Most Protestants believe in SOLA FIDE but what about........???

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Of course it does. When you think about it, Catholics, Mormons, and JW’s interpert James 2 in similar fashion to refute the biblical view of salvation defined within the 5 solas.

I’m not refuting the Biblical view of salvation. The “reformed” view maybe but as you can see from putting your definition of faith into the verse from James the Biblical view and the “reformed” view are, not surprisingly" two entirely different things.

*…so “death faith” apart from works is dead. *

As opposed to “death faith” with works being… alive. I mean alive death faith

God bless you

 

[2nd_Adam]

I’m not refuting the Biblical view of salvation. The “reformed” view maybe but as you can see from putting your definition of faith into the verse from James the Biblical view and the “reformed” view are, not surprisingly" two entirely different things.

*…so “death faith” apart from works is dead. *

As opposed to “death faith” with works being… alive. I mean alive death faith

God bless you

I think some of the essential doctrines of the Catholic Faith are not true, leaving you with problems when debating Protestants. But we are not saved from the comming day of wrath by having perfect doctrine. We are saved by the person and work of Christ alone, in spite of our Christian communities. The true church that is united to Christ is truly catholic (universal).

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

I think some of the essential doctrines of the Catholic Faith are not true, leaving you with problems when debating Protestants. But we are not saved from the comming day of wrath by having perfect doctrine. We are saved by the person and work of Christ alone, in spite of our Christian communities. The true church that is united to Christ is truly catholic (universal).

Who is having problems? You are the one who is arguing that James is talking about something else when he writes about faith. You are saying that what James really means is… death faith.

I am saying that James wrote exactly what he meant to say. You ask me what the correlation between faith and works is? I answer:

faith apart from works is dead…

You answer… .Well we’ve seen that.

It is not that I have problems discussing this verse with Protestants. It is that you have problems with what the verse says. The problem is that it does not say what the “reformed” doctrine would tell you it should so James must be saying something else. James must be writing about “death faith” even though when you put “death faith” into the verse the verse ceases to have any meaning. I am saying James means exactly what he wrote. Glory to God.

God bless you

 

[2nd_Adam]

Who is having problems? You are the one who is arguing that James is talking about something else when he writes about faith. You are saying that what James really means is… death faith.

I am saying that James wrote exactly what he meant to say. You ask me what the correlation between faith and works is? I answer:

faith apart from works is dead…

You answer… .Well we’ve seen that.

It is not that I have problems discussing this verse with Protestants. It is that you have problems with what the verse says. The problem is that it does not say what the “reformed” doctrine would tell you it should so James must be saying something else. James must be writing about “death faith” even though when you put “death faith” into the verse the verse ceases to have any meaning. I am saying James means exactly what he wrote. Glory to God.

God bless you

Faith Without Works Is Dead

14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good [2] is that? 17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
**
18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! 20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?** 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Faith Without Works Is Dead

14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good [2] is that? 17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
**
18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! 20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?** 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

2nd Adam:

The dead faith of James is a demonic faith

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has **death faith **but does not have works? Can that death faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also death faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

But someone will say, “You have death faith and I have works.” Show me your death faith apart from your works, and I will show you my death faith by my works. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that death faith apart from works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that death faith was active along with his works, and death faith was completed by his works; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. You see that a person is justified by works and not by death faith alone. And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also **death faith **apart from works is dead.



God bless you

 

[2nd_Adam]

This is one of a series of sermons on James by Geoff Thomas, begun in June 1998

James 2:14-26 FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD

alfredplacechurch.org.uk/Sermons/james14.htm

i ] When James uses the word ‘faith’ here he means an intellectual assent which has no effect upon conduct. Even demons have that sort of faith. But when the apostle Paul uses the word ‘faith’ he is talking about an attitude of the entire man by which his whole life is entrusted to Christ. So, the faith James condemns is not the faith Paul commends. Paul is just as severe as James in denigrating a faith that permits people to continue in sin. Paul’s ‘faith’ is that which receives the Spirit who gives power to men to lead holy lives. James is demeaning a cerebral acknowledgement of faith in God which doesn’t touch one’s daily living…

 

[2nd_Adam]

You have to admit that your understanding of James 2 is really the same as Mormons and JWs.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

You have to admit that your understanding of James 2 is really the same as Mormons and JWs.

