Most Protestants believe in SOLA FIDE but what about........???

[AwGusTeen]

I think you need to consider all of Scripture to see that many who profess Jesus Christ are not actually united to Him, or still remain in the flesh (dead in sins and treaspasses). Do you understand what Jesus meant that the church is a mix or wheat and tares, and sheep and goats? The goats and tares and the bastards in the church (Hebrews 12) have a demonic dead faith until they become sheeps by the will and grace of God. To understand James 2 correctly, you have to understand it in context of the entire Scirptures. There is a remnant chosen by grace throughout redemptive history.
snip…

First, the discussion was concerning what JAMES said… I simply showed that James did not say what the post implied here. (P.s. and neither does Hebrews 12 for that matter). But yes, I do take the entire scripture as context for interpretation. I just don’t agree with yours in this case.

Not all who belonged to the OT Church or NT Church are actually converted and in Christ. snip…

Agreed.

Do you see saving fatih to be a gift from God, or do you see saving faith coming from self?

Clearly, it is only by God’s grace that we can have salvation. However, James destroys the idea of a saving faith thusly: “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only” James 2:24 (KJV)

 

[2nd_Adam]

Dear 2nd Adam -

Thank you for your response. I think it deserves reflection which I will do tomorrow when I have the time. You have obviously given it much thought and I will do likewise.

Blessings
Cinette

Thanks for the kind words. The family of God goes beyond our Christian communities, because there is only one body of Christ where Christ is the head.

 

[2nd_Adam]

First, the discussion was concerning what JAMES said… I simply showed that James did not say what the post implied here. (P.s. and neither does Hebrews 12 for that matter). But yes, I do take the entire scripture as context for interpretation. I just don’t agree with yours in this case.

Agreed.

Clearly, it is only by God’s grace that we can have salvation. However, James destroys the idea of a saving faith thusly: “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only” James 2:24 (KJV)

Have you considered the words of Jesus in regards to being born again? Without a rebirth, we remain children of the darkness and have a dead demonic faith.

 

[AwGusTeen]

-]/-]

Have you considered the words of Jesus in regards to being born again? Without a rebirth, we remain children of the darkness and have a dead demonic faith.

Yes - one must be born of water and the spirit. This is the teaching of the Catholic Church. Again, however, the idea that those who are not reborn somehow “…have a dead demonic faith” is not borne out by your scriptural references. It is this to which I take exception.

 

[2nd_Adam]

-]/-]

Yes - one must be born of water and the spirit. This is the teaching of the Catholic Church. Again, however, the idea that those who are not reborn somehow “…have a dead demonic faith” is not borne out by your scriptural references. It is this to which I take exception.

Before we are born from above, did you know that we were called children of disobdience, children of wrath, children of darkness, and children of the devil?

 

[AwGusTeen]

Before we are born from above, did you know that we were called children of disobdience, children of wrath, children of darkness, and children of the devil?

What is your point here?

 

[2nd_Adam]

What is your point here?

Maybe we need to define what is a dead faith. The demons believe and shudder. What’s the difference with those who possess a dead faith and a demonic faith which the demons believe? There are both dead faiths which does not work to the glory of God.

 

[AwGusTeen]

Maybe we need to define what is a dead faith. The demons believe and shudder. What’s the difference with those who possess a dead faith and a demonic faith which the demons believe? There are both dead faiths which does not work to the glory of God.

The demons believe from experience, while humans have no frame of reference like that. Besides, scripture does not equate the two. Faith without works is dead - not demonic.

 

[2nd_Adam]

The demons believe from experience, while humans have no frame of reference like that. Besides, scripture does not equate the two. Faith without works is dead - not demonic.

Demons are fallen just like us. We both rebell against God whom we know that He exist. Please consider Romans chapter 1 and 2, because it is not that fallen humans do not know God, but rather we run from God because like the fallen angels, we love the darkness and not the light. The demons and those who have not been born from above are in the kingdom of darkness together. If you have a dead faith, then Satan is your father.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. Rom 1

See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him. Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.

Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.1 John 3

 

[tqualey]

Hi, 2nd Adam,

I agree with you! At least on the idea that the personal failing of an indvidual does not nullify any priniciple. All principles must stand or fall on their own weight. An engineer who is careless in his calculations of a bridge to be built will have the bridge fail with the possible loss of human life. This is not an indictment of the physical principles of bridge building. It is an indictment of the careless engineer.

