Mortal Sin---What is "Full Knowledge"?

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(I am not just “pulling this out of a hat” …I have a very sound background in Catholic Theology…a degree in Theology from Franciscan University of Steubenville…and can assure you this is what one will find too in the texts on Catholic Moral Theology)
I hope you got a passing grade …

Again - thinking about doing something is not at all the same thing as actually doing it.

There are interior sins, but they have nothing whatsoever to do with exterior actions, and only a very tangential relationship with thinking about exterior actions. (For example a person who is lusting might be thinking about having sex - but thinking about having sex is not a sin. Only the lusting part - the objectification of another person’s body - is sinful.)
 
I hope you got a passing grade …

Yes …with honors…🙂

Again - thinking about doing something is not at all the same thing as actually doing it.

Thinking about doing something is not the same thing as actually doing it.

Yes of course.

There are interior sins, but they have nothing whatsoever to do with exterior actions, and only a very tangential relationship with thinking about exterior actions.

I would not say that though. They can very much have to do with exterior actions.

(For example a person who is lusting might be thinking about having sex - but thinking about having sex is not a sin.

Thinking about having sex can be a sin. Even if not lust. Yes. For example approving of someones sexual sins interiorly is not an act of personal lust…but it is grave matter for mortal sin. Or thinking about having sex in such a way that it is a near occasion of lust and one knowingly continues without good reason knowing one will fall into lust etc…Or thinking lustfully about having sex…also grave matter… or thinking about having sex when one ought not…like thinking about having sex with someone not your wife…etc

Only the lusting part - the objectification of another person’s body - is sinful.)

Such is not the case…various ways one can sin in thinking of sexual matters…
now can one think about the subject of sexually and not sin? yes of course…otherwise one would not be able to study Catholic sexual morality …you are right in that not all thoughts of sex are sins. But there are more than one way to sin by thoughts in this matter…

There really is no sense here in arguing that one needs external action to sin mortally…(besides lust)…for what I keep repeating and repeating is Catholic Moral theology . And I keep doing so…for such is simply the case. 🙂
 
Thank you so much for your kindness. It really does mean a lot!

I guess what it boils down to is a sort of crisis of faith. See, I was born and raised Catholic- Catholic grade school, high school, all the sacraments including Confirmation and even married in the Vatican. Well, in all this time, I was not taught everything about the Church, especially about things like the authority of the Church.

When I went to my adult Confirmation class, we were taught by the priest there about the “test of conscience”. He said that if you know the CC’s position on something (say, ABC), masturbation, etc.), and, after sufficient study and full reflection and even prayer, if you STILL disagree in your heart with church teaching, then you must follow your conscience and that God does not punish people for doing this, because they are following their conscience and have put their best effort into doing the right thing. I was also under the impression that the only time the CC was infallible was when the Pope spoke Ex-Cathedra. To tell the truth, I didn’t even believe in Hell as the CC understands it (I’m not sure I do even now).

Well, about 6 months ago, I find this site and I’m being told that unless I believe every single doctrine of the CC, I’m not even a Catholic. I’m being told that even if my conscience tells me something different, I am supposed to just go along with whatever the Church says. I’m being told that the CC is infallible on everything regarding faith and morals, which I have trouble with.

The catechism in one place tells me I need to submit my will to Church authority and then in another place tells me that I MUST follow my conscience and that it is where God speaks to every man in his heart.

I’m being told that I don’t even have to do anything to commit a mortal sin, that if one Sunday I decide not to go to mass and then realize “no, that’s wrong” and go anyway, that I’m still in mortal sin because I decided at one point not to go, so even though I ended up DOING the right thing, I’m still going to Hell.

I just feel like I’ve been told so many things by so many different people (many of them priests!) and it seems very vague and arbitrary to me. What one person says is a mortal sin, another person says no way. Even the Catechism seems contradictory sometimes. I just feel really bogged down in a lot of legalism and jargon and wordplay and I don’t feel like I can just love God and try to be a good person because of all these technicalities.

