Most common abuse at mass today.

[MaggieOH]

Bill_A:

I think as Good Catholics maybe we should come up with our own lay church doctrine. Thats we should address the Cardinals and the Pope. If Such Liturgical Abuse is to continue in the spirit of Vatican II, it is the work of Satan if the Nature of abuse is to rebell against the church, the cardinal or the Pope to and Cause trouble in the church. Such problems should be addressed as such and we should all pray to Saint Michael for his intercession to drive such practices out of the church.

Than we should list all the Abuses.

Cell Phones ringing in Church. People talking. (We could get cell phone Jammers.)
Priest not adminsitering communion correctly to ECM.
Priest saying mass out of order.
Intention of Pastor to cause trouble with Cardinal.
Loss of Pioty at Mass.

It is not an abuse for the priest to say the Mass out of order. Sometimes the priest might forget to say a prayer because he has forgotten that it is a solemnity and if he then recites the prayer at the end of the Mass, then he has not committed an abused. Just my thoughts.

MaggieOH

 

[MaggieOH]

Agomemnon:

What arrogance and ignorace combined into one response.
Perhaps if you would READ the Council documents…not one of the abuses I mentioned were legitimized by Vatican II. Not ONE!

Communion in the Hand was continually condemned by Pope Paul VI and his capitulation to the abuse by granting an indult (but still claiming we are to recieve as the universal norm communion on the tongue) set the stage. Pope Paul VI warned that a loss of faith and reverence could result in communion in the hand. JPII has continually stated that the Universal norm for reception of communion is on the tongue.

Inaestimable Donum, Altae Sunt and ALL POPES and PATRIARCHS that have ever stated anything on girls/women serving has always been condemned as an evil practice and contrary to the Liturgy. JPII falls down and breaks a hip and ‘magically’ some prelates pushes an abuse causing document. By the way…take a look at the supposed indult and its restrictions…not one could be permitted in the USA.NOT ONE.
Don’t complain about the shortage of priests when you sanction the destruction of the recruiting and training ground.

And for EMHC’s…Inaestimable Donum and the RS both confirm that its regularized use is an abuse.

Not one was legitimized by Vatican II and not one can be permitted in accord with all the Missals made since Trent. (All except the latest novelty liturgical nightmare foisted upon us)

those heretics your mentioned: pro-aborts, pro-homosexuals and contracepting (intrinsically evil) congregants rely on the liturgical confusion and destruction to spread their doctrinal confusion and destruction of the Church.

Vatican II DID give me the right and obligation to voice my concerns on such things as the liturgy and to call out against abuse and errors. I’m following Vatican II in that regard.

Jesus told his Apostles to “Take and eat” he did not say “Stick out your tongue and I will pop this piece of bread on it”.

MaggieOH

 

[MaggieOH]

luke2219:

Ditto. That’s just what I was going to say. Speaking of cell phones going off. A friend of mine was receiving Communion kneeling at an alter rail and his cell phone when off at that exact moment. He cursed in astonishment right before receiving and at the same time turned red from head to toe. That is embarrasing. Also I was at a daily mass in a small chapel once and a cell phone started ringing. Everyone was looking around a checking their phones, but it turns out, it was the priest’s phone! Thought that was funny.

Pax et bonum

Yes, I had a similar experience on a Saturday morning when the Mass was being concelebrated. The phone went off just as we were reciting the Our Father. I was at the front and I noticed the sheepish actions of one of the priests as he reached into his pocket to turn off the offending phone.

MaggieOH

 

[MaggieOH]

fix:

I apologize for not being an attorney that parses each word before it comes out of me. My intention was to convey that the parents are the ones inticing the girls to be altar girls. Some of the parents do it becuase they have an agenda and some do it becuase they are trendy and have not thought about the implications very deeply.

I think the altar boys should be free to be young men learning about the priest and what he does. I was an altar boy and my priest encouraged me to think about the priesthood. It makes good sense. We are all too PC these days. Sheesh.

