Mortal Sin---What is "Full Knowledge"?

[Bookcat]

A person can commit a mortal sin in thought or desire …if it is a grave matter (such as for example deciding to or desiring to do grave harm to someone) and such is done with full knowledge and deliberate consent. This goes for ANY MATTER …not just lust or anger. No action needs to happen externally. Sin is in the will.

Period. This is simply Catholic Moral Theology.

What one finds in texts of Catholic Moral Theology and Theological Courses on Moral Theology.

[II am not pulling things out of a hat*

 

[Bookcat]

Don’t change the rules mid-stream. This is about the OP.

No they have not…I have never pretended to know what goes on within another person. I have always spoken about the fact that a person “can” commit a mortal sin this way…even in the other thread. and I have also said directly to the OP that one can have thoughts etc …and they can be just temptations etc…I have always been very clear …going to great length to say what is and what is not an internal sin…

Right, and there are certain ones. Anger, lust, pride, etc. The seven deadlies. Not, thinking about (but then not) committing a sin that one commits with the body.

Such can be ANY matter …not just 1 …now you add 2…and now it increases to 7! …hopefully you will come all the way (by the way the “seven deadly sins” are not always grave matter…some can often be venial matter…but that is for another day)

Impossible, since no act was actually committed. You cannot “not go to Mass” in your thoughts. It is physically impossible.

You keep trying to go to Mass in your mind. Never said such a thing. One can though Choose for example not to go…and such is with FC and DC mortal by definition…all things being equal

This is ridiculous. Interior sins can only be sins that can actually be committed in the thoughts. Not sins that can only be committed with the body.

I have shown again and again…that yes such can be commited only in ones thoughts…by the will…

 

[jmcrae]

I have shown again and again…that yes such can be commited only in ones thoughts…by the will…

You haven’t shown it; you have only asserted it. It goes against all sense and all logic, and therefore it cannot be Catholic teaching, because Catholic teaching is both sensible and logical.

Also, you seem to be confusing will with wish. A person might wish not to go to Mass, but if they end up at Mass, then obviously, they did not will not to go, or else they would not have gone (unless they were dragged against their will, which does not seem to be the case, here).

 

[Pug]

This is ridiculous. Interior sins can only be sins that can actually be committed in the thoughts. Not sins that can only be committed with the body.

I have never heard this this topic expressed in this way before. Is there something written that says this?

About mass, when is the sin committed? Say I decide not to go to mass on a day of obligation and so I start to barbeque in the backyard and forget all about the topic of mass. Eventually all the possible mass times have slid by, but I didn’t notice at all. I’d already decided, so I didn’t think about the matter further. Was the sin committed when I decided, or when the last possible mass time slid by?

 

[Bookcat]

You haven’t shown it; you have only asserted it. It goes against all sense and all logic, and therefore it cannot be Catholic teaching, because Catholic teaching is both sensible and logical.

Also, you seem to be confusing will with wish. A person might wish not to go to Mass, but if they end up at Mass, then obviously, they did not will not to go, or else they would not have gone (unless they were dragged against their will, which does not seem to be the case, here).

Nope no confusion. I have explained exactly what is the case. …and it is reasonable.

And my statement …my example was "If a person decides to not go to Mass…with full knowledge and complete consent. Such is an example of mortal sin.

For me to say…oh man I wish it was not Sunday …and I did not have to go to Mass…I really want to watch the ball game live! That is a different thing.

 

[Bookcat]

A person can commit a mortal sin in thought or desire …if it is a grave matter (such as for example deciding to or desiring to do grave harm to someone) and such is done with full knowledge and deliberate consent. This goes for ANY MATTER …not just lust or anger. No action needs to happen externally. Sin is in the will.

This is simply Catholic Moral Theology.

What one finds in texts of Catholic Moral Theology and Theological Courses on Moral Theology.

 

[jmcrae]

Nope no confusion. I have explained exactly what is the case. …and it is reasonable.

And my statement …my example was "If a person decides to not go to Mass…with full knowledge and complete consent. Such is an example of mortal sin.

If the decision has been made with full knowledge and full consent, the person would not then later end up at Mass. The ending up at Mass later shows that the “decision” was not yet actually decided.