Ugh 😦
I understand your frustration with growing up and thinking you have been told the truth about what the Church teaches and now finding that maybe you weren’t, or that there is something you weren’t told. You are left not knowing for sure what to think, I imagine, nor how to fix your pickle of trying to figure out exactly what is right.

The voice of truth is hard to discern when there are many voices. Most people on this site (or in your parish, etc.) are telling you the truth as they understand it, and as they have the capacity to explain it. 🙂 I doubt people are trying to get it wrong for you. What helped me was finally hearing a Catholic voice that I recognized as true and faithful. Then, once I had a large, solid sample, I could pick it out from the crowd again, and at that point I realized the message *was *consistent. For me, it was reading what some Doctors of the Church wrote. It was St. Teresa of Ávila and St John of the Cross. Both wrote about, oh, 500 years ago. I could see how a well centered Catholic viewed things after reading them.

That’s why so many recommend the Catechism to you, because they are confident its voice won’t lead you wrong. But as you point out, if you don’t know how to piece it together, it can seem contradictory. (I mean about how you mention you are reading in the CCC about conscience). If you truly know that to do a particular thing is against God’s law (ie your real conscience tells you it is wrong to do), then do not do that thing. This is indeed so. Your own mind would condemn you for doing it.

Just to be sure there is no confusion in the peanut gallery, yes, the real conscience could be ignorant of the truth, but if it is truly ignorant, the person will not realize this. And, what I said is unlikely to apply to masturbation, for example, because typically people don’t find themselves believing in their heart that this evening it would be against God’s law for them to fail to masturbate.

By the way, you are Catholic. 🙂 The Church is infallible, but only in set circumstances, which are detailed in the CCC. The column written by your bishop in the local diocesan paper is not infallible, for example, not in itself. He might write about topics that are infallibly taught, though. It is possible to commit a mortal sin in thought, without getting to a deed. Probably, though, it was not mortal of you to hesitate that day about going to mass. You would have some inkling if it were, and you don’t have an inkling. If it bothers you, do go to confession and mention it anyway. That way you will get rid of it from bothering you.

You can love God and try to be a good person! Truly love God, and humbly accept how he wants to direct your life. Take up your cross daily and follow Jesus, denying yourself. This method does work! I can honestly tell you that for me this dovetails beautifully with living a Catholic life. Living a Catholic life only seems to help me on this path. Pray to the Holy Spirit to show you the way. I think you are doing that anyway, of course, but it never hurts to suggest it. 😃

Praying for you :gopray2:

Pug

P.S. I was very busy today, and this thread filled up with posts while I was busy, so if I missed something, I apologize. I didn’t get every one read very well. How cool that you got married in the Vatican!
 
Yikes :D, I don’t know if I want to get into the fray about the parable of the two sons, but I think it is about repentance. Sinners and such repent and so go into the kingdom of God. When we repent as we ought, we do go home justified. The son who said no later repented and then went and did what was asked of him by his father.

For a Catholic, part of the process when we repent of a grave sin is to go to confession before communion. No need of that for a small sin, though.
 
I understand your frustration with growing up and thinking you have been told the truth about what the Church teaches and now finding that maybe you weren’t, or that there is something you weren’t told. You are left not knowing for sure what to think, I imagine, nor how to fix your pickle of trying to figure out exactly what is right.

The voice of truth is hard to discern when there are many voices. Most people on this site (or in your parish, etc.) are telling you the truth as they understand it, and as they have the capacity to explain it. 🙂 I doubt people are trying to get it wrong for you. What helped me was finally hearing a Catholic voice that I recognized as true and faithful. Then, once I had a large, solid sample, I could pick it out from the crowd again, and at that point I realized the message *was *consistent. For me, it was reading what some Doctors of the Church wrote. It was St. Teresa of Ávila and St John of the Cross. Both wrote about, oh, 500 years ago. I could see how a well centered Catholic viewed things after reading them.

