Most Spectacular Miracles

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Hi all!

FightingFat, you posted:
I have to echoe stillsmallvoice…I am very sceptical about stuff like this and would love some independantly verifiable evidence of these things or other miracles!
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It’s not that I’m skeptical & whether or not a given miracle can be independently verified or not is irrelevant. While I certainly do believe in miracles, I do not believe that they are, or should be considered as, proofs of faith. Faith is a matter of belief, not proof.

Be well!

ssv 👋
 
While I believe for far different reasons, I think miracles can be a beginning for those who do not believe at all in God or the supernatural.

For the atheist who does not believe in God or an afterlife, evidence of a suprenatural event or phenomenon or a lot of evidence of supernatural evnts could be the bit of evidence that they need to bridge the gap between belief in things only in the realm of science and the concept of a being and spiritual world far greater than us humans.

So while miracles have not have any significance to you, for someone else it could mean the difference between conversion and eternal damnation, not that all atheists are necessarily doomed. As odd as it may seem atheiste can be do the will of God, even though they do not believe He exists. However salvation is far more accessible and I think far more likely in the Church than as a non-believer.

wc
 
Fr Ambrose:
Here is another wonderful account of the Holy Fire in Jerusalem
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Has there ever been a problem with the fires? Or has it always gone smoothly and without any problem?
 
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wcknight:
Most if not all of the items mentioned, have been examined by various folks. The Church is usually pretty skeptical of hoaxes so it does a great job of investigating before verifying or sanctioning any so called miracles.
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I agree, but as a faithfull follower of Christ I have often wanted some great evidence to excite others with. I have started a couple of threads myself on this subject and basically, no one has yet come up with anything on line that one could point to and say look, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
 
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FightingFat:
I agree, but as a faithfull follower of Christ I have often wanted some great evidence to excite others with. I have started a couple of threads myself on this subject and basically, no one has yet come up with anything on line that one could point to and say look, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
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IF you are looking for definitive proof, the items mentioned here so far are all sanctioned by the Church, the incorrupt bodies of the saints, the cloak in Mexico City and the various eucharistic miracles have been examined by the Chruch and outside investigators.

The pigment in the cloak of Juan Diego were analyzed and determined to have characteristics not available until modern times, even though the cloak is over 300 years old. Extreme magnification of the Blessed Mother’s eyes shows a reflection of the saint in minute detail.

If this were a court of law in a murder trial, I would say you have proof beyond a shadow of a doubt. These are items that you can touch (if you could get by the security guards) and examine scientifically. I would guess that efforts are being made to get the DNA signature of the Eucharistic miracles to show that the DNA is identical in all items.

DNA is conclusive evidence for murder and rape trials. A DNA investigation would show that the same blood shows up for miracles that happened hundreds of years apart. AS mentioned by Fr Ambrose, the same blood type, AB is present in all samples, the same DNA would be undeniable proof that the blood is that of the One and Only Jesus Christ.

Taken together just the few miracles mentioned so far allows for no other explanation beyond having come from the Almighty.

As far as personal miracles and revelations goes, I would suggest visiting the sites of various artifacts, shrines and holy places. Thousands of personal revelations are happening all the time, at Lourdes, Fatima, Medjugore. God is there and available for those who seek Him. What does it take for someone to believe ? Would a personal appearance by Jesus Himself be enough ? Mary or one of the saints ? Do you have to be personally present while the Eucharist literally turns into flesh and blood ?

Even if folks were there as an eyewitness, there will still be a few who will claim, it was an illusion or hallucination.

There is a saying, for those who believe no proof is necessary, for those who do not, no amount of evidence is ever enough. That’s so sad.

wc
 
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FightingFat:
I agree, but as a faithfull follower of Christ I have often wanted some great evidence to excite others with. I have started a couple of threads myself on this subject and basically, no one has yet come up with anything on line that one could point to and say look, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
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Well…

This is the body of St Bernadette. Over 130 years after burial.

http://www.unf.edu/classes/saints/images/bernadette-corpse1.jpg

Photographs and reports of an appearance of the Virgin Mary to hundreds of witnesses in Egypt are here:
zeitun-eg.org/zeitoun1.htm

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

A list of medically investigated and approved cures at Lourdes is here…

theworkofgod.org/Aparitns/Lourdes/Lourdes1.htm
 
DNA is conclusive evidence for murder and rape trials. A DNA investigation would show that the same blood shows up for miracles that happened hundreds of years apart. AS mentioned by Fr Ambrose, the same blood type, AB is present in all samples, the same DNA would be undeniable proof that the blood is that of the One and Only Jesus Christ.
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Yeah, that would convince me all right.

