Mother Mary

[Vile_Servant]

Scripture doesn’t tell us that. However, it does tell us that Jesus is the only way to the Father and that under no other name are we saved. Mary’s great, but I don’t see her anywhere in this realm.

some writings of the Church Fathers;

Gregory the Wonderworker

*“It is our duty to present to God, like sacrifices, all the festivals and hymnal celebrations; and first of all, [the feast of] the Annunciation to the holy Mother of God, to wit, the salutation made to her by the angel, ‘Hail, full of grace!’” (Four Homilies 1 [A.D. 262]).
(ibid., 2). *

Peter of Alexandria

*“They came to the church of the most blessed Mother of God, and ever-virgin Mary, which, as we began to say, he had constructed in the western quarter, in a suburb, for a cemetery of the martyrs” (The Genuine Acts of Peter of Alexandria [A.D. 305]). *

Methodius
*
“Hail to you forever, you virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for unto you do I again return. . . . Hail, you fount of the Son’s love for man. . . . Wherefore, we pray you, the most excellent among women, who boast in the confidence of your maternal honors, that you would unceasingly keep us in remembrance. O holy Mother of God, remember us, I say, who make our boast in you, and who in august hymns celebrate your memory, which will ever live, and never fade away” (Oration on Simeon and Anna 7 [A.D. 305]). (ibid., 14).*

Ambrose of Milan

*“The first thing which kindles ardor in learning is the greatness of the teacher. What is greater than the Mother of God? What more glorious than she whom Glory Itself chose?” (The Virgins 2:2[7] [A.D. 377]). *

 

[twopekinguys]

I asked you a question in which you are conveniently not answering.

I am “convienently” not answering?

You might want to look back over the thread and see how many things you have failed to respond to. Typical dodge tactic.

What question is it you feel I haven’t answered?

I asked you a question that you haven’t responded to, and that was “What is it you’re wanting to refute?”

You my friend, are the one who keeps moving the goal posts.

 

[twopekinguys]

But the point here is that NO other Christian church contains those two statements. You can’t have it both ways here.

So because no other Christian church(your definition of "christian) contains these statements, that automatically makes them right? Sorry, it doesn’t work that way.

Let me ask you this. Do you think Catholics are Christian?

 

[Cursilista]

God is our Father, Jesus is his son, we are all his children. These statements indicate a family. Where is the mother? You cant have a family without a mother. I know that this may sound simplistic, but it really is. A mothers role in a family is special and nesecarry indeed. A mother is nuturing, caring, and loving. Mary Epitomized the role of Mother to us all. She was not just a sacred vessel that God used for his son to be born within, she raised Jesus. She feed him, nutured him, taught him, nursed him, understood him and his role in Gods plan. She was the first to know who he truly was before anyone else. They were together for 30 years before she had to nudge him into his ministry at the wedding at Canna. She knew it was his time. What other woman is as prominent in the bible as Mary?

I honor Mary for her devotion to God and to Jesus, her son. I feel that she has a special place in heaven based on the role she played, her faith, and her devotion to God. I feel that she is in a posistion in heaven to appeal to the Lord on our behalf just as the saints do. Only I feel that she may have more pull (tongue in cheek) being that she was Jesus’ mother.

time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1037624-1,00.html

This is a link to a Time magazine article on how Protestants are revisiting the role of Mary

 

[twopekinguys]

We have agreement…let’s celebrate. Catholics do not believe the only way to Jesus is through Mary either.

:clapping::dancing::extrahappy: :egyptian:

 