I care not what the Mormon or JW understanding of James is. I care what James says:

Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?

Faith apart from works is dead…

God bless

 

[AwGusTeen]

I am Catholic by the grace of God. You are the one who defined the faith which James was talking about as, “death faith”. I simply put that definition into the verses and showed you that it didn’t work. It doesn’t work, Catholic, Reformed, Jewish, Mormon, Baptized, regenerated, doesn’t matter. It doesn’t work.

God bless you

Don’t forget “demonic” dead faith.

 

[AwGusTeen]

I care not what the Mormon or JW understanding of James is. I care what James says:

Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?

Faith apart from works is dead…

God bless

I think by this time it is clear that 2nd Adam must hold to the two faith scenario in order to minimize the damage done to the man made doctrine of Sola Fide by James.

 

[yankee_doodle]

I think Catholics and Protestants need to get medieval & actually fight it out (I mean physically beat the dog poop out of each other, until one side cries uncle).

Oh, better yet, cage matches (I love ultimate fighting … how awesome would it be to flip on the tube & check out religious wars in a cage). Peace & love is boring anyway (and it doesn’t work, the hippies tried it & they barely made it out of the 60’s ).

 

[Traditional_Ang]

I knew a Protestant who used to talk about his Faith all the time and he was fornicating and committing adultary openly! Jesus paid for his sins in advance so he had nothing to worry about!

Surely an intelligent person cannot embrace SOLA FIDE!!!

Cinette

Cinette:

I believe what the Protestant was talking about is an INTELECTUAL ASSENT to Christianity, a “Belief in Christ as Lord and Savior”. This is what the Apostle James referred to when he wrote the following:
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

 *But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.  You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!  Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"—and he was called a friend of God. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.*

**James 2:14-26 ESV
**

---

Linked with 4 other Translations at Bible Gateway.com. I can link others if you need them…

As you can see, this “Faith” is a dead Faith, because it produces no “fruits worthy of repentance” (Luke 3:8 KJV) no fruits of the Spirit (See Galatians 5:16-25 for the “fruits of the flesh” & the fruits of the Spirit").

Links from Bible Gateway.com

Luke 3:1-18
Romans 6:1-14http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke 3:1-18&version=NIV;NLT;ESV;NKJV;KJ21

Galatians 5:16-25
Ephesians 2:8-10http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians 5:16-25&version=NIV;NLT;ESV;NKJV;KJ21

The “Faith” your friend had was that of someone who looks at a bridge, pronounces it safe to cross over, but refuses to crosses over it himself, even when it’s the only way to get to the other side. It’s that of someone who looks at an airplane that’s boarding and extols the plane’s virtues, but then refuses to fly in it in spite of the fact that it’s the only way to get to where he wants to go. and, It’s that of someone who brags about how good a particular orthopedist is, then refuses to allow the orthopedist to treat him even though the treatment would allow him to walk again…

In other words, it’s not faith at all, but some sort of counterfeit that many Protestants, and even some Catholics, have allowed to masquerade as FAITH. If you can understand that Faith isn’t just INTELLECTUAL ASSENT, and that Faith produces deeds and fruits of the Spirit, you’ll be fine.

I think we all need to remember that even our Faith is given to us by the Grace of God, that this is all a Gift of God - This all comes from His Love and Mercy. While we were HIS enemies, Christ Jesus died for us, and that in doing so, He made enemies into adopted Children of God.

I hope this clarifies this issue a bit. Please pray for your Protestant friend.