That’s why so many recommend the Catechism to you, because they are confident its voice won’t lead you wrong. But as you point out, if you don’t know how to piece it together, it can seem contradictory. (I mean about how you mention you are reading in the CCC about conscience). If you truly know that to do a particular thing is against God’s law (ie your real conscience tells you it is wrong to do), then do not do that thing. This is indeed so. Your own mind would condemn you for doing it.

Just to be sure there is no confusion in the peanut gallery, yes, the real conscience could be ignorant of the truth, but if it is truly ignorant, the person will not realize this. And, what I said is unlikely to apply to masturbation, for example, because typically people don’t find themselves believing in their heart that this evening it would be against God’s law for them to fail to masturbate.

By the way, you are Catholic. 🙂 The Church is infallible, but only in set circumstances, which are detailed in the CCC. The column written by your bishop in the local diocesan paper is not infallible, for example, not in itself. He might write about topics that are infallibly taught, though. It is possible to commit a mortal sin in thought, without getting to a deed. Probably, though, it was not mortal of you to hesitate that day about going to mass. You would have some inkling if it were, and you don’t have an inkling. If it bothers you, do go to confession and mention it anyway. That way you will get rid of it from bothering you.

You can love God and try to be a good person! Truly love God, and humbly accept how he wants to direct your life. Take up your cross daily and follow Jesus, denying yourself. This method does work! I can honestly tell you that for me this dovetails beautifully with living a Catholic life. Living a Catholic life only seems to help me on this path. Pray to the Holy Spirit to show you the way. I think you are doing that anyway, of course, but it never hurts to suggest it. 😃

Praying for you :gopray2:

Pug

P.S. I was very busy today, and this thread filled up with posts while I was busy, so if I missed something, I apologize. I didn’t get every one read very well. How cool that you got married in the Vatican!
I cannot tell you how much I appreciate this post. I know I’m not the best Catholic in the world, but I find it upsetting when some people on this site are so quick to call one a heretic or a “cafeteria Catholic” or to tell one to just go and join a Protestant church. I love Catholicism, and while I struggle with certain aspects of it, I am trying!

I struggle with mortal sin because just when I feel like I have a handle on it and I’m going months and months without committing one, I am hearing that just THINKING about some things might be a mortal sin, and I don’t feel it! You know, they always say that if you commit one, you know it…well, lately I’m feeling like I may be going to Hell and not even know it! I’m trying Jesus!!! Please be merciful!

Oh and it was AMAZING getting married in the Vatican! I never knew it was possible until I Googled it just out of curiosity after I got engaged. Of course, there are a lot of hoops to jump through, but it was absolutely worth it 🙂
 
There really is no sense here in arguing that one needs external action to sin mortally…(besides lust)…for what I keep repeating and repeating is Catholic Moral theology . And I keep doing so…for such is simply the case. 🙂
Since Catholic teaching has to make sense in the real world, there is something seriously wrong with this teaching. Random thoughts passing through the mind cannot be sinful, because they are not willed - sin, before it can be mortal, has to be willful - and in the case of sins that are actions, they also have to be done with the body; not only in the mind.

Therefore, whatever it was that you were taught, is incorrect, even if you got honours in it.
 
Since Catholic teaching has to make sense in the real world, there is something seriously wrong with this teaching. Random thoughts passing through the mind cannot be sinful, because they are not willed - sin, before it can be mortal, has to be willful - and in the case of sins that are actions, they also have to be done with the body; not only in the mind.

Therefore, whatever it was that you were taught, is incorrect, even if you got honours in it.
The other poster is not talking about random passing thoughts. They are talking about deliberate acts of the will (mental sins, like “lust in the heart”) to do evil. This destinction appears to be the source of your confusion.
 
Since Catholic teaching has to make sense in the real world, there is something seriously wrong with this teaching. Random thoughts passing through the mind cannot be sinful, because they are not willed - sin, before it can be mortal, has to be willful - and in the case of sins that are actions, they also have to be done with the body; not only in the mind.