[Lapey]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lapey
Please list the “Marian Dogmas”. I am talking about actual real dogma, not rumor or false information. Dogma is proclaimed publicly by the Church in her councils and by her popes.
What’s problematic is that it is nowhere contained in Holy Scripture.
Lapey-
This doesn’t look like a list, this is problematic, the fact that you over look my request to list them.
Quote:
If you go any further than what has been stated here, IC, VB, Assumption you tell untruths. The CCC tells us many things the Church believes, none of it is on the Catholic test to become a full fledged member of His Church, NONE. Do you know why? There is no test!!!
So then you don’t have to profess anything to become Catholic??
Lapey- Yes the creed, a profession of faith, the “Nicene Creed” that is proclaimed at every mass. There is no Marian Creed. “…by the power of the Holy Spirit He was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man.” This is the only mention of Mary in the profession of faith.
Quote:
Many Catholics do not believe all that is written in the catechism, are they thrown out? No, all of us are on a journey of faith. Many of the teachings I once thought unimportant and not true, but now have come to realize to be truth. It’s a walk towards this salvation that Christ offers each and every one of us. As we grow we understand more and more of these teachings make sense. However if my mind and heart stay fixed on the world, i do not grow in faith. The grace that Christ offers me daily is not accepted, He will still offer it but I refuse to accept it.
So then Catholic doctrine is no more solid than most Protestant doctrine and theology.
Lapey- Do you know of any protestants who at one moment in time of their life “know” all that is there to be known about the Lord, or the salvation He is offering us? I doubt it, it is called a walk or journey for a reason. The doctrine is solid, man is broken.
Quote:
The IC and the Assumption are official teaching and dogma of the Church, but not required to begin your journey.
So then I could be Catholic and NEVER proclaim or believe that Mary was assumed into Heaven body and spirit and NEVER believe that she was immaculately conceived??
Lapey- Yes you could, but in time you will I promise; unless the Word of God is dead to you and you conform your mind and heart to the world and not Him. But there is no “requirement” to believe these doctrines to become or remain Catholic, also it is not required that we pray the rosary. I do not have a devotion to the rosary, however I pray to Mary often. Many do have a devotion to the rosary.
Quote:
To get back to the original topic, yes some Catholics do go too far with these devotions, but not by the leadership of the Church. These abuses are found in the clergy and the laity. Kneeling before a statue of Mary to pray for intersession of the Blessed Virgin to Jesus on my behalf is not wrong. It can be elevated to idolatry by some by forgetting the purpose for praying to Mary, to become closer to Christ.
I’m sorry but this is just nonsensical. nowhere in Scripture does it ever even elude to doing such things to be closer to Christ. The Bible and the Roman church are clearly not on par here.
Lapey- If you are honestly learning what the Church really teaches, you will see that NOTHING in the Church is contrary to the bible. May be different than your interpretation but not scripture. There may be some aspects of Catholicism that are not found in scripture but that doesn’t mean they contradict scripture.
Quote:
The titles mentioned above, co-redemtris and co-midiatrix are not official Church teachings, and may never be. Although there are many in the Church that would like to see these titles become official.

No other Christian church I know of uses these terms besides the Roman church. That in and of itself is saying something here.

Lapey- I have already addressed this.

 

[PJM]

=Roblox84;6390046]I have a friend that was on a missions trip in Chile South America. When they came back they told me that they have a huge statue of Mary in the center of town and people come from all over to kneel beside it and pray to it. I know that we should honor Mary, but does any other Catholic think that sometimes some may take it too far? I’m not one that pray’s to Mary or any saints, but I can understand when someone say’s the rosary or say’s a prayer to a saint in time of need. Even a short prayer to Mary, just not everday or five times a day. And ther are many that buy statues of only Mary for the house and there is no Christ anywhere in their home. Wouldn’t most people want to put Christ before anything else?. It just seems like things like this bring a bad name to a lot of Catholics. I would like to hear peoples opinion on this.

Even good things can and are abused; that’a why so many are over weight. It’s no different with faith practices.

Catholic who actually know and practice the CF, reverence Mary and Worship God alone.

But let me ask you a couple of questons:

Did Jesus love and reverence His Mother? So why shouln’t we. [She’s our Spiritual Mother]
Jesus Himself made it so. **John 19: 25 **So the soldiers did this. But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Mag’dalene. When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son!” Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!”

Next queston: when you were growing up was it easier to get get something from “mom or dad”? For many of us it was and is mom.

Do we need to pray THROUGH Mary, No, but it’s a darn good practice. Amen!