There are several counterpoints that can be made on the subject of the use of Altar girls:

1. It is the girls who make the decision to serve in this capacity and not their parents.
2. A majority of boys who have been Altar servers do not go on to seminary. I have three sons. All of my sons served in this capacity. None have expressed a desire to be priests.
3. The girls have been proving to be more pious in their attendance as Altar servers (or at least that is what I have observed).
4. There has not been a drop in the ratio of boys:girls who act as servers (at least not in my parish).

If the boys do not want to act as altar servers then we need the girls to take on the role instead. We also have adult male acolytes, and it is the acolyte who does most of the work not the Altar servers.

MaggieOH

 

[netmilsmom]

Island Oak:

Who’da thunk it…Jesus himself engaged in liturgical abuse. Imagine the GALL of using REAL BREAD, in a ritual that recreates and memorializes the events of the Last Supper, in the same manner our Lord did. What IS this world coming to?!?

Um, I think don’t think Jesus used Wonder Bread at the last supper…
The Passover Bread - Which Bread did Jesus Eat before he died?
Was leavened Bread Used at the Last Supper?

by
Lori Eldridge

This study is part of a larger study of What Day of the Week Christ Died
The following is an attempt to show that the bread used at the Last Supper was not leavened and therefore this was indeed a Passover. There are two words used for bread in the New Testament, one for unleavened bread and another for regular bread. It has been claimed that the bread that Jesus broke at the Last Supper was not unleavened bread (Matzos in Hebrew/Azumos in the Greek) and therefore this could not be a real Passover. But is this truly the case?

(all scriptures are NIV unless otherwise noted)
God gave the Israelites specific instructions on how they were to observe the Passover in Exodus:

"That same night [Nisan 14] they are to eat the meat roasted over the fire, along with bitter herbs, and bread made without yeast."(Exodus 12:1-12).

Jesus’ disciples indicated this was a Passover meal they were preparing:

"Where do you want us to make preparations for you to eat the Passover?" (Matt 26:17).

So they did go to specifically prepare a Passover meal.

And here we see which bread Jesus used:

"While they were eating, Jesus took bread (artos Strong's #740), gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, 'Take and eat; this is my body' " (Matt. 26:26).

Question: Why is the word artos (Strongs #740) used in Matt 26:26, and also for the shewbread in the temple (Matt. 17:24) if it was leavened? By looking at all the occurances of artos in the NT we see it can mean just general bread, or any kind of food, sustenance and even manna, and is often also used metaphorically.

The word shewbread is a combination of two words, prothesis which means “a setting forth” and artos (Strongs # 740) a loaf of bread, i.e., “the loaves of the setting forth.” If artos always has leaven in it then why wasn’t the word azumos (Strongs # 106–unleavened bread) used instead, to signify shewbread or the bread Jesus used at their Passover dinner???

The word for Unleavened bread azumos is (Strong’s # 106) and is used in the following passage:
"On the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread (azumos Strong's # 106), the disciples came to Jesus and asked, 'Where do you want us to make preparations for you to eat the Passover?" (Matt 26:17).

 

[Wolseley]

I said lack of piety—because all the other hang on that one.

I have said for years that the major problem in Catholic parishes is lack of reverence and respect for Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament.

 

[mick46060]

Wolseley:

I said lack of piety—because all the other hang on that one.

I have said for years that the major problem in Catholic parishes is lack of reverence and respect for Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament.

AMEN ! – The best response of them all. None of the other abuses would begin or be taking place if each person (including the ordained) were truly fixed and focused on Christ and his sacrifice for us. Truly placing oneself in the Body of Christ during Mass extinguishes nearly everyone of the previous mentioned abuses.

From the sounds of the majority of all these responses the Pope has a heck of alot more people lined up to be saints than he realizes.

 

[fix]

MaggieOH:

There are several counterpoints that can be made on the subject of the use of Altar girls:

1. It is the girls who make the decision to serve in this capacity and not their parents.
2. A majority of boys who have been Altar servers do not go on to seminary. I have three sons. All of my sons served in this capacity. None have expressed a desire to be priests.
3. The girls have been proving to be more pious in their attendance as Altar servers (or at least that is what I have observed).
4. There has not been a drop in the ratio of boys:girls who act as servers (at least not in my parish).

