Mother Mary

[Bill_Pick]

I agree. I said “most”, because I can’t guarantee that everyone has had them blessed. That would have given Proallen something to really jump on if you know what i mean.

I agree, he will probably never answer the questions, but it is up to us to correct his misinterpretation and misrepresentations.

This may be a little off thread But how can you be a Cathloic and Protestant at the same time, are you a cathloic on say monday and cathloic on sunday

 

[twopekinguys]

This may be a little off thread But how can you be a Cathloic and Protestant at the same time, are you a cathloic on say monday and cathloic on sunday

Yes Bill, it is a little off topic, but it is clearly explained in my/our profile.

Two guys sharing one computer/screen name. Two Pekin Guys (Two Guys from Pekin)

Hope this helps.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Exactly. You also have to believe in every single title inferred upon Mary by the RCc. Co-mediatrix, co-redeptrix etc.

The titles are not a required doctrine. They illustrate how she relates to salvation history, but they are not “required doctrine.” I believe what BrianH told you is correct. The only two marian dogmas that are to be accepted de fide are the dogma of the immaculate conception and the dogma of the assumption. Even these must be understood as teaching more about the divinity of Christ than some sort of eccleastical conferral upon His mother.

Peace,
Robert

 

[Bill_Pick]

Yes Bill, it is a little off topic, but it is clearly explained in my/our profile.

Two guys sharing one computer/screen name. Two Pekin Guys (Two Guys from Pekin)

Hope this helps.

Be care ful ul I had three people using my PC and I got banned,long story

 

[cruisin]

Good question(s).

For me, it really boils down to judging and assuming.

Unless you actually speak to someone, there is no way of knowing what is in their heart. Anything else is specualtion and assumption.

Proallen’s pronouncement was that he saw something, and his interpretation was right based on what he viewed. Period. You will also notice that when he has been pressured about whether or not he asked them, or if it was an assumption, he has avoided answering. Sorry, but that is a big flag for me.

His posts just don’t “add up”, if you know what I mean. Any “Devout Catholic” would know that :

1. We don’t worship Mary, and that it is forbidden according to the Catechism.
   I understand that is what is taught.
2. People will not purposely drag their Rosary on the floor because in most cases they have been blessed. Blessed items are to be shown a certain amount of respect, and “dragging” them on the floor would not be showing it respect. They aren’t to be thrown around Willy Nilly so to speak. The question then is what was really being witnessed? We may never really know. by what he thinks he saw and what you are telling me here, seems to be a high degree of conflicting information. Could there then be lacking a proper level of catechisis? which means they could be crossing the line into Worship. I am not saying they were or weren’t, because I wasn’t there. But is the possibility there? there was some agreement at the beginning of the thread that this could happen.
3. When we pray the Rosary, we are meditating on the Life of Christ.
4. We don’t worship statues (idolatry), they are merely reminders of what that person stood for in this life.

So, you can see that at this point, he credibility on this issue is somewhat obscure at best.

I have attended many different churches in my time, and I have seen some really unusual things. Things that I didn’t understand, and things that made me feel uncomfortable. Instead of making a blanket statement about the practice, the church, or the participant, I have sought more information. I guess that comes from being Irish. The best way to learn, is to ask, and not to assume.

You see, it really boils down to what the Church actually teaches and believes versus what people **think **the Church teaches and believes. I can also add that there is no guarantee what a church teaches is always what all its people believe or practice.We tell people all the time that we i think in the “we” is where my problem lies. I can believe that the catholic church teaches " not to worship Mary" , but can one guarantee with absolute surety that one is not worshiping instead of venerating? don’t worship Mary, but for some it just goes in one ear and out the other.

Hope this helps.

Not really. I mean you concur with Bill that you have never seen anyone worship Mary, but you also say that no one can really know unless one would ask.