Love and prayers,
Pat

 

[twopekinguys]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lapey
Please list the “Marian Dogmas”. I am talking about actual real dogma, not rumor or false information. Dogma is proclaimed publicly by the Church in her councils and by her popes.
What’s problematic is that it is nowhere contained in Holy Scripture.
Lapey-
This doesn’t look like a list, this is problematic, the fact that you over look my request to list them.
Quote:
If you go any further than what has been stated here, IC, VB, Assumption you tell untruths. The CCC tells us many things the Church believes, none of it is on the Catholic test to become a full fledged member of His Church, NONE. Do you know why? There is no test!!!
So then you don’t have to profess anything to become Catholic??
Lapey- Yes the creed, a profession of faith, the “Nicene Creed” that is proclaimed at every mass. There is no Marian Creed. “…by the power of the Holy Spirit He was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man.” This is the only mention of Mary in the profession of faith.
Quote:
Many Catholics do not believe all that is written in the catechism, are they thrown out? No, all of us are on a journey of faith. Many of the teachings I once thought unimportant and not true, but now have come to realize to be truth. It’s a walk towards this salvation that Christ offers each and every one of us. As we grow we understand more and more of these teachings make sense. However if my mind and heart stay fixed on the world, i do not grow in faith. The grace that Christ offers me daily is not accepted, He will still offer it but I refuse to accept it.
So then Catholic doctrine is no more solid than most Protestant doctrine and theology.
Lapey- Do you know of any protestants who at one moment in time of their life “know” all that is there to be known about the Lord, or the salvation He is offering us? I doubt it, it is called a walk or journey for a reason. The doctrine is solid, man is broken.
Quote:
The IC and the Assumption are official teaching and dogma of the Church, but not required to begin your journey.
So then I could be Catholic and NEVER proclaim or believe that Mary was assumed into Heaven body and spirit and NEVER believe that she was immaculately conceived??
Lapey- Yes you could, but in time you will I promise; unless the Word of God is dead to you and you conform your mind and heart to the world and not Him. But there is no “requirement” to believe these doctrines to become or remain Catholic, also it is not required that we pray the rosary. I do not have a devotion to the rosary, however I pray to Mary often. Many do have a devotion to the rosary.
Quote:
To get back to the original topic, yes some Catholics do go too far with these devotions, but not by the leadership of the Church. These abuses are found in the clergy and the laity. Kneeling before a statue of Mary to pray for intersession of the Blessed Virgin to Jesus on my behalf is not wrong. It can be elevated to idolatry by some by forgetting the purpose for praying to Mary, to become closer to Christ.
I’m sorry but this is just nonsensical. nowhere in Scripture does it ever even elude to doing such things to be closer to Christ. The Bible and the Roman church are clearly not on par here.
Lapey- If you are honestly learning what the Church really teaches, you will see that NOTHING in the Church is contrary to the bible. May be different than your interpretation but not scripture. There may be some aspects of Catholicism that are not found in scripture but that doesn’t mean they contradict scripture.
Quote:
The titles mentioned above, co-redemtris and co-midiatrix are not official Church teachings, and may never be. Although there are many in the Church that would like to see these titles become official.

No other Christian church I know of uses these terms besides the Roman church. That in and of itself is saying something here.

Lapey- I have already addressed this.

 

[Anna_Scott]

How and why is it all about Mary?? There is so many writings and so much mind twisting and wrenching about how to incorporate Mary more and more into diety when it all comes down to Jesus. Go to Christ!!! The Redeemer. Where does it say that we need Mary to get to Jesus. This is twisted and perverted logic. Jesus said I am the Way the Truth and the Life and NO ONE goes onto to the Father except through me. He said I am the bread of life. Stop spinning your wheels. Get onto Christ.

Proallen,

I see that you are new to the forums, having joined just two days ago. So, welcome!

Many Protestants hit the forums with “guns blazing” eager to show Catholics the “error of their ways.” I had a bit of an attitude, myself, when I first came to the forums. That attitude was duly adjusted over time. I learned a great deal about Christian charity from the Catholics on these forums.

Ask questions, debate issues, state your beliefs, agree, disagree. The forums are designed for this. However, I would urge you to, at least, consider what others have to say. You don’t have to agree.

Keep in mind that most people will give your posts greater consideration, if you post with Christian charity and respect–which will not diminish the passion of your beliefs.

Christ called us to love one another. It is easy to forget that, when discussing the issues. I know, because I have had to go back and apologize to people a number of times. And I’m sure there were apologies due, that I never gave.

Just a few words of “unsolicited advise.”