Therefore, whatever it was that you were taught, is incorrect, even if you got honours in it.
Please go back and read my posts… It is all explained there.

NOWHERE did I say "random thoughts passing through the mind without any will…any consent were sinful!!!

I Never said such. In fact (not yelling here…caps for for emphasis) I HAVE REPEATEDLY SAID SUCH WAS NOT THE CASE. Giving very detailed posts about this.

What I was taught and what have studied and what I have been relating here and elsewhere is the case.

Again to repeat. I can commit a mortal sin in thought …if it is a grave matter (such as for example deciding to or desiring to do grave harm to someone) and such is done with full knowledge and deliberate consent. ANY GRAVE MATTER …not just lust. NO ACTION NEED BE DONE EXTERNALLY.

Period. This is simply Catholic Moral Theology.

If your going to respond to posts …please read all the posts…thanks.
 
and in the case of sins that are actions, they also have to be done with the body; not only in the mind.

Yes the sin of “murder in action” must be done in the body to be the act of murder.

But to will to murder someone with full knowledge and complete consent is already Mortal sin.

Heck I do not even have to desire to murder him…I can just desire that grave harm come to him.

Catechism:

2303 Deliberate hatred is contrary to charity. Hatred of the neighbor is a sin when one deliberately wishes him evil. Hatred of the neighbor is a grave sin when one deliberately **desires **him grave harm. “But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven.”

No external action whatsoever.

Internal sins do NOT only take place with lust. The can happen with ANY grave matter.
 
Please go back and read my posts… It is all explained there.

NOWHERE did I say "random thoughts passing through the mind without any will…any consent were sinful!!!

I Never said such. In fact (not yelling here…caps for for emphasis) I HAVE REPEATEDLY SAID SUCH WAS NOT THE CASE. Giving very detailed posts about this.

What I was taught and what have studied and what I have been relating here and elsewhere is the case.

Again to repeat. I can commit a mortal sin in thought …if it is a grave matter (such as for example deciding to or desiring to do grave harm to someone) and such is done with full knowledge and deliberate consent. ANY GRAVE MATTER …not just lust. NO ACTION NEED BE DONE EXTERNALLY.

Period. This is simply Catholic Moral Theology.

If your going to respond to posts …please read all the posts…thanks.
It remains impossible to “not go to Mass” in your thoughts. Can’t be done.
 
The other poster is not talking about random passing thoughts. They are talking about deliberate acts of the will (mental sins, like “lust in the heart”) to do evil. This destinction appears to be the source of your confusion.
How does a person “not go to Mass” in his thoughts, if in his body, he goes to Mass, and prays with the Liturgy in his heart when he gets there? 🤷

The topic is not lust, or anger - the topic is, the girl randomly thought, I don’t want to go to Mass, but then when it came time to go to Mass, she went to Mass, and she participated in it fully.

Where is the mortal sin that she must repent of, before she can receive Holy Communion? Did she receive unworthily? I don’t think so.
 
How does a person “not go to Mass” in his thoughts, if in his body, he goes to Mass, and prays with the Liturgy in his heart when he gets there? 🤷

The topic is not lust, or anger - the topic is, the girl randomly thought, I don’t want to go to Mass, but then when it came time to go to Mass, she went to Mass, and she participated in it fully.

Where is the mortal sin that she must repent of, before she can receive Holy Communion? Did she receive unworthily? I don’t think so.
The Topic is NOT did a person commit a mortal sin by some random thought. This has not been the topic …I have been clear what is needed for mortal sin in thought.

IF a person for example with full knowledge and deliberate consent decides in their mind…in their thoughts …(we are not talking about temptation, some non-sinful fleeting thoughts, or random thoughts that are not given full consent…or OCD etc) …not to go to Mass on a Sunday or Holy Day of Obligation (without excusing reason) such is by definition a mortal sin.

