Most Protestants believe in SOLA FIDE but what about........???

[2nd_Adam]

Very true. Jesus Christ as he reveals Himself through the written word of God. And the Jesus Christ that we find in the Written Word of God (which happens to have been written by the Church that He founded on Peter) was not exactly a SOLA FIDE advocate.

I’m sure it’s not wise to play Peter against Paul because Paul wrote 1/2 the NT. If you read the two Epistles of Peter, they do not promote good works for justification. You can interpert Peter alone for baptismal regeneration (it’s a strech).

 

[tqualey]

Hi, 2nd Adam,

Is it just my imagination… or… are you just not answering the questions I am asking, even though you repost my question to your response. This link is about Protestants’ belief in Sola Fide. Your reference to Pope Benedict is appreciated, but, my understanding is that this is not the way most Protestant’s understand SF. Since you are not identifying any particular denomination, I really do not know which way you are coming from? Without a certain amount of cooperation, there can be no dialogue. So, let me ask you again:

Does Pope Benedict’s comments on SF replace the mainstream Protestant view of SF? If so, plese explain. If not, please explain.

I think Jesus revealed that we would not be orphans. The power for Christian transformation and Christian living is the Spirit of Christ who is in us (Holy Spirit) who empowers us. I believe Romans 8 is essential.

Romans 8

Life in the Spirit

8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. [1] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you [2] free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, [3] he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

Personally, I do not see how being or not being an orphan has any relevance to this particular thread. Here are three pratical issues I would appreciate you addressing in a direct manner if possible:

**1.) Christ founded His Church on Peter (and, that would be the Catholic Church) (Matt 16). This is in dispute by Protestants claiming Christ founded it on Himself and Peter was just there with the other Apostles. The Protestant basis for this is SF.

2.) Christ commanded that we eat His Flesh and drink His Blood if we are to have eternal life (John 6). Through Apostolic succeession that has been passedt down through the Catholic Church. This is in dispute by Protestants claiming Christ was using a metaphor that was misunderstood. The Protestant basis for this is SF.

3.) Christ delegated the Power to Forgive Sin to His Apostles (John 20) by having men confess their sins to the Apostles. Through Apostolic succession this has been passed down through the Catholic Church. This is in dispute by Protestants claiming Christ intended this only for the original 12 Apostles and it died with them… The Protestant basis for this is SF. **

Looking forward to hearing from you.

God bless

 

[2nd_Adam]

Hi, 2nd Adam,

Is it just my imagination… or… are you just not answering the questions I am asking, even though you repost my question to your response. This link is about Protestants’ belief in Sola Fide. Your reference to Pope Benedict is appreciated, but, my understanding is that this is not the way most Protestant’s understand SF. Since you are not identifying any particular denomination, I really do not know which way you are coming from? Without a certain amount of cooperation, there can be no dialogue. So, let me ask you again:

Does Pope Benedict’s comments on SF replace the mainstream Protestant view of SF? If so, plese explain. If not, please explain.

Personally, I do not see how being or not being an orphan has any relevance to this particular thread. Here are three pratical issues I would appreciate you addressing in a direct manner if possible:

**1.) Christ founded His Church on Peter (and, that would be the Catholic Church) (Matt 16). This is in dispute by Protestants claiming Christ founded it on Himself and Peter was just there with the other Apostles. The Protestant basis for this is SF. It is true that our understanding of sola fide is found through our mutually exclusive views on authority. **

2.) Christ commanded that we eat His Flesh and drink His Blood if we are to have eternal life (John 6). Through Apostolic succeession that has been passedt down through the Catholic Church. This is in dispute by Protestants claiming Christ was using a metaphor that was misunderstood. The Protestant basis for this is SF. Sure, but I don’t think this is related to sola fide.

3.) Christ delegated the Power to Forgive Sin to His Apostles (John 20) by having men confess their sins to the Apostles. Through Apostolic succession this has been passed down through the Catholic Church. This is in dispute by Protestants claiming Christ intended this only for the original 12 Apostles and it died with them… The Protestant basis for this is SF. How is this related to sola fide?

Looking forward to hearing from you.

