Mother Mary. Why would take your eyes off Jesus and focus on her?

[steve-b]

Jesusislord:

Hello everyone, My name is Alex. I am here to debate on why Mother mary is so special. I cannot find a live chat to speak to Catholics anywhere on the internet. I am Christian. To throw these things out here: Yes, mother Mary conceived Jesus our lord savior for 9 months and during this she was made clean. Yes respect, but why so much? When you ask for forgiveness from Jesus, your slate is completely wiped clean

1 John 1:9 “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”

I see you devote an entire month for such Mary. But Mary committed sin in her life. Yes, during the time she was conceived she was made clean, but you and I are cleaned when you ask forgiveness from Jesus. She is the same as one of us, Sin is sin regardless (James 2:10). So why not devote an entire month for John the baptist? He was an outstanding obedient person, even a cousin of Jesus. Yet of course he sinned as well.

Mary had no part in the presence of Jesus. She is not Jesus’s true mother. (Luke 8:21) He replied, “My mother and brothers are those who hear God’s word and put it into practice.” I feel how you focus so much on Mary is such a distraction off the entire picture, that should be focused on Jesus. For our time is short, why waste any of it on mother Mary?

I hope you open this link. It covers all your questions in 11 minutes

That said it seems the OP has left the house.

 

[Melissa]

It is impossible to discuss the Blessed Virgin Mary without attention on her Son. Scripture itself tells us to honor her “behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed”.

Let us start with the quotes that I call the “bookends” of Mary’s quoted words in Scripture. At the beginning, with the Annunciation, “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. Let it be done to me according to your word.” The last quote is one which we can take as advice for our own lives. “Do whatever He tells you.”

The titles which have been given to the Blessed Virgin Mary are not about her, but about her Son. Every time we look at her, she points to her Son.

Interestingly, I’m currently in a Bible study at my parish which is focused on the Bible and the Blessed Virgin Mary (for anyone who has a registration with Formed, you can find it on that site, just as an aside). We’ve just finished the fifth lesson, and one of the items that I learned (so far) that struck me as interesting … in the Wedding at Cana, the literally translated words “what to me and you” from Jesus’s response to His mother was a common figure of speech (anyone who has ever attempted translations will tell you how hard it is to accurately convey figures of speech from one language to another) which can, amongst other things, show the consent of one party to another. And with that understanding, the next events in the narrative make sense.

On another point, I am, myself, a convert to the Catholic Faith. I did not find the Marian teachings to be an obstacle to my entry, and I am now coming near to 20 years since becoming Catholic. It honestly boggles my mind why people are so focused on tearing down the Blessed Virgin Mary, accusing her of being a sinner “like everyone else” without any evidence. It strikes me as a sort of pride, in attempting to minimize the virtue of another it is perhaps a way of elevating oneself (i.e., supposing that one is “just as good as” Mary is).

 

[Francis]

Well satan is full of pride ,Jesus would love to see his beloved Mother Mary, crush his head.what a humiliation would Lucifer feel ,to be defeated by a mere women (since he doesn’t like her as the Queen of Heaven) human creature,since sin came through Eve a women and God ordained a women Mother Mary an perfect instrument, FULL OF GRACE to bring salvation through Jesus.and crush satan under her feet.

Genesis 3:15 I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

 

[vsedriver]

She is not Jesus’s true mother. (Luke 8:21) He replied, “My mother and brothers are those who hear God’s word and put it into practice.”

She is Jesus’s biological mother. Jesus carries Mary’s DNA. How do we know this? Because Scripture tells us that the she ‘conceived’. A woman can’t conceive unless one of her eggs is fertilized. Just placing a fertilized egg into a woman is not conception. That is just being pregnant. But the Angel Gabriel clearly tells her that she will ‘conceive’.

And who more than Mary, did the will of God and put it into practice?