I would just LOVE, LOVE, LOVE to believe in a loving personal God. I have prayed to believe in a loving personal God. I don’t mean that I have prayed for a sign from God (though I have done that to; I mean that I have prayed for faith full stop.
I guess the fact that I don’t believe makes it impossible for my prayers to be answered (which frankly, seems a little unfair to me).

So my question is this: Why is God so unwilling to make himself known? :banghead:

All the miracles I have ever read or heard about have these problems with them:
(By the way, sorry if I offend anyone. That isn’t my intention. I can only give my impression)
  1. They are easily explained by natural processes
  2. They are impossible to verify
  3. They don’t really have any clear message. (For instance, the dancing sun in Medju… sorry my spelling’s terrible. I’m not even going to attempt it. But really, what does a bouncing sun mean? It’s hardly unequivocal.)
It wouldn’t really be hard for God to give an unequivical, supernatural, and clear sign. It wouldn’t even be hard for Him to give everyone a sign, but He doesn’t (or can’t). I just wonder why.

p.s. I wasn’t being sarcastic about the DNA thing, that really would be compelling evidence.
 
While I absolutely love hearing about miracles, I don’t think people will convert because of them. I mean as someone posted above, St. Mary appeared above a Coptic Orthodox Church for 3 years straight, but I dont’ see any of you running to convert to the COC, right?

Thousands and thousands of Muslims witnessed Mary’s apparition in Zeitoun, and granted some did convert, but the majority did not, and remained Muslim.

I once posted a link on another forum regarding the Holy Fire, but the Protestants on the board all assumed it was not a miracle from Christ.

God Bless,
Elizabeth
 
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Everstruggling:
All the miracles I have ever read or heard about have these problems with them:
(By the way, sorry if I offend anyone. That isn’t my intention. I can only give my impression)
  1. They are easily explained by natural processes
  2. They are impossible to verify
  3. They don’t really have any clear message. .
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Er.

Excuse me.

You have just, (in the post above yours,) been presented with three sets of quite well verified miracles.

You haven’t addressed them - or said why they are deficient. Yet you ask for more.

Do you see a pattern in this? Perhaps a reason why even miracles don’t convince the stony-hearted?
 
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Axion:
You have just, (in the post above yours,) been presented with three sets of quite well verified miracles.

You haven’t addressed them - or said why they are deficient. Yet you ask for more.
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Okay, fair point.

I’ll point out my problems with them in order.
  1. I have an anthropology degree, and I have seen many, many wacky cases of preservation documented. I don’t have the documentation right at hand unfortunately, but they include decidely unsaintly people being incredibly preserved. I don’t expect anyone to believe me without proof, all I’m saying is that I have seen enough weird cases to convince myself that it can happen naturally.
  2. People see things that aren’t there all the time. I’ve seen faces in rock piles, trees, clouds, and ink blots. I have no doubt that lights appeared, but without reading the description I couldn’t see the shape that was apparently visible in many of those photographs. Some did look like what I thought the virgin mary’s outline would look like, but people are trained to see patterns like that.
  3. Medical miracles over a hunderd years old are just hard to buy because, let’s face it, 19th century medicine sucked. Tests for veracity back then were just nothing like they are today. It would have been much easier to fake doctors out then than it is now. Also, people of all faiths, believers or not, have had unexplained recoveries. We don’t really have the body completely figured out yet.
All of these could be miracles; I’m not saying they aren’t. I’m just explaining why I am skeptical.

The other posters are probably right when they say that miracles don’t lead to faith, or that faith is not built on miracles alone. To bad, it would be nice if it were that easy.

Everstruggling
 
  1. People see things that aren’t there all the time. I’ve seen faces in rock piles, trees, clouds, and ink blots. I have no doubt that lights appeared, but without reading the description I couldn’t see the shape that was apparently visible in many of those photographs. Some did look like what I thought the virgin mary’s outline would look like, but people are trained to see patterns like that.
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I don’t know how much you read regarding the website on the zeitoun apparition, so there were a few things I wanted to point out. This miracle occured on a nightly basis starting on April 2nd 1968 to some time in 1971, (I don’t remember the date off hand). Now that is three years. Keep in mind that this occured in a predominately Muslim country. So, needless to say officials did all they could to discount and disprove this miracle. And they could not do so because it was truly a miracle. So, I would like to think that if this miracle were a hoax, a group that is generally anti-Christian and known for persecuting Christians in that country would be able to figure it out after 3 years of nightly apparitions. Furthermore, on some of these nights St. Mary was seen waving or bowing, and with doves flying above her head. So if this were some projected image, it would have to be pretty high tech to have an “animated” image as well. On top of all this, there are all sorts of healing stories that were documented as occured at this time in Zeitoun.

God Bless,
Elizabeth
 
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Everstruggling:
Yeah, that would convince me all right.