So the questions are; How can you say that you have never seen a person worship Mary if one must ask to make sure? have you asked everyone you have seen over your life time and asked weather they do or not. Then one must ask the next question " Does that person really understand the difference and what is the definition of that difference.

If there is no clear visual criteria to define worship and veneration then one cannot say that he has never seen with the eyes. There has to be a clear visual definition to no the difference. If you say you have never seen then you must have a set of criteria that tells you when and if.

I prefer to not practice something that, although is not taught as Idolatry and is ok with some churches, may take me over the line down the wrong road. If I get to close to the fire, I will probably get burned.

One final question; If there is not a clear definition then how do Catholics keep each other accountable in this area? brothers keeper?

I am not trying to be difficult here. the concept of seeing but not being able to see is befuddling me.

 

[cruisin]

Be care ful ul I had three people using my PC and I got banned,long story

I would agree. were they all using the same log in?

for me that would be an issue cause I never really know who I am posting to.

 

[regression]

Not really. I mean you concur with Bill that you have never seen anyone worship Mary, but you also say that no one can really know unless one would ask.

So the questions are; How can you say that you have never seen a person worship Mary if one must ask to make sure? have you asked everyone you have seen over your life time and asked weather they do or not. Then one must ask the next question " Does that person really understand the difference and what is the definition of that difference.

If there is no clear visual criteria to define worship and veneration then one cannot say that he has never seen with the eyes. There has to be a clear visual definition to no the difference. If you say you have never seen then you must have a set of criteria that tells you when and if.

I prefer to not practice something that, although is not taught as Idolatry and is ok with some churches, may take me over the line down the wrong road. If I get to close to the fire, I will probably get burned.

One final question; If there is not a clear definition then how do Catholics keep each other accountable in this area? brothers keeper?

I am not trying to be difficult here. the concept of seeing but not being able to see is befuddling me.

I’ll jump in. I have been reading through this thread…

Is it possible for some Catholics to worship Mary as God, of course. We all make assumptions and have bias. For example, I’ll admit I am biased in that if I see someone praying the rosary or praying in front of a statue of Mary that they are asking her to pray for them. Why do I assume this? Because as far back as I can remember (I am a cradle Catholic), I have been told we ask Mary to pray for us, that she needed a savior just like us, that she isn’t on the same “level” as God. Could I be wrong about what I see in the above examples, of course. But hopefully you see where I am coming from.

I can understand if someone has never heard of or seen the honoring of Mary would see someone praying in front of a statue of Mary think, “Wow, that is too far, that person is worshiping Mary or getting too close to it”. Again, we all have our basis and make assumptions based on our past, right or wrong.

So can someone honestly, with no doubt, be 100% correct and say they have never seen Catholics worshiping Mary? No. Can someone honestly, with no doubt, be 100% correct and say what they saw was people worshiping Mary? No. That is, without asking, of course.

Honestly, the first time I heard of Catholics worshiping Mary is fairly recent when I started reading these forums and reading books about people who have converted to the Catholic faith. Maybe I just lived a sheltered life .

About how Catholics keep each other accountable in this area, that’s a good question. Maybe there should be a test every so many years on Catholic dogma to make sure you are an “official” Catholic . But seriously, I suppose part of it is brothers keeper. Hopefully Catholics will continue to learn about their faith throughout their lives. In doing so, reading dogmaticly (is that a word?) correct books they will see what the Church really teaches about Mary.

Another way might be during mass. During the homily during the last Feast of the Assumption, the priest specifically said we honor Mary, ask her to pray for us and do not give her the same honor / glory as God. Hopefully if there was someone at that mass who worshiped Mary, that might make a light bulb go off in their head and learn the truth.

Anyway, hopefully my rambling made some sense.