 

[De_Maria]

Let’s take a walk through Scripture:

Scripture says that God’s will should be done on earth as it is in heaven.
And God wills that the Angels praise Mary:

Luke 1:26-28
King James Version (KJV)
26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, 27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. 28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

Let’s break this down:
ANGEL GABRIEL

1. an angel is a messenger of God. That is what the word, angel, means.
2. this angel, Gabriel, is one of the four angels that stands before the throne of God.
   WAS SENT FROM GOD
3. God sent this angel to Mary.
4. Since this angel is a messenger of God’s, God sent Him to deliver a message.
5. Therefore, the angel was not speaking on his own, but was communicating God’s message to Mary.
6. If we skip down to verse 28, we see that this was a message of praise (i.e. blessed art thou).
7. Therefore God praised Mary through His Angel.
   That is great praise indeed. Do you know of any man whose praise is worth more than God’s? In other words, what do you value more highly, the praise of man or the praise of God?

So, when do you praise Mary in accordance to God’s wishes?

But, there’s more. God sent the Angel to do His Will. What is His Will. Obviously, God sent the Angel to deliver a message of praise. Therefore it is God’s will that the Angels praise Mary.

And there’s yet more. Because the Holy Spirit inspired a holy woman to exclaim, ""Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! "
still in:

Luke 1:41-45
King James Version (KJV)
41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: 42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

Should we break this down?

1. The Holy Spirit is God the Third Person of the Holy Trinity.
2. Therefore, God inspired Elisabeth to praise Mary.
3. This praise is inscribed in the Word of God for all generations.
4. Since Elisabeth is a member of the human race, then it is safe to conclude that God wills that men praise Mary.
5. And we find, again, that God praised Mary through His Saint. Saint Elisabeth praised Mary when she was inspired by the Holy Spirit to do so. That means that it is the Holy Spirit’s praise which she passed on. That is why Scripture is called the Word of God. Because it is inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Need we say more?

 

[Mark121359]

I think this is a case of the OP coming on here to stir the pot if you will. But instead, what he did was stir up a hornets nest attacking Our Lady like that. To all those who came to her defense…God bless you, and well done!!!

 

[jhall8]

What a perfect word to describe Kei’s posts! I agree 100%…blockbuster!

 

[Cathoholic]

JesusIsLord:

Mary was a human right? Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
For you say she was made clean when she conceived Jesus, but as I stated before all our slates our wiped clean when we are forgiven.

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JesusIsLord. Why are you insisting Jesus (who is truly God AND truly man) is a sinner??

God bless.

Cathoholic

PS ?? Where in Catholic teaching, does it teach the Blesses Virgin Mary was . . .
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. . . made clean when she conceived Jesus?

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The Blessed Virgin Mary was Immaculate from the time She was conceived.

 

[Maximilian75]

Everyone, i think the OP has left the building, but still- good job!

 

[Cathoholic]

Everyone, i think the OP has left the building, but still- good job!

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Thanks for posting this info. Maximilian75.

I saw JesusIsLord’s first couple of posts and I impetously engaged his (her?) ideas without reading the whole thread.

I’ll be watching though from time to time and I hope we can continue this discussion JesusIsLord.

 

[jlhargus]

You’re completely ignoring my point. Mary was a human, therefore she sinned. Otherwise you’re completely ignoring Romans

Jesus was human he had no sin, babies are human they have no personal sins. That being the case there are millions of human exceptions to Romans.

 

[Cathoholic]

Not necessarily for Jesusislord (because as has been suggested) . . . “i think the OP has left the building” . . . .

. . . . But I will post this link for lurkers interested in reconciling Romans 3:23 with the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception.

Reconciling the Immaculate Conception to Scripture Apologetics

So, my question is, how would you reconcile Scripture verses like “All have sinned” and “There is none righteous, no, not one” to the Immaculate Conception. . Good question Brittany. St. Paul says ALL have sinned! . ROMANS 3:23 . . . all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God . . . . The Biblical Greek (“Koine Greek”) word for “all” can have different definitions/meanings. “All” may mean “All” in a collective, approximative, or distributive sense. . Collective sense of…

 

[Cathoholic]

LUKE 1:26-38 26 In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, 27 to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. 28 And he came to her and said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!” 29 But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and considered in her mind what sort of greeting this might be. 30 And the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. 32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there will be no end.” 34 And Mary said to the angel, “How shall this be, since I have no husband?” 35 And the angel said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God. 36 And behold, your kinswoman Elizabeth in her old age has also conceived a son; and this is the sixth month with her who was called barren. 37 For with God nothing will be impossible.” 38 And Mary said, “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her.