If the boys do not want to act as altar servers then we need the girls to take on the role instead. We also have adult male acolytes, and it is the acolyte who does most of the work not the Altar servers.

MaggieOH

"There still are altar boys around. But, from what I can see, not that many, certainly not many boys of high school age. What happened? I think it is pretty clear. Older boys are unwilling to take the catcalls from their friends about caring for the candles and linens on Sunday with Suzie Brown…

Feminist and New Age-types will insist that serving at Mass should not be the early stages of some Catholic good old boy network. I can hear the schoolmarmish voices of reproach admonishing that upstanding and “sensitive” young men should learn to rise above their macho derision of “girl’s work,” and be a real man. You know, like Alan Alda…

And I suggest that the feminists have just such a transformation in mind; that the call for altar girls is part of a package being pushed by ideologues within the Church who have no love for the Church and who seek to reshape us to satisfy the likes of Gloria Steinem and Hillary Clinton…

One would think that those updating Catholics who have pushed for decades now for “relevant” and “meaningful” liturgies — everything from folk Masses to puppet Masses to church murals picturing Christ as a Third World guerrilla — would have been willing to find room to “indulge” the cultural identity of the mainstream American male when they considered the question of girls serving Mass. That they bristled at this notion instead suggests a zealotry informed more by feminist ideology than by the best interests of the Church."

catholicexchange.com/vm/index.asp?vm_id=1&art_id=17412

 

[katherine2]

"There still are altar boys around. But, from what I can see, not that many, certainly not many boys of high school age. What happened? I think it is pretty clear.

Where I come from, 90% high school boys would welcome the opportunity to serve alongside some high school girls. 10% would prefer it just be the boys.

 

[MarkInOregon]

fix:

We are not supposed to be liturgical archeologists.
What exactly does this mean? Aren’t many calling us to go back to the 1962 Latin Mass? The Mass has one essential part–the one and only part given to us by Christ–all the rest has been added over time by the Church–as is her right–and the Church still has the right to make changes to the liturgy–is it wrong to examine liturgical practice and see if Changes are needed? I say this because many seem to imply that even approved changes are an abuse.

The current use of female servers started without permission. Like so many other practices today the rebellious attitude of many is persecuting the faithful. I don’t know if it is persecuting me–but when so many don’t hold to the teachings of the Church–it makes it harder to follow those teachings simply out of the confussion it causes and it puts a lot more work on our shoulders to make sure we are following the true teaching of the Church.

What do female deacons, who were never ordained, have to do with the current illicitness of so many practices that have crept into the holy sacrifice of the mass?
I was commenting on a post in response to a post that seemed to imply we had never had women servers in the Church until post Vatican II–thats not really true and I was pointing it out. Luckily I do not see the abuses that so many seem to see.
The mass is not our private property. This has been my point all along–it is the communites worship–not our own private prayer service.

The peace of Christ be with you,
Mark

 

[teresas1979]

And I thought I was the one with issues with Catholicism!

If you dont like the wonderful progressions the Church has made (the only reason Im considering remaining Catholic) then dont go. But at least try and be christian and stop judging people. You are why young people like myself struggle to stay in Church, you tut tut tut at us for breathing out of place (I’m nearly 26 and can do without it thank you) and then when you dont make it to Heaven you wont understand its beacuse you’re not following Catholicism as it was meant (Christ’s Church) but how you want it.

What does Jesus think of your pettiness? If people are trying to lead good lives in His name I’m not sure He cares except to be unimpressed with judgemental attitudes

 

[fix]

katherine2:

Where I come from, 90% high school boys would welcome the opportunity to serve alongside some high school girls. 10% would prefer it just be the boys.