I would just LOVE, LOVE, LOVE to believe in a loving personal God. I have prayed to believe in a loving personal God. I don’t mean that I have prayed for a sign from God (though I have done that to; I mean that I have prayed for faith full stop.
I guess the fact that I don’t believe makes it impossible for my prayers to be answered (which frankly, seems a little unfair to me).

So my question is this: Why is God so unwilling to make himself known? :banghead:

All the miracles I have ever read or heard about have these problems with them:
(By the way, sorry if I offend anyone. That isn’t my intention. I can only give my impression)
  1. They are easily explained by natural processes
  2. They are impossible to verify
  3. They don’t really have any clear message. (For instance, the dancing sun in Medju… sorry my spelling’s terrible. I’m not even going to attempt it. But really, what does a bouncing sun mean? It’s hardly unequivocal.)
It wouldn’t really be hard for God to give an unequivical, supernatural, and clear sign. It wouldn’t even be hard for Him to give everyone a sign, but He doesn’t (or can’t). I just wonder why.

p.s. I wasn’t being sarcastic about the DNA thing, that really would be compelling evidence.
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That’s just it, God IS willing to show everyone that He exists, that’s why these miraculous events happen fairly frequently. IF you visit Paris, the body of St Catherine is available for viewing, and just an hour or two away is the body of St. Bernadette in Nevers, France.

One of the promises of Medjugore is that several miraculous events will be available world wide (probably through satellite TV.)

BUT if you attitude is forever tainted by skepticism, you will never be open to the Truth. You have to ask yourself, at what point and with what evidence are you willing to accept the truth ? IF the answer is that there is no amount of physical evidence or scientifically examined proof, then you will never find the truth.

Even IF a third party scientist examines the evidence, will you accept their testimony on it ? One can always say it was a hoax and the so called scientist was paid off by the Church. Do you yourself have to make the scientific evaluation ?

Odds are, unless you have the credentials of a world renown scientist, most folks would not have access to these priceless treasures.

Contrary to what you may think, God does answer prayers of atheists. IF you pray for a personal revelation at one of these shrines, God will respond. Challenge God for a reply in prayer, and He will answer. IF He does not, you now have an excuse for not believing. But be honest with yourself, doesn’t the many miracles that God has already revealed to us have any weight in showing he does in fact exists ?

Is it likely that hundreds of folks if not thousands, who have claimed to have experienced miracles, are all lying ?

Personally, I have never heard of any unusal long term preservations other than the bodies of these saints. Dead bodies just don’t happen to smell like flowers after many years, that is a known fact. Ask any forensic scientist, and they will tell you it is absolultely impossible to preserve a dead body for more than a few days. Outside of a total deep freeze, decay sets in almost immediately.

At Emittsburg MD, and a replica of the Lourdes Shrine, a lady on impulse dipped her HIV positive child in the waters of a pond there, found out a couple weeks later that her baby was miraculously cured. That was her personal revelation, she was non-Catholic and subsequently converted.

It doesn’t take that much of a leap (in fact I find it no leap whatsoever), if you go and experience first hand, these miracles that are well over a hundred years old. IF it’s irrefutable evidence you need, here it is. It’s more unreasonable to deny it than it is to accept it.

wc
 
My vote for the “most spectacular miracle”:

5In their fright the women bowed down with their faces to the ground, but the men said to them, “Why do you look for the living among the dead? 6He is not here; he has risen! Remember how he told you, while he was still with you in Galilee: 7‘The Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, be crucified and on the third day be raised again.’ ” 8Then they remembered his words.

This miracle is far more spectacular to me because of its consequences. Furthermore,
  1. It is verified by its existence in the Bible.
  2. It has a clear message.
  3. It cannot be explained by natural processes.
 
It’s been a while, but a few more actual sites you can see on a pilgrimage or tour.

In Italy is the incorrupt body of St. Rita of Cascia. She died almost 500 years ago ! On occasion eye witnesses have seen the body float to the top of the glass encasement, and others have seen her eyes open (sounds a bit creepy to me). Also on some occasions the sweet scent of flowers fills the room.

20 or 30 years prior to St. Rita’s time, Cascia was also the site of a Eucharistic miracle. Those artifacts can be seen on display there as well.

Also in Europe, sits the incorrupt body of St Catherine of Bologna (and this is no baloney ! not to be confused with St. Catherine of Siena in Paris), St, Catherine, like St Rita, also died almost 500 years ago. A few days after her burial, one of her sisters was told by her apparition to have her her body dug up and seated in the chapel, where it remains today perfectly in place. Her skin has darkened over the centuries, but otherwise is intact.

Someone mentioned earlier that there have been other examples of well perserved bodies from their archaeology classes. So far the ones they usually show on the History or Discovery channel are not so incorrupt as any of the saints mentioned here. There have been finds of well preserved remains but these are usually dried out shells or mummified or frozen.