The fact that the person repented…and went yes is good. And yes they fulfilled their obligation in the end. But they still committed a mortal sin in that choice not to go.

AND

Interior mortal sins…are NOT just Lust or Anger …but are in ANY grave matter one chooses etc.

The Catechism quoted above is talking about “desiring to do grave harm” to someone. This TOO is mortal sin.

Such is the case with any grave matter.

Such is Catholic Moral Theology
 
It remains impossible to “not go to Mass” in your thoughts. Can’t be done.
Your setting up an artificial arguement.

We are not talking about “not going to Mass” in your thoughts…we are talking about in your thoughts for example deciding not to go. Such a choice with full knowledge and complete consent is a mortal sin.
 
Interior mortal sins…are NOT just Lust or Anger …but are in ANY grave matter one chooses etc.

The Catechism quoted above is talking about “desiring to do grave harm” to someone. This TOO is mortal sin.

Such is the case with any grave matter.

One can commit a mortal sin interiorly and never act on it outwardly. The Church and Moral theology is clear on this. Sins are of though…word…deed…etc. One does not need to act on such to commit a mortal sin.

But one can use any number of things…it is not “just lust”…“or anger”
With full knowledge and complete consent today on Wedsday:

A person can decide to steal $10,000 from their employer.
A person can decide to go buy pornography
A person can decide to lie under oath in court
A person can decide to not go to Mass (without excusing reason)
A person can decide to commit adultery
A person can decide to detract seriously
A person can decide to calumnate seriously
A person can decide to go look lustfully at women
A person can decide to reject the Catholic Faith
A person can decide to beat their elderly mother
A person can decide to rob a liquor store
A person can decide to get drunk (loosing their reason)
A person can decide to do grave harm to someone
A person can decide to use contraception

(and not just in “decisions to act” even if not carried to act…but can happen in desire too…)

etc etc etc

and thus commit mortal sin today on Tuesday…

and the next day…tomorrow on Thursday…when it comes to actually do it…they may be prevented or they may even repent…but they have still committed (all things being equal) a mortal sin if they had full knowledge and deliberate consent.

(not that a day has to come in between!)

Now this is different from a person being “tempted” to do such…etc

But Yes

Sin can happen…all unseen…in ones thoughts…ones “heart”…by ones “will”.

And YES …sins of thought etc can happen with ANY matter Not just Lust and Anger.
 
Interior mortal sins…are NOT just Lust or Anger …but are in ANY grave matter one chooses etc.

The Catechism quoted above is talking about “desiring to do grave harm” to someone. This TOO is mortal sin.

Such is the case with any grave matter.

One can commit a mortal sin interiorly and never act on it outwardly. The Church and Moral theology is clear on this. Sins are of though…word…deed…etc. One does not need to act on such to commit a mortal sin.

But one can use any number of things…it is not “just lust”…“or anger”
With full knowledge and complete consent today on Wedsday:

A person can decide to steal $10,000 from their employer.
A person can decide to go buy pornography
A person can decide to lie under oath in court
A person can decide to not go to Mass (without excusing reason)
A person can decide to commit adultery
A person can decide to detract seriously
A person can decide to calumnate seriously
A person can decide to go look lustfully at women
A person can decide to reject the Catholic Faith
A person can decide to beat their elderly mother
A person can decide to rob a liquor store
A person can decide to get drunk (loosing their reason)
A person can decide to do grave harm to someone
A person can decide to use contraception

(and not just in “decisions to act” even if not carried to act…but can happen in desire too…)

etc etc etc

and thus commit mortal sin today on Tuesday…

and the next day…tomorrow on Thursday…when it comes to actually do it…they may be prevented or they may even repent…but they have still committed (all things being equal) a mortal sin if they had full knowledge and deliberate consent.

(not that a day has to come in between!)

Now this is different from a person being “tempted” to do such…etc

But Yes

Sin can happen…all unseen…in ones thoughts…ones “heart”…by ones “will”.