"Now, as all of you know, I will never be married, and I will never have a
son. But in my ministry I do at times get a small taste of what a proud
father feels, especially, if not exclusively, when I work with my altar
boys. When I train and rehearse them, I try to pass on to them something
of myself. I try to give them my love for the Mass, my sense of reverence
for it, my conviction that the Mass is the most important event ever to
take place on any given day. I give them skills which make them able to
participate in what I do, and thus make them one with me, as I make
present on the altar a great mystery that they can only begin to
comprehend. And I hold in my heart a hope – a hope that applies only to
boys – that one or more of them, taking to heart what they learned from
me, and observing the care with which I celebrate Mass, will be inspired
to give his life to God as a priest. In other words, I have the hope that
I will be a father to a vocation. This is by no means a groundless hope.
Most priests were altar boys when they were young. And I know from
personal experience how good it was for my vocation to have frequent,
positive interaction with priests, at an early age as an altar boy…

The tradition of altar boys was also a good thing for boys. Let me tell
you something else about the differences between boys and girls. Girls
tend to be more religious. They step forward more readily to serve the
Church…

So what can we do to get the boys to participate? We give them a little
incentive. One of the things we know about boys is that they are
attracted to things that are “for boys only.” That’s how they are at that
age. They don’t like to be with girls. They prefer to be with each other.
They will hang a sign that says, “No girls allowed” on the ladder of their
tree house. And that is not altogether a bad thing. Of course, we teach
them not to be unkind or unchristian to girls, but their desire to be
among themselves is a normal part of their stage of development. We need
not worry about it. They won’t be like that forever.

But in the meantime, the Church has done a lot of good for boys by taking
advantage of this attraction they have to things that are just for boys.
A boy might sit in Church on a Sunday, and squirm in his seat, and
daydream about riding his bike, and not understand or care too much about
what is going on. But make him part of a group for boys only, create for
him a sense of camaraderie with other boys, put a cassock and surplice on
him, sit him in the front of the Church, and give him a little
responsibility for what happens during Mass, and believe me, you will see
quite a transformation. He may have become an altar boy because it looked
like fun and because it was something only for boys, but by the time he
graduates grammar school he will know more about the Mass than many adult
Catholics, and have a personal sense of reverence for it.

However, since serving will then no longer
be something for boys only, it will lose its attraction for the boys, and
they simply won’t want to do it anymore. This is not idle speculation on
my part. In parish after parish it has happened that when the altar girls
come, the altar boys go. If you have been reading the papers or listening
to the radio, you may have heard about a parish in Manhattan that
introduced altar girls twelve years ago. The media reported with glee
that now girls outnumber boys. A week ago Friday, I spoke to a priest who
was assigned to a parish with both male and female altar servers. When he
arrived, there were three boys and fifteen girls. Then the parish went
back to a policy of altar boys only. Now this priest has fifty altar
boys. I hope that with the addition of girls we won’t lose our altar
boys, and I and a number of other priests have signed a petition to the
Cardinal asking him to look into ways to prevent this from happening, but
I am very much afraid that it will happen all the same…"

ALTAR GIRLS?
Sermon given by Rev. Peter R. Pilsner on the
Fourth Sunday of Easter, April 24, 1994

 

[rlg94086]

teresas1979:

And I thought I was the one with issues with Catholicism!

If you dont like the wonderful progressions the Church has made (the only reason Im considering remaining Catholic) then dont go. But at least try and be christian and stop judging people. You are why young people like myself struggle to stay in Church, you tut tut tut at us for breathing out of place (I’m nearly 26 and can do without it thank you) and then** when you dont make it to Heaven you wont understand its beacuse you’re not following Catholicism as it was meant (Christ’s Church) but how you want it.**

What does Jesus think of your pettiness? If people are trying to lead good lives in His name I’m not sure He cares except to be unimpressed with judgemental attitudes

Kettle: “Hello pot. Boy are you black.”

Charity is required on both sides. Pray for unity.

God Bless,

Robert.