So, let me see if I understand what you are saying here…

I think just because someone is in sin does not nullify sola fide. All Christians sin in this lifetime. And not all who profess Christ are born from above. Jesus clearly teaches that in the church we have a mix of sheep and goats. James also confirms that some who profess faith actually has a dead demonic faith which is not from God. Sola Fide is a doctrine based on the gospel in regards to the doctrine of justification by faith alone. Progressive obedience and personal holiness, and our love for God are evidences of possessing true saving faith. I think you have brought the debate of the truth of sola fide to an emotional non-doctrinal way which is unfair to both Protestants and Catholics alike. If you owe everything to Jesus Christ in what He has done in our behalf, you do need to defend the truth of the gospel of grace which the doctrine of faith alone is at the center of justification by faith alone. Please read both of my signatures on the subject which is by the Pope and a college Professor of this very topic. I can assure you that your Protestant friend do not represent historic Protestants in what he stated. The Apostle Paul addresses your friend’s perspective in the book of Romans and Galatians too.

I do not think this ‘Protestant friend’ represented anyone very well except his oversized ego and undersized sense of respect for other people and maintaining solid relationships.

Now, as I understand SF, the Bible is the ONLY rule of faith. The Bible contains all we need to get to heaven. The Bible is also written in such a way that it is understandable by all who actively seek to read its message of salvation. Finally, anything not contained in the Bible is unessential and possibly a danger to one’s journey towards Christ. Did I miss anything?

As a Catholic, I have problems with this concept of SF and believe it misses many (but, not all) of the important elements we need to have as believers in Christ. As a Catholic, I am compelled to tell you that the Bible (I am guessing you are holding the ‘abridged version’) comes from the Catholic Church (CC) Really. Luther and his Protestant followers and dissenters based all of their work on the work previously examined by the CC. The Canon has been set.

But, before it was set - in fact about 400 years before it was set, the Apostles were preaching and teaching the Words of Christ. About 30 years after the death and resurrection of Jesus, the first words of the New Testament had not even been written. About 100 years after the birth of Christ, the last words of the NT were written. But, even having these words written did not mean that everyday followers of Christ had access to them as an etire set (as we think of the Bible today). The real quesiton is what did the Holy Spirit use to help spread the Word of God throughout the land before there was a Bible? Remember Christ told the Apostles to preach and baptize - not to write.

The answer is Apostolic Tradition.

God bless

 

[2nd_Adam]

Hi, 2nd Adam,

I agree with you! At least on the idea that the personal failing of an indvidual does not nullify any priniciple. All principles must stand or fall on their own weight. An engineer who is careless in his calculations of a bridge to be built will have the bridge fail with the possible loss of human life. This is not an indictment of the physical principles of bridge building. It is an indictment of the careless engineer.

So, let me see if I understand what you are saying here…

I do not think this ‘Protestant friend’ represented anyone very well except his oversized ego and undersized sense of respect for other people and maintaining solid relationships.

Now, as I understand SF, the Bible is the ONLY rule of faith. The Bible contains all we need to get to heaven. The Bible is also written in such a way that it is understandable by all who actively seek to read its message of salvation. Finally, anything not contained in the Bible is unessential and possibly a danger to one’s journey towards Christ. Did I miss anything?

As a Catholic, I have problems with this concept of SF and believe it misses many (but, not all) of the important elements we need to have as believers in Christ. As a Catholic, I am compelled to tell you that the Bible (I am guessing you are holding the ‘abridged version’) comes from the Catholic Church (CC) Really. Luther and his Protestant followers and dissenters based all of their work on the work previously examined by the CC. The Canon has been set.

But, before it was set - in fact about 400 years before it was set, the Apostles were preaching and teaching the Words of Christ. About 30 years after the death and resurrection of Jesus, the first words of the New Testament had not even been written. About 100 years after the birth of Christ, the last words of the NT were written. But, even having these words written did not mean that everyday followers of Christ had access to them as an etire set (as we think of the Bible today). The real quesiton is what did the Holy Spirit use to help spread the Word of God throughout the land before there was a Bible? Remember Christ told the Apostles to preach and baptize - not to write.

The answer is Apostolic Tradition.

God bless

I think you miss the purpose of written revelation from above. Scripture points to Jesus Christ as our source for daily living and eternal life. Catholic doctrine is beneficial to the extent that it points to Jesus Christ for daily living and eternal life.

You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. - Jesus

You might be surprised what Pope Benedict has to say about SF (faith alone). The answer is not Apostolic Tradition, nor Scripture alone… the answer is Jesus Christ as He reveals Himself through the written Word of God.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, 2nd Adam,

Thanks for pointing that out and for the links to Benedict XVI’s comments So, if I understand you correctly, my concept of Sola Fide has really been replaced by the comments of Pope Benedict? Is this correct?

I think you miss the purpose of written revelation from above. Scripture points to Jesus Christ as our source for daily living and eternal life. Catholic doctrine is beneficial to the extent that it points to Jesus Christ for daily living and eternal life.

You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. - Jesus

You might be surprised what Pope Benedict has to say about SF (faith alone). The answer is not Apostolic Tradition, nor Scripture alone… the answer is Jesus Christ as He reveals Himself through the written Word of God.