God bless

I am a Reformed Christian, and my understanding of sola fide is within Reformed theology. There is much emphasis of Lordship salvation as signs of true saving faith. Here is a link to what I basically believe.

monergism.com/

Since I started a thread on the Pope’s view of Faith Alone, I am able to reconcile his teaching of it with a type of Lordship view. His work is referencing the Protestant Reformation and Martin Luther. So, I understand his teaching of justification by faith alone with the if qualifier within the context of Reformed theology and the 13 Epistles of Paul. It appears his teaching is an outreach for ecumenicism with confessional protestants.

 

[tmac1956]

There is a living faith which saves and transforms a sinner. And there is a dead faith which the person is under the wrath of God. ** Judas had a dead faith just like the fallen Angels**.

As I demonstrated in previous posts, Scripture does not say that there are two kinds of faith - and none of the references you provided state that. This is simply your interpretation and one to which you are entitled. However, just for discussion purposes, let us assume that you are correct.

Under your exegesis we have:
Category #1:
A sinner has transformative salvific “living” faith

Category #2:
Demons (like Judas) have a dead faith – they believe in God but hide from the light.

Category #3:
What of the case of a man who is an atheist from birth… He has no belief in God and therefore no faith in God, so he can’t have a “living” faith. He can’t have a dead faith because he had no faith to begin with.

So, how do you reconcile this outlier in Category #3? Is it possible that the idea of two different faiths is simply fallacious?

 

[tqualey]

Hi, 2nd Adam,

My understanding as to why Protestants do not believe that Christ gave man the delegated Power to forgive sin, is because they have faith to go to God directlly through Christ.

Thanks for the link. I will check it out.

Now, concerning Pope Benedict’s letter, I do not believe the Pope was, in effect, saying everyone is fine they way that they are. I do not believe the Pope was endorsing Protestantism in general or Lutheranism in particular as another form of Catholicism.

Yes, Christ is the answer. And, in all sincerity, I think one must take the answers that Chrsit has given and actually apply them to our lives today in the method He directed. In my previous analogy of the careless engineer who misapplied the proper principles in building the bridge - the bridge failed. Christ gave us specific directions and I am convinced He really does expect us to follow them.

I am a Reformed Christian, and my understanding of sola fide is within Reformed theology. There is much emphasis of Lordship salvation as signs of true saving faith. Here is a link to what I basically believe.

monergism.com/

Since I started a thread on the Pope’s view of Faith Alone, I am able to reconcile his teaching of it with a type of Lordship view. His work is referencing the Protestant Reformation and Martin Luther. So, I understand his teaching of justification by faith alone with the if qualifier within the context of Reformed theology and the 13 Epistles of Paul. It appears his teaching is an outreach for ecumenicism with confessional protestants.

God bless

 

[2nd_Adam]

As I demonstrated in previous posts, Scripture does not say that there are two kinds of faith - and none of the references you provided state that. This is simply your interpretation and one to which you are entitled. However, just for discussion purposes, let us assume that you are correct.

Under your exegesis we have:
Category #1:
A sinner has transformative salvific “living” faith

Category #2:
Demons (like Judas) have a dead faith – they believe in God but hide from the light.

Category #3:
What of the case of a man who is an atheist from birth… He has no belief in God and therefore no faith in God, so he can’t have a “living” faith. He can’t have a dead faith because he had no faith to begin with.

So, how do you reconcile this outlier in Category #3? Is it possible that the idea of two different faiths is simply fallacious? I posit the later.

Sure it does. Jesus teaches that there are sheeps and goats, wheat and tares in the church. Those who are in the visible church profess faith. Even in Hebrews, God disciplines His adopted children and He does not discipline the bastards in the church because they are not his children. However, the adoped chidren and bastards all profess faith. Even 1 John seperates the children of God and the children of the devil within the visible church. We are all born spirituality dead. However, many profess Christ and we know Christ will tell some that I never knew you. The words “I never knew you” can be compared to those God knew (predestination) in contrast. It’s not that God knew them and then later did not know them.

 

[tmac1956]

Sure it does. Jesus teaches that there are sheeps and goats, wheat and tares in the church. Those who are in the visible church profess faith. Even in Hebrews, God disciplines His adopted children and He does not discipline the bastards in the church because they are not his children. However, the adoped chidren and bastards all profess faith. Even 1 John seperates the children of God and the children of the devil within the visible church.