I just want to deal with some of the errors propagated from Jesusislord’s original post.
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It seems JesusIsLord did not follow up on his post so we never really got into full dialogue and I don’t want “lurkers” imbibing any of these partial truths or falsehoods.

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Hello everyone, My name is Alex. I am here to debate on why Mother mary (sic) is so special.

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The title of Alex’s thread was: Mother Mary. Why would take your eyes off Jesus and focus on her?

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You could ask the same thing about Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John. St. Paul and others too.

Why take your eyes off Jesus to read Matthew?

The question (wrongly) assumes hearing what Jesus says in word or in deed (or in reading), is taking our “eyes off Jesus”.

(This is likely because Alex has a whittled-down view of Jesus and cannot see Jesus working in and through His creation.)

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Alex went on . . . .

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I am Christian. To throw these things out here: Yes, mother Mary conceived Jesus our lord savior for 9 months and during this she was made clean. Yes respect, but why so much?

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Alex (or the lurkers who read in Alex’s place). Think about it.

Heaven came to Mary.

Heaven, through the Archangel, tells us . . . . Mary’s title . . . “Full of Grace”.

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LUKE 1:28 28 And he came to her and said, “Hail, FULL OF GRACE, the Lord is with you!”

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Notice St. Gabriel the Archangel doesn’t say, “Hail Mary!”

That would have been fine too.

But St. Gabriel doesn’t do that. St. Gabriel addresses Mary by Her title—“Full of Grace”

(“You who have been AND are, FULL of grace”).

The Blessed Virgin . . who had free will . . . consented to be the Mother of God.

Mary said, “Yes.”

Mary said, “Be it done unto me according to THY will!”

 

[Cathoholic]

Mary said, “Be it done unto me according to THY will!”

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Mary was not forced to say “yes”.

And if Mary said “no”, there is no guarantee that God would not destroy the rest of humanity.

Just like there was no guarantee that God would not destroy His “Chosen People”—see Exodus 32:9-10 had Moses not freely interceded (with God’s grace of course—grace which does NOT hinder our free will).

Jesus took His human nature from His spotless “Full of Grace” creation, Mary.

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GALATIANS 4:4 (KJV) But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, MADE OF A WOMAN, made under the law,

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An acceptable alternative is “born of a woman”. I would assert it means BOTH “made” and “born” based upon Tradition.

Catholics assert the same doctrine at Mass each Sunday:

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. . . . I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God,
Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven,
At the words that follow, up to and including ‘and became man’,
(all bow) and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and became man. . .

Alex . . . .

I see you devote an entire month for such Mary. But Mary committed sin in her life.

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Name ONE sin Alex.

The Blessed Virgin Mary was “FULL of grace”.

Name one sin Alex.

Alex:

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She is the same as one of us

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WHERE are you getting this Alex?

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LUKE 1:41-48 41 And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit 42 and she exclaimed with a loud cry, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! 43 And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 For behold, when the voice of your greeting came to my ears, the babe in my womb leaped for joy. 45 And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfilment of what was spoken to her from the Lord.” 46 And Mary said, "My soul magnifies the Lord, 47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, 48 for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden. For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed . . .

.

Alex thinks he is “the same” as the Blessed Virgin Mary presumably concerning “blessing”.

That Alex thinks this way, can only lead to one of two things . . . .

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NOT LUKE 1:48b (but a phantom verse) 48 For behold, henceforth all generations will call me, Alex, blessed . . .

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Or . . .

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NOT LUKE 1:48b (but another Alex phantom verse) 48 For behold, henceforth all generations WON’T call me, Mary, blessed because after all, Mary is “the same as the rest of us” . . .

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Alex’s invented personal tradition of men that makes void the Word of God . . .

 

[Cathoholic]

Alex:

Mary had no part in the presence of Jesus.

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This above from Alex of course is utter nonsense.

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LUKE 1:30b-31, 35 30 . . . Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. . . . 35 And the angel said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you;

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NOT LUKE 1:35 (but an Alex phantom verse) 35 And the angel said to her, "The Holy Spirit will NOT come upon you, because you “had no part in the presence of Jesus” and the power of the Most High will NOT overshadow you, because you had no part in the presence of Jesus

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Alex goes on . . . .