The saints here were not put in deep freeze of keep in unusually dry conditions or whatever. Plus (except for St Rita who has developed a 500 year old tan) most look as if they are just asleep.

Just the fact that their bodies have been perfectly preserved would be miraculous by itself, but often pilgrims to these saints have beneiftted from some miraculous cures. Lourdes has 56 official well documented cures, and probably hundreds more undocumented.

Some of us will never experience a miracle, and that’s okay, our faith does not need that kind of reinforcement. But others need or require some sort of proof that God exists or the hereafter exists.

Yet when proof is presented right before your eyes, even then you can not accept it. It’s okay to be skeptical. There are charlatans, and hoaxes almost all the time. History is filled with con artists and deceivers.

But just ask yourself, what would it take for God to make Himself known to you ? IF He appeared to you today, would you ask to touch His wounds and put your hand in His side. AND even if you did, by the next morning would you think it was all just a dream ? and how would you convince your atheist friends that such a thing happened ?

wc
 
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RonWI:
My vote for the “most spectacular miracle”:

5In their fright the women bowed down with their faces to the ground, but the men said to them, “Why do you look for the living among the dead? 6He is not here; he has risen! Remember how he told you, while he was still with you in Galilee: 7‘The Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, be crucified and on the third day be raised again.’ ” 8Then they remembered his words.

This miracle is far more spectacular to me because of its consequences. Furthermore,
  1. It is verified by its existence in the Bible.
  2. It has a clear message.
  3. It cannot be explained by natural processes.
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I agree Ron that is the most spectacular miracle, BUT our atheist friends would want to have more proof other than the Bible and our say so.

wc
 
There was an article recently about a miracle attributed to the intercession of Bl. Frederick Janssoone:

pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/trib/pittsburgh/s_330682.html

The “Miracle of the Sun” is simply amazing:

fatima.org/essentials/facts/miracle.asp

I know that my uncle’s 20/20 vision is a miracle! He was “jacking up the car” as a teenager and was struck in the eye by a projectile from the jack. His cornea was so damaged that doctors told him he would likely be blind in that eye. They said he could expect, at best, low vision (legal blindness). My grandmother had holy water from Lourdes and would soak the bandages over his eye with it. To the amazement of his doctors, his eye eventually healed completely- no blindness, no scarring- perfect vision!
 
Everstruggling,

You mentioned you would love to see DNA evidence. Have you heard about the miracle of Lanciano Italy? A poster posted a link to Eucharist miracles and this was included in it:

therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html
zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=70440

They are both fairly short articles I would love to hear what you think about this case. The most fascinating part is its blood type is the same as the blood on the Shroud of Turin.
 
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HpyCatholic:
Everstruggling,

You mentioned you would love to see DNA evidence. Have you heard about the miracle of Lanciano Italy? A poster posted a link to Eucharist miracles and this was included in it:

therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html
zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=70440

They are both fairly short articles I would love to hear what you think about this case. The most fascinating part is its blood type is the same as the blood on the Shroud of Turin.
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Actually I have read about Lanciano miracle in the same book, a guide to Pilgrim sites in Western Europe. There was at least several other Eucharistic miracles mentioned also and ALL had the same AB blood type.

I had not heard that the blood on the Shroud of Turin had the same blood type as well. BUT if the DNA all matched, it would prove that the shroud was authentic. There has been much controversy as to its actual age and origins.

There was one where blood dripped onto the ‘corporeal’, a cloth covering the altar, another where 11 or 12 images of Christ’s face appeared on the altar cloth.

I also seem to remember there being a Eucharistic miracle in Japan (Akita) where the host turned into a beating human heart (which stopped shortly afterwards).

I would guess someone would want to do some DNA comparisons.
 
I might not be responding in the spirit for which this thread was created, however…

I believe the most spectacular miracle is what we all witness (but obviously we take for granted) every Mass that we attend. Two miracles in fact, simultaneously.

First, before our very eyes, we witness the trans-substantiation of bread and wine into the body, blood, soul and divinity of our Lord, Jesus Christ.

Secondly, this trans-substantiation occurs when the same, ‘once and for all’ sacrafice of Jesus Christ on the Cross of Calvary, is re-presented (not re-created), transcending all time.

Let it be so, Hallelujah, Hallelujah!!!

Jay in Kansas

For God, all things are equally easy!
 
Jay,

That is a miracle that we all experience every week and every day if we want to. It is to me more valuable that all these other signs, as it makes it possible for me to have eternal life as Jesus promised.

But for the folks who do not believe as you or I, I hope that maybe if they go to see these other more tangible miracles, they too might experience the miracle of the mass as we do.

Christ’s Peace.
 
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