You have not addressed the scenario in Category #3. You are claiming that there are two faiths – “living” faith and “dead” faith. Therefore, how do you handle the athiest who has never had faith? He has neither living or dead faith…

 

[2nd_Adam]

You have not addressed the scenario in Category #3. You are claiming that there are two faiths – “living” faith and “dead” faith. Therefore, how do you handle the athiest who has never had faith? He has neither living or dead faith…

Scripture reveals that some men do not have faith. Scripture reveals that some have a dead faith. However, both groups are still dead in their sins and trespasses, and in enmity with God, and under the wrath of God. They are both in the same group united to Adam and makeup the old humanity. It’s the same with unbelievers who have faith in God in a religion which rejects the Biblical Christ. From my view, Muslims and Hindus have a dead faith which does not come from God.

 

[Nominefili]

We owe Him so much - everything in fact - how can people say that he has paid for our sins and all we need for our salvation is to believe that Jesus is our Lord and Saviour. We need to show Jesus our gratitude through our obediance and that includes our LOVE for Him and for our neighbour. Our whole lives must be dedicated to “repaying” this debt through our behaviour, through good works.

It’s really depressing to read things like this. Do you really think Jesus needs your help? That Him “through whom all things were made” really needs our ‘good works’ for salvation?

Ephesians 2:8-9
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Now I’ll agree that it isn’t just faith; Baptism is necessary for salvation. But to think that you have to ‘work off your debt to Jesus’ to be saved… it’s an impossible task. But it’s human nature. It’s understandable.

As Paul said in 1 Cor. 1, "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written:
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”[c]

Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles…"

The message of the cross is one of justification by grace through faith. You may feel like you owe Jesus, and YOU DO. But working it off to save yourself is essentially saying that you don’t trust Christ to save you, that you need to fill in the gaps for Him because He can’t do all the heavy lifting. Should your life demonstrate works in faith? Absolutely! But it is OUT OF FAITH AND LOVE that we do works, not out of a desire to ‘work off our debt.’ To do so is to take away the power of the cross to save.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

It’s really depressing to read things like this. Do you really think Jesus needs your help? That Him “through whom all things were made” really needs our ‘good works’ for salvation?

I wont comment on whether or not Christ needs our help but I will quote a verse of scripture

Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church Col 1:24

God bless

 

[2nd_Adam]

I wont comment on whether or not Christ needs our help but I will quote a verse of scripture

Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church Col 1:24

God bless

Paul Addresses the Areopagus

22 So Paul, standing in the midst of the Areopagus, said: “Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious. 23 For as I passed along and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription, ‘To the unknown god.’ What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you. The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man, nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything. 26 And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, 27 that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us, 28 for

“‘In him we live and move and have our being’; [3]

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Paul Addresses the Areopagus

22 So Paul, standing in the midst of the Areopagus, said: “Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious. 23 For as I passed along and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription, ‘To the unknown god.’ What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you. The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man, nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything. 26 And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, 27 that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us, 28 for

“‘In him we live and move and have our being’; [3]

And yet Paul tells us that he is completing something that is “lacking” in Christ’s afflictions

God bless

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Nominefili,

When I first read this, I did not take it literally - but, rather, as a figurative expression of our sinfulness before the sight of God - and His Amazing Grace that has truly saved us. We can not ‘work our way to heaven’ - but, the Faith we have received prompts us to help our neighbor.

It’s really depressing to read things like this. Do you really think Jesus needs your help? That Him “through whom all things were made” really needs our ‘good works’ for salvation?

Ephesians 2:8-9
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Now I’ll agree that it isn’t just faith; Baptism is necessary for salvation. But to think that you have to ‘work off your debt to Jesus’ to be saved… it’s an impossible task. But it’s human nature. It’s understandable.

As Paul said in 1 Cor. 1, "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written:
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”[c]

Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles…"

The message of the cross is one of justification by grace through faith. You may feel like you owe Jesus, and YOU DO. But working it off to save yourself is essentially saying that you don’t trust Christ to save you, that you need to fill in the gaps for Him because He can’t do all the heavy lifting. Should your life demonstrate works in faith? Absolutely! But it is OUT OF FAITH AND LOVE that we do works, not out of a desire to ‘work off our debt.’ To do so is to take away the power of the cross to save.