Oh, I did say a rosary a while ago and if anyone is curious, I did so sitting on my couch, not crawling around on the floor

 

[cruisin]

I’ll jump in. I have been reading through this thread…

Is it possible for some Catholics to worship Mary as God, of course. We all make assumptions and have bias. For example, I’ll admit I am biased in that if I see someone praying the rosary or praying in front of a statue of Mary that they are asking her to pray for them. Why do I assume this? Because as far back as I can remember (I am a cradle Catholic), I have been told we ask Mary to pray for us, that she needed a savior just like us, that she isn’t on the same “level” as God. Could I be wrong about what I see in the above examples, of course. But hopefully you see where I am coming from.

I can understand if someone has never heard of or seen the honoring of Mary would see someone praying in front of a statue of Mary think, “Wow, that is too far, that person is worshiping Mary or getting too close to it”. Again, we all have our basis and make assumptions based on our past, right or wrong.

So can someone honestly, with no doubt, be 100% correct and say they have never seen Catholics worshiping Mary? No. Can someone honestly, with no doubt, be 100% correct and say what they saw was people worshiping Mary? No. That is, without asking, of course.

Honestly, the first time I heard of Catholics worshiping Mary is fairly recent when I started reading these forums and reading books about people who have converted to the Catholic faith. Maybe I just lived a sheltered life .

About how Catholics keep each other accountable in this area, that’s a good question. Maybe there should be a test every so many years on Catholic dogma to make sure you are an “official” Catholic . But seriously, I suppose part of it is brothers keeper. Hopefully Catholics will continue to learn about their faith throughout their lives. In doing so, reading dogmaticly (is that a word?) correct books they will see what the Church really teaches about Mary.

Another way might be during mass. During the homily during the last Feast of the Assumption, the priest specifically said we honor Mary, ask her to pray for us and do not give her the same honor / glory as God. Hopefully if there was someone at that mass who worshiped Mary, that might make a light bulb go off in their head and learn the truth.

Anyway, hopefully my rambling made some sense.

Oh, I did say a rosary a while ago and if anyone is curious, I did so sitting on my couch, not crawling around on the floor

I appreciate what you said above. Sometime I think we, as Christians fail to keep each other accountable. I think we take the get the log out of your own eye mentality to far some times along with the I’m ok your ok idea. Don’t rock the boat cause we might hurt someones feelings and the church might get sued.

My overall question though is what is the determining signs that define when one is worshiping when he should be venerating?

As John understood what he saw and wrote as worship in Revelation

Re 5:13 And to my ears came the voice of everything in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and of all things which are in them, saying, To him who is seated on the high seat, and to the Lamb, may blessing and honour and glory and power be given for ever and ever.
Re 5:14 And the four beasts said, So be it. And the rulers went down on their faces and gave worship.

Can we today truly know by sight, when one is worshiping inappropriately? What would that look like?

thanks cruisin

 

[Masters_Servant]

Yes, honour given to Mary and the saints can definitely go to excess. Anything can. They should never assume a position greater than God or be given equal worship as is given to God.
But you seem a bit too touchy about this, I think. Mary certainly deserves great honour, moreso than any other saints, but again, not equal to God. I certainly say multiple Hail Marys throughout the day - and multiple Our Fathers, as well. I regularly invoke the saints - it is part of our Catholic Tradition, and is something Protestants cannot claim to have. It is such a rich element to our faith and spiritual life, they have no idea how greatly they suffer from not having it.
Of course, there is no obligation to do any of this. Do what you are comfortable with and what gives you the most spiritual benefits. But don’t look down on other Catholics for their spiritual exercises, unless they really, really seem wrong and out of place (I.E. I have heard of people calling Mary ‘goddess’ ). That being said, I would encourage you to try to take up a bit more devotion to the Blessed Mother and God’s saints. I think you will find the spiritual benefits great indeed, and as I mentioned above, it is one of the richest and most unique parts of our Catholic faith. It just should never overtake the place of Jesus - ever.