 

[jmcrae]

Sin is in the will.

And the will is in the action. If it’s a sin of the body, then the will to commit the sin is in the body. If the body does the opposite of what the mind is thinking, then the will was not engaged by the mind - there was no sin.

 

[jmcrae]

About mass, when is the sin committed? Say I decide not to go to mass on a day of obligation and so I start to barbeque in the backyard and forget all about the topic of mass. Eventually all the possible mass times have slid by, but I didn’t notice at all. I’d already decided, so I didn’t think about the matter further. Was the sin committed when I decided, or when the last possible mass time slid by?

The sin is committed when you didn’t go to Mass. It has nothing to do with when you were thinking something, although if thinking something led to not going to Mass, then it led to (but was not itself actually) the sin of not going to Mass.

When you go to Confession, the priest is not going to want to hear about your thought process - all he will want to know is what you did actually do that you weren’t supposed to do, and what you did actually not do that you were supposed to do.

 

[Bookcat]

And the will is in the action. If it’s a sin of the body, then the will to commit the sin is in the body.

Such is not the teaching of the Catholic Church or in Catholic Moral Theology.

Yes one can carry out the sin and make the sin worse …but what you say otherwise is not the case.

If the body does the opposite of what the mind is thinking, then the will was not engaged by the mind - there was no sin.

Maybe…like a person has OCD etc. But we are not talking about “involuntary thoughts”…but about a VERY VOLUNTARY CHOICE

We are not talking about a person with obsessive thoughts “I will not go to Mass”…as he is walking into the Church!

 

[jmcrae]

Such is not the teaching of the Catholic Church or in Catholic Moral Theology.

You keep on saying this, but it goes against every Catechism and every Examination of Conscience I have ever seen or read.

I have never seen the question “Did you think of committing a sin but then didn’t do it?” on any Examen; not even the St. Joseph’s, which is pretty comprehensive.

 

[Bookcat]

You keep on saying this, but it goes against every Catechism and every Examination of Conscience I have ever seen or read.

I have never seen the question “Did you think of committing a sin but then didn’t do it?” on any Examen; not even the St. Joseph’s, which is pretty comprehensive.

Not everything is in every examinition of Conscience …and they depend on who writes them …some are very brief etc. They to get one thinking…not give exhaustive lists.

as for the Catechism:

1852 There are a great many kinds of sins. Scripture provides several lists of them. the Letter to the Galatians contrasts the works of the flesh with the fruit of the Spirit: "Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the Kingdom of God."127

1853 Sins can be distinguished according to their objects, as can every human act; or according to the virtues they oppose, by excess or defect; or according to the commandments they violate. They can also be classed according to whether they concern God, neighbor, or oneself; they can be divided into spiritual and carnal sins, or again as sins in thought, word, deed, or omission. the root of sin is in the heart of man, in his free will, according to the teaching of the Lord: "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a man."128 But in the heart also resides charity, the source of the good and pure works, which sin wounds.

1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."131

 

[Bookcat]

You keep on saying this, but it goes against every Catechism

And of course the Catechism is not a textbook of Catholic Moral Theology…so it is not going to necessarily go into all details of Moral Theology.

One goes to such texts for that…

(oh…and it does not go against the CCC at all …)

 

[Bookcat]

Trust me a person can commit a mortal sin in thought or desire …if it is a grave matter and such is done with full knowledge and deliberate consent.

and really it is the case that this goes for ANY MATTER …not just lust or anger (or the other 5 you have added …) and they do not have to be “done” in action.

 

[Pug]

The sin is committed when you didn’t go to Mass. It has nothing to do with when you were thinking something, although if thinking something led to not going to Mass, then it led to (but was not itself actually) the sin of not going to Mass.

When you go to Confession, the priest is not going to want to hear about your thought process - all he will want to know is what you did actually do that you weren’t supposed to do, and what you did actually not do that you were supposed to do.

I agree, the priest won’t care at what time of day I sinned, nor even which day it was, nor what I was thinking at the time (except to know I did it deliberately and knowingly).

I am not asking about confession though, but loss of grace. When didn’t I go to mass? When did I lose sanctifying grace? When I decided at 8am, or when the last possible mass passed at noon? If you say noon, that seems unfair, since I’d completely forgotten about mass. I would go from a state of grace to a state of sin without consciously doing or thinking or willing anything wrong at that moment.