Actually, I was a little surprised at the context it was placed in. And, yes, the answer is always Jesus Christ and how well we are working with the abundant Grace He gives to us to follow Him more closely.

Here is an excerpt from the Pope’s message:

“…Being just simply means being with Christ and in Christ. And this suffices. Further observances are no longer necessary. For this reason Luther’s phrase: “faith alone” is true, if it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love. Faith is looking at Christ, entrusting oneself to Christ, being united to Christ, conformed to Christ, to his life. And the form, the life of Christ, is love; hence to believe is to conform to Christ and to enter into his love. So it is that in the Letter to the Galatians in which he primarily developed his teaching on justification St Paul speaks of faith that works through love (cf. Gal 5: 14).”

“Paul knows that in the twofold love of God and neighbour the whole of the Law is present and carried out. Thus in communion with Christ, in a faith that creates charity, the entire Law is fulfilled. We become just by entering into communion with Christ who is Love. We shall see the same thing in the Gospel next Sunday, the Solemnity of Christ the King. It is the Gospel of the judge whose sole criterion is love. What he asks is only this: Did you visit me when I was sick? When I was in prison? Did you give me food to eat when I was hungry, did you clothe me when I was naked? And thus justice is decided in charity. Thus, at the end of this Gospel we can almost say: love alone, charity alone. But there is no contradiction between this Gospel and St Paul. It is the same vision, according to which communion with Christ, faith in Christ, creates charity. And charity is the fulfilment of communion with Christ. Thus, we are just by being united with him and in no other way.” (emphasis added)

“At the end, we can only pray the Lord that he help us to believe; really believe. Believing thus becomes life, unity with Christ, the transformation of our life. And thus, transformed by his love, by the love of God and neighbour, we can truly be just in God’s eyes.”

So, tell me, how do we make a pratical application of Faith Alone in Christ when it comes to the difference in beliefs between Catholics and Protestants about the Eucharist? Catholics view the Eucharist as the very heart of their religious belief in Christ. Many Protestants view the Eucharist as a memorial service at best - and, certainly not the heart of their belief system.

God bless

 

[2nd_Adam]

Hi, 2nd Adam,

Thanks for pointing that out and for the links to Benedict XVI’s comments So, if I understand you correctly, my concept of Sola Fide has really been replaced by the comments of Pope Benedict? Is this correct?

Actually, I was a little surprised at the context it was placed in. And, yes, the answer is always Jesus Christ and how well we are working with the abundant Grace He gives to us to follow Him more closely.

Here is an excerpt from the Pope’s message:

“…Being just simply means being with Christ and in Christ. And this suffices. Further observances are no longer necessary. For this reason Luther’s phrase: “faith alone” is true, if it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love. Faith is looking at Christ, entrusting oneself to Christ, being united to Christ, conformed to Christ, to his life. And the form, the life of Christ, is love; hence to believe is to conform to Christ and to enter into his love. So it is that in the Letter to the Galatians in which he primarily developed his teaching on justification St Paul speaks of faith that works through love (cf. Gal 5: 14).”

“Paul knows that in the twofold love of God and neighbour the whole of the Law is present and carried out. Thus in communion with Christ, in a faith that creates charity, the entire Law is fulfilled. We become just by entering into communion with Christ who is Love. We shall see the same thing in the Gospel next Sunday, the Solemnity of Christ the King. It is the Gospel of the judge whose sole criterion is love. What he asks is only this: Did you visit me when I was sick? When I was in prison? Did you give me food to eat when I was hungry, did you clothe me when I was naked? And thus justice is decided in charity. Thus, at the end of this Gospel we can almost say: love alone, charity alone. But there is no contradiction between this Gospel and St Paul. It is the same vision, according to which communion with Christ, faith in Christ, creates charity. And charity is the fulfilment of communion with Christ. Thus, we are just by being united with him and in no other way.” (emphasis added)

“At the end, we can only pray the Lord that he help us to believe; really believe. Believing thus becomes life, unity with Christ, the transformation of our life. And thus, transformed by his love, by the love of God and neighbour, we can truly be just in God’s eyes.”

So, tell me, how do we make a pratical application of Faith Alone in Christ when it comes to the difference in beliefs between Catholics and Protestants about the Eucharist? Catholics view the Eucharist as the very heart of their religious belief in Christ. Many Protestants view the Eucharist as a memorial service at best - and, certainly not the heart of their belief system.

God bless

I think Jesus revealed that we would not be orphans. The power for Christian transformation and Christian living is the Spirit of Christ who is in us (Holy Spirit) who empowers us. I believe Romans 8 is essential.