I’m a Christian, that you would deem a “protestant”; not missing anything by being obedient to God in regards to prayer. How did Jesus answer when His disciples asked Him to teach them to pray. That prayer, known a the “Lord’s prayer”, but should be known as the “Disciples prayer” is the only model Jesus gave and the only one used by Jesus and the Apostles. What does one miss when they follow the example of the Lord, the prophets, and the Apostles? Nothing.

 

[GeorgeSword]

So the questions are; How can you say that you have never seen a person worship Mary if one must ask to make sure? have you asked everyone you have seen over your life time and asked weather they do or not. Then one must ask the next question " Does that person really understand the difference and what is the definition of that difference.

Have you ever seen a Catholic have a statue of Mary in place of the crucifix and call her their goddess saviour, say that she is the most high, that she is omnipotent and omnipresent, all powerful? That would be worship. I have yet to witness it by anyone who could remotely be called a Catholic (though there is, if I am not mistaken, a new agey group that actually does practice something similar to this).

 

[Masters_Servant]

Have you ever seen a Catholic have a statue of Mary in place of the crucifix and call her their goddess saviour, say that she is the most high, that she is omnipotent and omnipresent, all powerful? That would be worship. I have yet to witness it by anyone who could remotely be called a Catholic (though there is, if I am not mistaken, a new agey group that actually does practice something similar to this).

Your own church calls the reverence given to Mary a form of worship; hyper-dulia. Not the highest form of worship, Latria, given to God alone, and greater than dulia, reserved for saints, relics and other such objects. You can find that if you go to the Catholic Encyclopedia and put in “key word worship”; where it gives a more detailed explanation than I have, but nonetheless they call it what it is, a form of worship, with specific distinctions from the worship given to God, to Mary and saints.

 

[regression]

Your own church calls the reverence given to Mary a form of worship; hyper-dulia. Not the highest form of worship, Latria, given to God alone, and greater than dulia, reserved for saints, relics and other such objects. You can find that if you go to the Catholic Encyclopedia and put in “key word worship”; where it gives a more detailed explanation than I have, but nonetheless they call it what it is, a form of worship, with specific distinctions from the worship given to God, to Mary and saints.

The first few paragraphs on this page cleared it up for me. Languages change over time.

catholic.com/library/Saint_Worship.asp

 

[twopekinguys]

I appreciate what you said above. Sometime I think we, as Christians fail to keep each other accountable. I think we take the get the log out of your own eye mentality to far some times along with the I’m ok your ok idea. Don’t rock the boat cause we might hurt someones feelings and the church might get sued.

My overall question though is what is the determining signs that define when one is worshiping when he should be venerating? I don’t think there are any “determining signs” as you call them. There is not a specific action within the Catholic church that would distinguish between verneration or worship… (I think that is what you’re going for here). The only way to really know if someone is venerating as opposed to worshipping would be to ask, or if you heard them say something like “I worship X”, or some other categorical statement that would leave no doubt in your mind.

As John understood what he saw and wrote as worship in Revelation

Re 5:13 And to my ears came the voice of everything in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and of all things which are in them, saying, To him who is seated on the high seat, and to the Lamb, may blessing and honour and glory and power be given for ever and ever.
Re 5:14 And the four beasts said, So be it. And the rulers went down on their faces and gave worship.

Can we today truly know by sight, when one is worshiping inappropriately? What would that look like? No, I’m afraid there aren’t any definitive signs, sorry.
thanks cruisin

I think Regression has given you some very solid information here, and I agree with it.

Have you ever heard the saying, “It’s only wrong when someone else does it.”?
Back a long time ago,in the 1800’s, when anti-Catholocism was going strong, people would complain or criticize because a Catholic would bow as a sign of reverence to the Pope, statue, altar, etc. But yet when they finished dancing with their partner, they would bow and courtsey. They would ignore the fact that they were doing the same thing, while criticizing others.
Like you said earlier, it is the whole log in the eye thing.

 

[twopekinguys]

Originally Posted by twopekinguys
Good question(s).

For me, it really boils down to judging and assuming.