And YES …sins of thought etc can happen with ANY matter Not just Lust and Anger.
This is a recipe for extremely unhealthy scrupulosity, and thus, cannot possibly be authentic Catholic teaching.

Again, sins that you do in your body have to be done with the body. Thinking about them is not a sin.

Desiring to harm someone is the sin of anger - it is not the sin of murder. Murder and anger are two totally different sins, although yes, they are related, and anger often leads to harm or murder - two sins, not one, and certainly not the same thing.
 
The Topic is NOT did a person commit a mortal sin by some random thought. This has not been the topic …I have been clear what is needed for mortal sin in thought.

IF a person for example with full knowledge and deliberate consent decides in their mind…in their thoughts …(we are not talking about temptation, some non-sinful fleeting thoughts, or random thoughts that are not given full consent…or OCD etc) …not to go to Mass on a Sunday or Holy Day of Obligation (without excusing reason) such is by definition a mortal sin.
If she had deliberately consented, then how did she end up at Mass?

The fact that she ended up at Mass (assuming she was not dragged there against her will) shows that there was no consent - it was just a thought - she did not act on the thought. No action means no consent, in this case.
 
If she had deliberately consented, then how did she end up at Mass?

The fact that she ended up at Mass (assuming she was not dragged there against her will) shows that there was no consent - it was just a thought - she did not act on the thought. No action means no consent, in this case.
I am not talking about a particular person.

But YES one can sin internally (it is called “internal sin” or I like to say “interior sin”…a sin of thought or desire) …for example they can choose NOT to go to Mass …and make such a deliberate choice with full consent…and with full knowledge. They have just committed a mortal sin. Internal sins are not just about lust or anger…but can be in any grave matter.

Then say…a couple hours later…they make a NEW …a different choice to “Change their mind” and they get into the car and drive to Mass and so there they are at Mass (in need of a Priest for Confession for their mortal sin of the morning)…but they are now there at Mass after the NEW choice.

One in this case …does not have to act outwardly to commit a mortal sin.

In another case…

If a person does NOT make a choice …a decision not to go to Mass…but say has passing thoughts…temptations not to go…but does not will full knowledge and complete consent decide not to go…but are just tempted all morning…but in the end gets in the car and goes to Mass…they have not committed any mortal sin (assuming what I described is all that happened) but have though tempted…made a choice to not consent and to go to Mass…and actually do so. No mortal sin.
 
This is a recipe for extremely unhealthy scrupulosity, and thus, cannot possibly be authentic Catholic teaching.

Again, sins that you do in your body have to be done with the body. Thinking about them is not a sin.

Desiring to harm someone is the sin of anger - it is not the sin of murder. Murder and anger are two totally different sins, although yes, they are related, and anger often leads to harm or murder - two sins, not one, and certainly not the same thing.
Sorry …not the case. (and I have described when a thought is a sin…and when not…)

Oh and the Catechism is talking not just about “anger” but about simply “desiring” to harm someone gravely. It can be because one is seriously angry at them …or just cause one does not like them… Any such sinful desire is a grave matter for mortal sin (with FK and DC)
 
I am not talking about a particular person.
Don’t change the rules mid-stream. This is about the OP.
But YES one can sin internally (it is called “internal sin” or I like to say “interior sin”…a sin of thought or desire)
Right, and there are certain ones. Anger, lust, pride, etc. The seven deadlies. Not, thinking about (but then not) committing a sin that one commits with the body.
…for example they can choose NOT to go to Mass …and make such a deliberate choice with full consent…and with full knowledge. They have just committed a mortal sin.
Impossible, since no act was actually committed. You cannot “not go to Mass” in your thoughts. It is physically impossible.
Internal sins are not just about lust or anger…but can be in any grave matter.
This is ridiculous. Interior sins can only be sins that can actually be committed in the thoughts. Not sins that can only be committed with the body.
 
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