Your Brother & Servant in Christ, Michael

 

[2nd_Adam]

I think by this time it is clear that 2nd Adam must hold to the two faith scenario in order to minimize the damage done to the man made doctrine of Sola Fide by James.

There is thousands of Catholics or even millions of Catholics that have a James 2 faith. Because the Catholic Faith teaches baptismal regeneration, you cannot make a separation of those who have a mental assent to the gospel, but have not been born from above by the Spirit. When a person is baptized, that person is born from above according to Catholic theology, even though they will manifest a James 2 faith. And those Catholics who are not born from above, will try to produce good works apart from the Spirit, creating artifical plastic fruit of the flesh. Salvation is of the Lord, and by the Spirit of God some sinners are being transformed into the image of Christ. The Catholic Faith is very very close to a faith based on personal good works as the cause of your salvation.

 

[ndismyhome]

For starters I quit reading this discussion after the first page… I admit, I got bored. I just thought I would throw something into the fire:
Be careful when saying Sola Scriptura… this means different things to different Protestant groups, its hard to lump them together.

Also, I believe that a Protestant responce to the work/ faith debate would go something like this: Why do you do good works? Is it not because you have faith in the salvation of Christ that you do them?

 

[tqualey]

Hi, 2nd Adam,

You know, you really do make a lot of assumptions that you can not back up. I think it would be a good idea if you just stuck with one assumption and ran it into the ground so we can clearly see where you are going - instead of this shot gun approach which seems to have you going in circles… So, let’s see what we have here.

There is thousands of Catholics or even millions of Catholics that have a James 2 faith.You have been flip-flopping on this from seveal directions, now. Why not define your terms (“James 2 faith” does not exist anywhere that I can find). Just spell out what you mean and stick with it. Thanks in advance.

Because the Catholic Faith teaches baptismal regeneration, you cannot make a separation of those who have a mental assent to the gospel, but have not been born from above by the Spirit. **You apparently think nothing of minimizing the Power of the Holy Spirit. Just who are you to say that God’s Spirit has not been given to these little ones? Really? Christ’s command is clear to baptize all those in the world - it is truly ‘another gospel’ to start laying out restrictions. **

When a person is baptized, that person is born from above according to Catholic theology, even though they will manifest a James 2 faith. **The basic problem is I have no idea what you are really talking about. Define your terms and just re-write your sentence so that it makes sense without your own jargon. **

And those Catholics who are not born from above, will try to produce good works apart from the Spirit, creating artifical plastic fruit of the flesh. And just what do you use to back up this novel idea? Seriously, you are jumping from one insult to another and failing to clarify anything. You are expected to do better then this. If you are going to criticize, do so in a logical manner with references. No shooting from the hip as we obviously have here. Salvation is of the Lord, and by the Spirit of God some sinners are being transformed into the image of Christ. The Catholic Faith is very very close to a faith based on personal good works as the cause of your salvation. **And your reference for this obvious flippant remark is what? **

God bless

 

[2nd_Adam]

Hi, 2nd Adam,

You know, you really do make a lot of assumptions that you can not back up. I think it would be a good idea if you just stuck with one assumption and ran it into the ground so we can clearly see where you are going - instead of this shot gun approach which seems to have you going in circles… So, let’s see what we have here.

God bless

I guess we are talking right past each other. We sure don’t see things the same way. If you have the time, here is a systematic theology in what I generally believe.

monergism.com/

 

[Traditional_Ang]

There is thousands of Catholics or even millions of Catholics that have a James 2 faith. Because the Catholic Faith teaches baptismal regeneration, you cannot make a separation of those who have a mental assent to the gospel, but have not been born from above by the Spirit. When a person is baptized, that person is born from above according to Catholic theology, even though they will manifest a James 2 faith. And those Catholics who are not born from above, will try to produce good works apart from the Spirit, creating artifical plastic fruit of the flesh. Salvation is of the Lord, and by the Spirit of God some sinners are being transformed into the image of Christ. The Catholic Faith is very very close to a faith based on personal good works as the cause of your salvation.