Unless you actually speak to someone, there is no way of knowing what is in their heart. Anything else is specualtion and assumption.

Proallen’s pronouncement was that he saw something, and his interpretation was right based on what he viewed. Period. You will also notice that when he has been pressured about whether or not he asked them, or if it was an assumption, he has avoided answering. Sorry, but that is a big flag for me.

His posts just don’t “add up”, if you know what I mean. Any “Devout Catholic” would know that :

1. We don’t worship Mary, and that it is forbidden according to the Catechism.
   I understand that is what is taught. Good, that’s a start.
2. People will not purposely drag their Rosary on the floor because in most cases they have been blessed. Blessed items are to be shown a certain amount of respect, and “dragging” them on the floor would not be showing it respect. They aren’t to be thrown around Willy Nilly so to speak. The question then is what was really being witnessed? We may never really know. by what he thinks he saw and what you are telling me here, seems to be a high degree of conflicting information. Could there then be lacking a proper level of catechisis? which means they could be crossing the line into Worship. I am not saying they were or weren’t, because I wasn’t there. But is the possibility there? there was some agreement at the beginning of the thread that this could happen. Sure, the possibility exists. I have learned to never say never. However, that same possibility exists in every denomination, with every teaching. No denomination is immune to one of their followers crossing the line on a teaching, and going overboard.
3. When we pray the Rosary, we are meditating on the Life of Christ.
4. We don’t worship statues (idolatry), they are merely reminders of what that person stood for in this life.

So, you can see that at this point, he credibility on this issue is somewhat obscure at best.

I have attended many different churches in my time, and I have seen some really unusual things. Things that I didn’t understand, and things that made me feel uncomfortable. Instead of making a blanket statement about the practice, the church, or the participant, I have sought more information. I guess that comes from being Irish. The best way to learn, is to ask, and not to assume.

You see, it really boils down to what the Church actually teaches and believes versus what people think the Church teaches and believes. I can also add that there is no guarantee what a church teaches is always what all its people believe or practice. Absolutely. Again, this isn’t an issue that is unique to the Catholic Church. It happens in all denominations.We tell people all the time that we i think in the “we” is where my problem lies. I can believe that the catholic church teaches " not to worship Mary" , but can one guarantee with absolute surety that one is not worshiping instead of venerating? Again, this isn’t something that only happens in the Catholic Church. It happens in all denominations. don’t worship Mary, but for some it just goes in one ear and out the other.

It looks like you are looking for an absolute here. The only thing that is absolute is that the Church teaches and instructs that a Catholic does not, should not, will not worship Mary, Statues, etc. That worship is only directed to God, the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

I mean, can we guarantee every member of every church follows their denominations teachings 100% without fail? The answer is a big no. If every member of every church followed their teachings 100%, there would be no adultery, no divorce, no abortion, etc. All churches are made up of sinners, plain and simple.
Hope this helps.

 

[twopekinguys]

Be care ful ul I had three people using my PC and I got banned,long story

Thank you for your concern, but it hasn’t been a problem yet, as I trust my associate implicitly.

 

[regression]

Your own church calls the reverence given to Mary a form of worship; hyper-dulia. Not the highest form of worship, Latria, given to God alone, and greater than dulia, reserved for saints, relics and other such objects. You can find that if you go to the Catholic Encyclopedia and put in “key word worship”; where it gives a more detailed explanation than I have, but nonetheless they call it what it is, a form of worship, with specific distinctions from the worship given to God, to Mary and saints.

I guess I should clarify what I said earlier. When I said the church doesn’t teach we should worship Mary, I was referring to the worship due to God. In our time (2010), it is not common to find the word worship used in a way that does not mean worshiping God. Although if you look the word up in a dictionary, you will see that is not the only thing it means.

