Jesus a liar as Matthews gospel, chapter 25:41 he is quoted as saying, "Out of my sight, you condemned, into that everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels…"

Therefore, hell and eternal damnation is so utterly absurd. What kind of God do you choose to belive in?!!!

Now we have one saying that the Holy Spirit, in guiding the authors of the bible is a liar. We are told that the Holy Spirit will be with us to the end of time and that the gates of HELL shall not prevail. This is the second time you state that Jesus is lying in his statements.

I cannot believe a Catholic would come up with this pack of lies about what the Church believes and teaches. Therefore my conclusion is that you are either (charity prevents me from saying more) or that you are a **TROLL **putting out misinformation such as this to try and get people stirred up. I chose to believe the latter. Therefore your ravings are not worthy of further comment. As ;the saying goes, I am shaking the dust from the sandals of my feet and proceeding to where honest inquiry is desired and addressed.
Sincere prayers and blessings for you
Deacon Ed B

 

[Methodi]

I would certainly not discredit the wisdom of your years, nor the hardships you’ve endured and been witness to. And I find the description of your prayer life and devotional dispositions admirable. As others have emphasized, please do remember that God does not cast into Hell; rather, He submits to our freely chosen separation from Him, even if we choose this separation at the very end of an otherwise noble and righteous life. Nor does the Church proclaim anyone to be in Hell. Yet Hell is very real.

And you’re right; God indeed knows all our hearts. But don’t lose hope in the Church Christ gave the world simply because you think that the wisdom-filled years of your life have revealed something to you about God that The Church is unaware of. This is impossible. The Holy Spirit is first and foremost aligned with the Church. And He comes to you through Her. And so, to The Church you must go to gain your understanding.

And lastly, remember that the Church, in Her true essence, is not a parish-to-parish sampling of theology. Her deposit of faith is consistent, unwavering and yes, universal. Whether an individual Catholic or group of Catholics accept these teachings is irrelevant. Get back into your Catechism. Research encyclicals and historical Councils of The Church. Read the Bible through the lens of this Catholic teaching, and this will never lead you into confusion nor despair.

God Bless

Thank You for that very nice post indeed!

 

[mattkubes]

“Grave” error: that, by definition, is a serious accusation; what have I said that is “bad” or harmful to humanity? Just because you, or the majority of Catholics don’t believe something, doesn’t by definition make that belief punishable by hell. Again, what loving, forgiving God have you lost sight of? One might deem it “bad” to go around being judgmental. But at least if I question if you have done a bad thing, I know that you mean well, and would never be condemned to hell for it.

Bad or harmful to humanity: telling people that Hell does not exist, and that mortal sins do not put their eternal souls in jeopardy. It doesn’t get any more harmful than that (despite how well-intentioned your posts are). Remember, 1 John 5:17 tells us that there are sins that are mortal, and to tell people otherwise is a grave error.

It isn’t that a bunch of Catholics think something is grave that makes it so, it is the radical choice of creature over Creator that constitutes grave matter. The only way you can get around this is by rejecting the teaching authority of the Magisterium.

We’re actually commanded in the Bible to correct our brothers and sisters when they wander from the one true path…this is motivated out of charity. If I see you walking right towards a pit that you can’t see, it’s my Christian duty to tell you to stop walking before you go too far.

 

[FanChan]

Forgive me for putting this bluntly:

Celebration 44, Methodi, and anyone else talking about reincarnation and the like, please take it somewhere else. This is not the place for it. Start another thread somewhere if you want to ruffle feathers. You’ve completely and unnecessarily disrupted the discussion that had been going on regarding actual church teaching. I respect your decision to disregard those teachings - even if I whole-heartedly disagree with you - but please don’t disrespect those of us who do hold to the teachings of the Church and feel the need to discuss the details of them.

 

[Methodi]

Forgive me for putting this bluntly:

Celebration 44, Methodi, and anyone else talking about reincarnation and the like, please take it somewhere else. This is not the place for it. Start another thread somewhere if you want to ruffle feathers. You’ve completely and unnecessarily disrupted the discussion that had been going on regarding actual church teaching. I respect your decision to disregard those teachings - even if I whole-heartedly disagree with you - but please don’t disrespect those of us who do hold to the teachings of the Church and feel the need to discuss the details of them.

I dont think I showed any disrespect, just my opinion about things, heard from the mouthes of priests

 

[Methodi]

Forgive me for putting this bluntly:

Celebration 44, Methodi, and anyone else talking about reincarnation and the like, please take it somewhere else. This is not the place for it. Start another thread somewhere if you want to ruffle feathers. You’ve completely and unnecessarily disrupted the discussion that had been going on regarding actual church teaching. I respect your decision to disregard those teachings - even if I whole-heartedly disagree with you - but please don’t disrespect those of us who do hold to the teachings of the Church and feel the need to discuss the details of them.

Isn`t that what its about here, discussing things

 

[FanChan]

Isn`t that what its about here, discussing things

Sure, discussing the topic. If you want to talk about reincarnation or the idea that there is no hell, then create another thread, but allow us to peacefully continue to discuss the current topic at hand.

 

[Methodi]

Sure, discussing the topic. If you want to talk about reincarnation or the idea that there is no hell, then create another thread, but allow us to peacefully continue to discuss the current topic at hand.

I beg your pardon, but I dont see a lot of peace here, somebody is always at anothers throat

 

[FanChan]

I beg your pardon, but I dont see a lot of peace here, somebody is always at anothers throat

Frankly I think a lot of people see malice where there is none simply because someone opposes their view. From what I saw before, at least in this thread, things seemed to have been carrying on rather peacefully. The real point here is that you guys went off-topic. I’m not saying go to some other website, just start a different thread and leave this one be. It shouldn’t be used as a stage to preach your dissenting beliefs.

 

[Methodi]

Frankly I think a lot of people see malice where there is none simply because someone opposes their view. From what I saw before, at least in this thread, things seemed to have been carrying on rather peacefully. The real point here is that you guys went off-topic. I’m not saying go to some other website, just start a different thread and leave this one be. It shouldn’t be used as a stage to preach your dissenting beliefs.

I don`t believe that my beliefs are dissenting

 

[coda]

Thank You for that very nice post indeed!

TROLL…