Adam:

I think you forget that, for over 1,000 years, all there was was the Catholic Church, East and West. and, If you ask an Orthodox, they’ll claim they’re the Catholic Church today, and that the Catholics united with the Pope are the ones in schism. You forget that, for the first 300 years of the Church, you wouldn’t be able to question whether most Catholics were “Reborn from Above” (Actual Greek in John 3), because they were giving their lives for the Faith, from the youngest (a young kid who refused to release the Eucharist to a gang of thugs who beat him to death) to the oldest (a 100+ year-old man was burned at the stake for refusing to renounce Christ and offer a few grains in sacrifice to the emperor). and, In many Countries they still offer the ultimate sacrifice today - From the Martyrs (both Anglican and Catholic) in Uganda to the Underground Church in China to the many Catholics who risk their lives in Islamic Countries (the TAC lost a Bishop in Pakistan in 2003, and both the TAC and Catholic Church lost priests and other volunteers in Nigeria during the past decade).

These people knew they needed Christ - They knew they needed his love and grace.

We’re lucky to live in a country where we have Religious Freedom. Because of that, most people don’t have to risk much or sacrifice much for their faith. Because of that, we have a lot of people who are “Cultural Catholics”, “Weenie Roast Baptists” and “Rock n Roll Christians”. Thanks to that, the Church may have lost its salt - We’ve had Abortion on Demand for 36 years, surveys now say that most college age kids would accept Gay Marriage, even some Pro-Lifers are willing to accept Embryonic Stem-Cell Research, and some states have Medically Assisted Suicide (Euthanasia).

I don’t need to be reminded that, “Judgment begins with the Household of God,” or that the Day is near.

Much of what you referred to was the fruit of bad or no catechesis - No teaching on the things that mattered - Which went on from the Mid-1960’s to the Early 1990’s. Catholics went from a strict regime of instruction (The Baltimore Catechism - I even used it myself once in desperation) to NO Regime of Instruction (The Books I saw in 1983 HAD NO Doctrine - NOTHING - They were worse than “fluff”).

“Baptismal Regeneration” means God puts His brand or mark on us (You’ll see that in Revelation) and plants a seed of new life (Parable of the Sower). But has St. Paul said, someone has to water the seed, someone has to provide instruction & discipleship, and the parents (If the person was baptized as a baby) have to take the child to Mass, participate in the life of the parish/community, pray with the child & teach the child to pray.

I assume you know that, from any Alter Call, fewer than 20% actually make it past a year. Most don’t even find themselves a church community to go to. This was brought to light in a thread here called “Hell’s Best Kept Secret” The original link is dead and can be found using the Wayback Machine - Living Waters.com. It’s a POWERFUL thread, because of the link. Listen to it - It wasn’t preached in many Catholic Churches from 1970-1995 either, and we’re seeing the fruits.

Obviously, people who know they why they need God’s love and mercy will produce “fruits worthy of repentance”, walk in the Spirit producing, not fruits of the flesh, but fruits of the Spirit.

Your Brother & Servant in Christ, Michael

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Perhaps the example I gave did not illustrate what I wanted to say.

SOLA FIDE makes no sense. There are many Protestants who believe that all you need is faith and your actions/good works are irrelevant. In fact they are always attacking us for claiming that we believe in good works whereas we say that our good works are necessary and are as a result of Grace. The person to whom I was referring believed in SOLA FIDE - he was saved, Jesus paid for his sins so he could go ahead because no matter what he was guaranteed his place in Heaven!

I was reflecting on our debt to Jesus for the great gift of his life. We should contemplate that daily. That God should have become man to die for us on the Cross and his suffering and sacrifice is awsome. Eternal life is something we cannot conceive, we cannot imagine.

We have a duty to eleviate the suffering of others - we have a duty to feed the hungry (Mat 25-14-30) etc. To say that all that is required is to believe that Jesus is our Lord and Saviour is being like those Jesus was referring to when he said "Not everyone who says to me “Lord, Lord” will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who “does the will of my father in Heaven” (Mt 7:21).