 

[teresas1979]

As I said to the other person who villified me, if you want the Church to have a future dont be small minded. Incidentally, that wasn’t my judgement. Catholics learn to follow the Commandments and not loving your neighbour is one of those things. Not judging, following the Commandments. Sorry if you dont like it

 

[fix]

MarkInOregon:

The peace of Christ be with you,
Mark

I think the point is that many introduce “changes” without permission. They often have an agenda, not always, but often. The Holy Spirit guides the Church, it seems some think the Church has been wrong for centuries and only by going back to a certain point in time can we have an authentic mass. I disagree.

I accept the Latin mass and the new mass. I resent that a few want to foist their agenda on the rest of us. As I said, and you agree, the mass is no one’s private property. This thread was pointing out the abuses that occur many times. The Church teaches that every Catholic has a “right” to licit mass. No one has any right to change it at their whim. That is the point.

 

[katherine2]

"
ALTAR GIRLS?
Sermon given by Rev. Peter R. Pilsner on the
Fourth Sunday of Easter, April 24, 1994

Let’s see. We have on these boards a certain element who are quite strict with any alleged liturgical abuse. Well, here is one. Where the church firmly calls for a Sunday homily that is a reflection on the readings, Fr. Pilsner instead give an inane address about how its okay and even a good thing to think girls are yucky (I guess he is one of “those” types of priests).

So I say we should give all the consideration due to a priest that abuses the Mass. :tsktsk:

what a [south end of a northbound mule].

 

[rlg94086]

teresas1979:

As I said to the other person who villified me, if you want the Church to have a future dont be small minded. Incidentally, that wasn’t my judgement. Catholics learn to follow the Commandments and not loving your neighbour is one of those things. Not judging, following the Commandments. Sorry if you dont like it

Um…vilified? Please read my post again, I would argue that I riduculed you not vilified you. You insinuated that your detractors wouldn’t make it into heaven. Is that or is it not the very definition of judgement? Don’t you find a little irony there?

Anyway, we don’t know each other and you certainly don’t know my views on liturgy. I’ve only been to Mass in one parish in the UK (Wokingham) and it was fairly traditional, so I have no idea what sort of options you have in Sheffield. In the US, we have quite a range. As long as they fit the rubrics of the Church, I have no problem with them. I have been a cantor and sung in choirs, both traditional and modern. They can both be beautiful and uplifting. They can also both be lifeless. The important thing to remember is that the real value of the Mass is the Eucharist.

God Bless,

Robert.

 

[Edwin1961]

I did not vote in the poll because what was listed are actually Distractions and not abuses done during the Mass itself.

 

[MaggieOH]

"There still are altar boys around. But, from what I can see, not that many, certainly not many boys of high school age. What happened? I think it is pretty clear. Older boys are unwilling to take the catcalls from their friends about caring for the candles and linens on Sunday with Suzie Brown…

Feminist and New Age-types will insist that serving at Mass should not be the early stages of some Catholic good old boy network. I can hear the schoolmarmish voices of reproach admonishing that upstanding and “sensitive” young men should learn to rise above their macho derision of “girl’s work,” and be a real man. You know, like Alan Alda…

And I suggest that the feminists have just such a transformation in mind; that the call for altar girls is part of a package being pushed by ideologues within the Church who have no love for the Church and who seek to reshape us to satisfy the likes of Gloria Steinem and Hillary Clinton…

One would think that those updating Catholics who have pushed for decades now for “relevant” and “meaningful” liturgies — everything from folk Masses to puppet Masses to church murals picturing Christ as a Third World guerrilla — would have been willing to find room to “indulge” the cultural identity of the mainstream American male when they considered the question of girls serving Mass. That they bristled at this notion instead suggests a zealotry informed more by feminist ideology than by the best interests of the Church."

catholicexchange.com/vm/index.asp?vm_id=1&art_id=17412

Whilst I agree that there is cause for concern about the feminist agenda, I maintain that my experience here in Australia is different. There is a good ratio between girls and boys who are altar servers, and there are no cat calls or dropping out at the older ages. Perhaps that is the case in the USA but it is not the wide experience elsewhere.

 

[slackernerd]

Forget cell phones ringing. Am I the only one who’s been next to some snot answering it and carrying on a long conversation?