 

[Bookcat]

The sin is committed when you didn’t go to Mass. It has nothing to do with when you were thinking something, although if thinking something led to not going to Mass, then it led to (but was not itself actually) the sin of not going to Mass.

When you go to Confession, the priest is not going to want to hear about your thought process - all he will want to know is what you did actually do that you weren’t supposed to do, and what you did actually not do that you were supposed to do.

In this case it was the Mortal sin of choosing not to go to Mass.

Person: “I accuse myself of the mortal sin of choosing to skip Sunday Mass (without excusing reason).” “I later repented and went.”

Priest: “Was it just some passing temptation in thoughts ? Or was it a real decision?”

Person:" It was a deliberate decision"

Priest: "And you made it with full knowledge …knowing what you where choosing? and that it was grave?

Person: “Yes I had full knowledge and full consent”

Priest: “Ok ya that would be a mortal sin.” Next time say no to the such thoughts. We really need to be faithful in our thoughts and our actions. For your penance read Scripture for half and hour…

 

[jmcrae]

I agree, the priest won’t care at what time of day I sinned, nor even which day it was, nor what I was thinking at the time (except to know I did it deliberately and knowingly).

Right - so if the priest doesn’t require it, then neither does God or Satan - it is not germane to the sin.

I am not asking about confession though, but loss of grace. When didn’t I go to mass?

That’s like asking, when didn’t I visit the prisoners, or the sick, or give sustenance to the poor? You didn’t do it when it had failed to have been done. You have your whole life to do these things, and you could still potentially do them, but if you get to the end of your life without doing them, then you will have not done them.

When you got to Monday morning without having been to Mass on Sunday, then you “missed Mass on Sunday.” As long as you could still potentially go, you could have changed your mind - in which case, no sin would exist. Not sure why that’s so hard to grasp.

Again - it was not what you were thinking that was the actual sin. Your sin didn’t take place at a specific time of day. The sin was a sin of omission - the sin of not going to Mass. It took place when you didn’t go to Mass, which was not at any specific time (since you had a number of choices of times).

 

[jmcrae]

In this case it was the Mortal sin of choosing not to go to Mass.

Person: “I accuse myself of the mortal sin of choosing to skip Sunday Mass (without excusing reason).” “I later repented and went.”

Priest: “Was it just some passing temptation in thoughts ? Or was it a real decision?”

Person:" It was a deliberate decision"

Priest: "And you made it with full knowledge …knowing what you where choosing? and that it was grave?

Person: “Yes I had full knowledge and full consent”

Priest: “Ok ya that would be a mortal sin.” Next time say no to the such thoughts. We really need to be faithful in our thoughts and our actions. For your penance read Scripture for half and hour…

That doesn’t sound like any priest I’ve ever met, including the Latin Mass priest - all of them would think this was ridiculous. They certainly wouldn’t assign a penance for a sin that was never committed.

 

[jmcrae]

In this case it was the Mortal sin of choosing not to go to Mass.

There is no such sin. The sin is to not go to Mass. The Examen doesn’t ask “Did you make a decision not to go to Mass and then changed your mind?” No. It only asks, “Did you attend Mass on Sunday and on every Holy Day of Obligation?” It makes no allusion to what you may or may not have been thinking about.

Person: “I accuse myself of the mortal sin of choosing to skip Sunday Mass (without excusing reason).” “I later repented and went.”

Priest: What sin do you think you committed?

Person: “Well, I made a deliberate decision not to go to Mass and then I changed my mind and went. It was a deliberate decision”

Priest: “If it was deliberate, then how did you end up at Mass?”

Person: “I later changed my mind and went.”

Priest: “Did you arrive before the Gospel and remain until after the final blessing?”

Person: “Yes.”

Priest: “I cannot grant you the Absolution, because you have not committed any sin. Go in peace.”

 

[Bookcat]

That doesn’t sound like any priest I’ve ever met, including the Latin Mass priest - all of them would think this was ridiculous. They certainly wouldn’t assign a penance for a sin that was never committed.

Your are incorrect…

Just go read works of Catholic Moral Theology,