As an example, if I am reading a book and it says “John is gay”, what does that mean? Is John happy or is John a homosexual? If the book was written a couple hundred years ago, likely it meant he is happy. If the book was written today, it likely means he is a homosexual. Although it could mean he is happy…

I don’t think it would be fair to say: the word gay today (2010) usually means homosexual, so everything I read, no matter when it was written, no matter the context, gay has always meant homosexual.

 

[Vile_Servant]

I would respectfully disagree with you on two counts. First, the church is not doing a good job teaching Scripture to its faithful. Scripture clearly shows us that nobody, not even the Virgin Mary is worthy to stand before God alone without being cloaked with the Savior Christ.

The church has done a great job teaching scripture to its faithful.
For example, scripture clearly shows us in Luke 1:46-55 ;
*And Mary said:
“My soul doth magnify the Lord. And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid;
for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
Because he that is mighty, hath done great things to me; and holy is his name.
And his mercy is from generation unto generations, to them that fear him.
He hath shewed might in his arm: he hath scattered the proud in the conceit of their heart.
He hath put down the mighty from their seat, and hath exalted the humble.
He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away.
He hath received Israel his servant, being mindful of his mercy:
As he spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to his seed for ever.” *

Almighty God has done great things to Mary, and has exalted her because of her humility.
Therefore all generations shall call her blessed.

Second, I do not agree that teaching to kneel and petition to Mary is helpful nor righteous. Jesus is our one and only true mediator and He faithfully hears our petitions. This is one of the main reasons why I had to leave the Catholic church.

Kneeling and petitioning to Mary is a sign of humility, for which God will exalt His faithful servants. Our Heavenly Mother and Queen never fails to lead us to her son, our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Mary’s humility is a great example for all to imitate Christ our Saviour who has taught, “Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.” (Matthew 11:29)

I don’t see why you had to leave the Catholic church. If you prefer to petition Jesus and no other, that is your choice. the Catholic church would not have excommunicated you for that.

 

[Proallen]

The church has done a great job teaching scripture to its faithful.
For example, scripture clearly shows us in Luke 1:46-55 ;
And Mary said:
"My soul doth magnify the Lord. And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid;
for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
Because he that is mighty, hath done great things to me; and holy is his name.
And his mercy is from generation unto generations, to them that fear him.
He hath shewed might in his arm: he hath scattered the proud in the conceit of their heart.
He hath put down the mighty from their seat, and hath exalted the humble.
He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away.
He hath received Israel his servant, being mindful of his mercy:
As he spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to his seed for ever."

Almighty God has done great things to Mary, and has exalted her because of her humility.
Therefore all generations shall call her blessed.

It wouldn’t make any difference to me if they had.

The Scriptures that you use do not correlate to your points about Mary at all. You call her Queen at one point which Scripture says nothing about. The problem is that you cannot connect the dots bewteen all of these supposed truths about Mary and what Scripture says (or in this case ‘doesn’t’ say) about her.

 

[Vile_Servant]

It wouldn’t make any difference to me if they had.

The Scriptures that you use do not correlate to your points about Mary at all. You call her Queen at one point which Scripture says nothing about. The problem is that you cannot connect the dots bewteen all of these supposed truths about Mary and what Scripture says (or in this case ‘doesn’t’ say) about her.

1. Mary was humble. “Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid;” (Luke 1:47)
2. Mary was exalted because she was humble. “He hath put down the mighty from their seat, and hath **exalted the humble. **” (Luke 1:52)
3. Mary was raised in rank and dignity (“exalted”) to become Mother of God.
4. Jesus, the Lamb that was slain, is the Lord of Lords and King of Kings. “These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for He is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with Him are called, and chosen, and faithful” (Revelation 17:14).
5. Mary, the Mother of the King of Kings, is therefore our Heavenly Queen.
6. Therefore, it is fitting to honor Mary, the Mother of God and Queen of Heaven.

 

[Bill_Pick]

He can not answer because it did not happen,if it did happen tell us where and what Church and what was the priest doing,and why did he not step in and stop it,because it did not happen. The question is not that hard to answer