The more I reflect on Jesus and his teachings the more I realise how important is the role of suffering. Suffering helps us to see things clearly. Without suffering we forget Jesus.

We have a debt to Jesus.

Cinette

If you are a bag which you are told is full of sweets, which do you choose: bag or sweets ? Bag, of course: because by receiving the bag, you also get everything in it too.​

Faith is like the bag: by having saving faith, one gains access to everything contained in faith, just as a valid conclusion of a syllogism in logic is contained in its premises. The bag is the only way to get the sweets - to have them, we must be given the bag alone; then we do have them.

And faith is “alone”, because works are not co-ordinated with it: faith, and not faith joined with works, is what leads to justification. Only after justification - which as St. Paul says is by faith & not by works - & not before justification, nor without it, do our works have any value before God. So the question of the works of a Christian belongs to a later stage; it is irrelevant to the beginnings of the life of grace.

Faith is alone, or it is not faith at all.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Actually, to me, it does make sense; I just choose not to believe in it. By sense, here I am not speaking to the validity of it, but I mean sense in a systematic way. In other words, I can understand, at least in a limited way, why many Protestants believe as they do, even though I don’t believe what they do.

Not to defend Sole Fide, which I believe to be false, but I don’t think it’s as simple as saying all you need is faith and good works are irrelevant. Most of the Protestants I speak with would make a distinction here to say good works are irrelevant for salvation, but they are not irrelevant in terms of living a Christian life on the model given us, even commanded of us, by Jesus. This is something that took me a LONG time to grasp, and I still don’t claim to grasp it in an entirely cogent way. Works seem to me to be important in some way to Protestants or else why would they put such effort into evangelizing, teaching, studying, and social works?

God has prepared good works for his obedient children to walk in; works are to be done by them for many reasons - increase in merit is not at all the only reason possible; important as this for Catholics. Love of God & man, & obedience, & doing as Christ did on earth, are more than sufficient reasons for for Protestants to be zealous for good works: they are trying to glorify Him, not themselves. Why is that so hard to understand ? It’s in the NT, all of it.​

The real mystery for me, speaking as a Catholic, is that we are supposed to know each other (Christians) by our fruits. What then am I supposed to make of it when I see good fruits coming from what is supposed to be the false tree? Some of my Protestant friends are some of the finest, most decent, charitable people I know. While I realize fully that earthly measurements like my assessment aren’t what counts to God in terms of justice and mercy, it is still a struggle for me to figure out what to make of them. All I think I can do is respect them for who they are and acknowledge God gave us all free wills to make our own choices. It’s His job to make 'em, my job to love 'em.

STM we should leave the reading of other men’s hearts to God - we cannot even read our own perfectly.​

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

The problem is that you don’t understand “sola fide.” Sola fide means simply that we are *justified *by faith alone. That then raises the question: what is the role of good works? And different Protestants would give different answers to that (aside from the fact that some don’t believe in sola fide at all). You have apparently encountered what are called “antinomian” Protestants–in my experience Southern Baptists in particular often tend that way, though by no means all Southern Baptists are antinomians. They would say that yes, a believer has free will to sin and could conceivably sin persistently and unrepentantly and still go to heaven.

The more classical Protestant position (also held by many Southern Baptists, so I don’t want to overgeneralize about them) is the Reformed view. In this view we are justified by faith alone, but we are *sanctified *by good works. Both justification and sanctification are the work of God’s sovereign grace. If God justifies us through faith, we can be confident that He is also about the job of sanctifying us through good works, and that He will not stop doing this job!

What this means in practice (a position held by many Protestants who are not Reformed) is that (as others have pointed out) if you have true faith you *will *show that faith by your works. So while works are unnecessary for *justification, *they will always be present in the life of a true believer.

If you think this is complicated, try explaining transubstantiation sometime!

Edwin

An excellent summary, AFAICS ​