Romans 8

Life in the Spirit

8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. [1] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you [2] free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, [3] he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

 

[benedictus2]

Fai****th Without Works Is Dead
“The wall is no longer necessary… For this reason Luther’s phrase: “faith alone” is true…” Pope Benedict XVI

I think this is a typical protestant practice of truncating something and completely missing the point.

It is good that you have provided the link but you should have extracted the entire relevant bit.

Here it is from our beloved Pope:

For this reason Luther’s phrase: “faith alone” is true, if it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love. Faith is looking at Christ, entrusting oneself to Christ, being united to Christ, conformed to Christ, to his life. And the form, the life of Christ, is love; hence to believe is to conform to Christ and to enter into his love. So it is that in the Letter to the Galatians in which he primarily developed his teaching on justification St Paul speaks of faith that works through love

But… I don’t believe this is exactly what Luther was trying to propose or else he would not have labeled the Lettter of James as a letter of straw.

 

[2nd_Adam]

I think this is a typical protestant practice of truncating something and completely missing the point.

It is good that you have provided the link but you should have extracted the entire relevant bit.

Here it is from our beloved Pope:

For this reason Luther’s phrase: “faith alone” is true, if it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love. Faith is looking at Christ, entrusting oneself to Christ, being united to Christ, conformed to Christ, to his life. And the form, the life of Christ, is love; hence to believe is to conform to Christ and to enter into his love. So it is that in the Letter to the Galatians in which he primarily developed his teaching on justification St Paul speaks of faith that works through love

But… I don’t believe this is exactly what Luther was trying to propose or else he would not have labeled the Lettter of James as a letter of straw.

I think Pope Benedict’s faith alone with the if qualifier of a faith which manifest with charity and love is the same thing that Luther states with:

“There is no justification without sanctification, no forgiveness without renewal of life, no real faith from which the fruits of new obedience do not grow.”

Martin Luther

We already covered James chapter 2 with the Pope’s faith alone. Please see this thread.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=378445

 

[AwGusTeen]

Demons are fallen just like us. We both rebell against God whom we know that He exist. Please consider Romans chapter 1 and 2, because it is not that fallen humans do not know God, but rather we run from God because like the fallen angels, we love the darkness and not the light. The demons and those who have not been born from above are in the kingdom of darkness together. If you have a dead faith, then Satan is your father. snip…

Look - you started this premise by attempting to define what faith is, and then extrapolated that those with a dead faith have the same faith as demons. Thus, let’s go to the definition of faith from scripture.

Hebrews 11:1 (KJV)
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Demons have no hope. Demons have seen these heavenly things. Both of these are contrary to the scriptural definition of faith. Therefore, they have no faith - dead or otherwise. They KNOW from experience.

 

[benedictus2]

I think Pope Benedict’s faith alone with the if qualifier of a faith which manifest with charity and love is the same thing that Luther states with:

“There is no justification without sanctification, no forgiveness without renewal of life, no real faith from which the fruits of new obedience do not grow.”

Martin Luther

Depends on what Luther meant by justification and sanctification.

What did he mean by new obedience, when he himself was disobedient.

We already covered James chapter 2 with the Pope’s faith alone. Please see this thread.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=378445

Had a quick look at the thread. Could not find the explanation of why if he truly believed works is necessary, he tried to get rid of of the Epistle by James. A quick summary will suffice.

 

[benedictus2]

You might be surprised what Pope Benedict has to say about SF (faith alone). The answer is not Apostolic Tradition, nor Scripture alone… the answer is Jesus Christ as He reveals Himself through the written Word of God.

Very true. Jesus Christ as he reveals Himself through the written word of God. And the Jesus Christ that we find in the Written Word of God (which happens to have been written by the Church that He founded on Peter) was not exactly a SOLA FIDE advocate.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Look - you started this premise by attempting to define what faith is, and then extrapolated that those with a dead faith have the same faith as demons. Thus, let’s go to the definition of faith from scripture.

Hebrews 11:1 (KJV)
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Demons have no hope. Demons have seen these heavenly things. Both of these are contrary to the scriptural definition of faith. Therefore, they have no faith - dead or otherwise. They KNOW from experience.

There is a living faith which saves and transforms a sinner. And there is a dead faith which the person is under the wrath of God. Judas had a dead faith just like the fallen Angels.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Depends on what Luther meant by justification and sanctification.

What did he mean by new obedience, when he himself was disobedient.

Had a quick look at the thread. Could not find the explanation of why if he truly believed works is necessary, he tried to get rid of of the Epistle by James. A quick summary will suffice.

There is no justification without sanctification, no forgiveness without renewal of life, no real faith from which the fruits of new obedience do not grow.”

Martin Luther

To understand Luther’s statement, you have to understand it within Protestant theology of justifiction through imputation of the perfect righteousness of Christ… which is credited to our account through faith alone.