While I can only speak for myself, I am confident no one is preaching a ‘salvation through my own works’.

God bless

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Roman_Catholic,

He certainly does!

And yet Paul tells us that he is completing something that is “lacking” in Christ’s afflictions

God bless

Actually, we may be the only Christ some people ever see. We may be the only Bible some people ever read. Our mission is to carry Christ forward into the hearts and minds of those around us - and to be, as St. Francis says, “…an instrument of Thy peace…”

God bless

 

[tmac1956]

Scripture reveals that some men do not have faith. Scripture reveals that some have a dead faith. However, both groups are still dead in their sins and trespasses, and in enmity with God, and under the wrath of God. They are both in the same group united to Adam and makeup the old humanity . It’s the same with unbelievers who have faith in God in a religion which rejects the Biblical Christ. From my view, Muslims and Hindus have a dead faith which does not come from God.

Ok – so now you are saying that a dead faith is really not faith at all, but simply a condition in which one is “…under the wrath of God.” Fine. But that renders your interpretation of James 2:20 invalid. The dead faith James is speaking of is a faith without works, not a condition without works. There is a clear difference here.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Ok – so now you are saying that a dead faith is really not faith at all, but simply a condition in which one is “…under the wrath of God.” Fine. But that renders your interpretation of James 2:20 invalid. The dead faith James is speaking of is a faith without works, not a condition without works. There is a clear difference here.

The dead faith of James is a demonic faith because it does not have the marks of a new creation in Christ. Have you considered 1 John which is the same thing James is revealing:

1 John 3

3:1 See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him. 2 Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears [1] we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. 3 And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.

4 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s [2] seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

The death faith of James is a demonic faith because it does not have the marks of new creation of Christ. Have you considered 1 John which is the same thing James is revealing:

So when James talks about faith he is talking about “death faith”? Okay, lets put that into the verse and see if it works:

You see that “death faith” was active along with his works, and “death faith” was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by “death faith” alone. And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so “death faith” apart from works is dead. James 2:22-26
*
Death faith* apart from works is dead Can death faith with works be not dead?.. Can “death faith” be active along with works? Can a man be justified by “death faith” and works?..

It doesn’t work 2nd Adam sorry.

God bless

 

[2nd_Adam]

So when James talks about faith he is talking about “death faith”? Okay, lets put that into the verse and see if it works:

You see that “death faith” was active along with his works, and “death faith” was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by “death faith” alone. And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so “death faith” apart from works is dead. James 2:22-26
*
Death faith* apart from works is dead Can death faith with works be not dead?.. Can “death faith” be active along with works? Can a man be justified by “death faith” and works?..

It doesn’t work 2nd Adam sorry.

God bless

That’s why you’re a Catholic and I’m a Reformed catholic. We see things differently. The Catholic view of infant baptismal regeneration drives your understanding of James 2. In my world, regeneration comes before faith in light of John 3.

monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/sproul01.html

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

That’s why you’re a Catholic and I’m a Reformed catholic. We see things differently. The Catholic view of infant baptismal regeneration drives your understanding of James 2.

I am Catholic by the grace of God. You are the one who defined the faith which James was talking about as, “death faith”. I simply put that definition into the verses and showed you that it didn’t work. It doesn’t work, Catholic, Reformed, Jewish, Mormon, Baptized, regenerated, doesn’t matter. It doesn’t work.

God bless you

 

[2nd_Adam]

I am Catholic by the grace of God. You are the one who defined the faith which James was talking about as, “death faith”. I simply put that definition into the verses and showed you that it didn’t work. It doesn’t work, Catholic, Reformed, Jewish, Mormon, Baptized, regenerated, doesn’t matter. It doesn’t work.

God bless you

Of course it does. When you think about it, Catholics, Mormons, and JW’s interpert James 2 in similar fashion to refute the biblical view of salvation defined within the 5 solas. James 2 is describing a demonic faith that does not work. It is parallel with the teaching of Jesus, the author of Hebrews, Paul, John, etc… Just because a sinner is water baptized by a Catholic Priest does not make that person regenerate. Only the Spirit of God gives new life (John 3). Therefore, the Catholic Faith has to try to reconcile the millions of Catholics who are baptized but manifest in a faith that is dead, with no new life.