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When you ask for forgiveness from Jesus, your slate is completely wiped clean
1 John 1:9 “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”

Alex interiorly CHANGES the verse to mean . . .

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NOT 1 John 1:9 - “If we ONLY confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”

Alex ignores OTHER admonitions in the Bible. Like HOW you “confess your sins”.

You confess them to God, then you confess your sins to “one another” in the context of the presbyteroi (that’d be “the Priests”).

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JAMES 5:14-16 14 Is any among you sick? Let him call for THE ELDERS of the church, (the Priests of the Church) and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; 15 and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16 Therefore CONFESS YOUR SINS TO ONE ANOTHER, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.

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Alex also ignores the parts of the SAME letter of John (which he quotes) that talks about the NECESSITY to “WALK” in the light (not just “confess”).

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1st JOHN 1:6-7, 2:3 6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not live according to the truth; 7 but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. . . . 3 And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

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And St. John is talking not to the UNSAVED, but to the “anointed”.
St. John is talking to people who are saved.

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1st JOHN 2:20 20 But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all know. 21 I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and know that no lie is of the truth.

So at least in principle, a murderer who confesses his sins (say to a court of law), is cleansed from all unrighteousness in “Alexworld” because after all . . .he “confessed his sins”.
(He didn’t bother confessing his sins to God, or to the presbyteroi (the priests).

This guy in the hypothetical example just confessed to a jury.

But in “Alexworld”, at least in principle, he is saved anyway.

 

[po18guy]

It kills me to see those who absolutely trust the bible, but cannot trust the council of Bishops and Pope who handed that bible to them. Disobedience to the Church is obedience to self, or worse.

“Bible alone” so clearly places the ego in charge of revealed truth, that arrogance soon follows. Look at the pattern set in the Lord’s temptation: First, the devil asks “If you are the son of God…” Matthew 4:3-6, then look at the bystanders words at the crucifixion: “If you are the Son of God,…” Matthew 27:40. The devil’s temptation echoed exactly. The virus of ego begets ego.

It is not sola scriptura, it is sola ego.

 

[adf417]

It kills me to see those who absolutely trust the bible, but cannot trust the council of Bishops and Pope who handed that bible to them. Disobedience to the Church is obedience to self, or worse.

“Bible alone” so clearly places the ego in charge of revealed truth, that arrogance soon follows. Look at the pattern set in the Lord’s temptation: First, the devil asks “If you are the son of God…” Matthew 4:3-6, then look at the bystanders words at the crucifixion: “If you are the Son of God,…” Matthew 27:40. The devil’s temptation echoed exactly. The virus of ego begets ego.

It is not sola scriptura, it is sola ego.

Yes indeed! And we can see this pattern of “ego being in charge” dating bact to Adam and Eve “eating from the tree of knowledge” aginst the will of God. This ego, po18guy, is indeed “the forbidden fruit” written about in Gen 2.

Peace!!!

 

[newcalling]

It seems several of his/her responses were flagged, and (s)he didn’t post again afterwards. It’s a shame, because you all were doing an excellent job, and I thought most of the responses were loving and charitable. Oh well, the thread is here, and it serves perhaps to strengthen the faith of the rest of us and answer questions for others who may come here. Again, those were some awesome responses, and I hope that whatever of them were seen by the thread originator helped him/her see things in a new way.

 

[Cathoholic]

po18guy:

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First, the devil asks “If you are the son of God…” Matthew 4:3-6, then look at the bystanders words at the crucifixion: “If you are the Son of God,…” Matthew 27:40. The devil’s temptation echoed exactly. The virus of ego begets ego.

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Wow!

Thanks for sharing this insight po18guy!

I’m going to “swipe” that one in a conversation if you don’t mind (if I recall it when I do, yes I will credit you)

 

[dann]

Thanks that is interesting.

The arguments are always the same.
For each belief system. Each Denominations

Its like turning on a radio
that is not plugged in.
and don’t know that is the reason it does not function.
So we can make up our own reason!