In Christ,
Anna

 

[twopekinguys]

Proallen,

I see that you are new to the forums, having joined just two days ago. So, welcome!

Many Protestants hit the forums with “guns blazing” eager to show Catholics the “error of their ways.” I had a bit of an attitude, myself, when I first came to the forums. That attitude was duly adjusted over time. I learned a great deal about Christian charity from the Catholics on these forums.

Ask questions, debate issues, state your beliefs, agree, disagree. The forums are designed for this. However, I would urge you to, at least, consider what others have to say. You don’t have to agree.

Keep in mind that most people will give your posts greater consideration, if you post with Christian charity and respect–which will not diminish the passion of your beliefs.

Christ called us to love one another. It is easy to forget that, when discussing the issues. I know, because I have had to go back and apologize to people a number of times. And I’m sure there were apologies due, that I never gave.

Just a few words of “unsolicited advise.”

In Christ,
Anna

Well said.

 

[cruisin]

The wedding couple at Cana no doubt were completely thankful that Mary interceded to Jesus on their behalf and saved their blushes on their big day. Note that Mary did not command Jesus to work a miracle, she simply told Him that they had no wine, trusting fully in God’s divine providence to find a solution to the problem. Jesus, touched by Mary’s love for others, worked the miracle. We of little faith and love, have much to learn from Mary’s example.

sounds like 2000 year of reading between the lines to me… Johns purpose for writing this was to prove Christs divinity not Mary’s.

 

[GeorgeSword]

sounds like 2000 year of reading between the lines to me… Johns purpose for writing this was to prove Christs divinity not Mary’s.

 

[cruisin]

Bosses, in general aren’t married to their secretaries, unless the business is a home based partnership. And this sound chauvinistic ( sp?) to me. Husband and Wife are supposed to be one, and equal. I try to listen to my wife alot. Unless the request is about something that only the father can control or make happen, there is nothing wrong with asking the mother for something. Wives can speak for husbands, as well as the other way around. SInce Jesus is God, and Mary is not, He is allowed to reprimand her. This in no way dimishes the honor due to her.

Show me where God place man and woman are equal within the dynamics of the family?

sounds like you have relationship dynamics problem to me. I want to hear from my kid not my wife. This has nothing to do with listening or polling her for her opnion. If my kid is afraid to come to me for his needs then how afraid is he going to be in the working world when he wants a raise or needs something form his boss.

Fear creates a barrier and then we have to place soemthing in between us and what we are afraid of for protection. i have heard time and again on these boards where people are afraidto go to god so they turn to mary or one of the saints. I see this as a problem.

to take something on the earth and place it into the heavenly realm is a leap. Christ said no one will be married in heaven or will be taken in marriage.

There is no imperical evidence of this Mary doctrine outside of catholic tradition.

sounds like man making god in hims image to me.

I will agree to disagree at this point in time

 

[twopekinguys]

sounds like 2000 year of reading between the lines to me… Johns purpose for writing this was to prove Christs divinity not Mary’s.

When the word “Divine” is used in the Holy Catholic Church, it is in reference to God only. “Divine” is a word that is applied to the Creator, a Supreme Being. The Virgin Mary does not qualify for such a title.

Mary is not Divine. She is only Holy. At the same time, as some saints of the Church have received special titles such as “Doctor of the Church,” the Blessed Virgin Mary has received endless titles because of her God given position as Mother of God and her ongoing role of special intercession to God for mankind.

catholicdoors.com/faq/qu84.htm

So as you see, the writings are not trying to prove Mary’s divinity, that is your fallible interpretation.

 

[twopekinguys]

Show me where God place man and woman are equal within the dynamics of the family?

sounds like you have relationship dynamics problem to me. I want to hear from my kid not my wife. This has nothing to do with listening or polling her for her opnion. If my kid is afraid to come to me for his needs then how afraid is he going to be in the working world when he wants a raise or needs something form his boss.

Fear creates a barrier and then we have to place soemthing in between us and what we are afraid of for protection. i have heard time and again on these boards where people are afraidto go to god so they turn to mary or one of the saints. I see this as a problem.

to take something on the earth and place it into the heavenly realm is a leap. Christ said no one will be married in heaven or will be taken in marriage.

There is no imperical evidence of this Mary doctrine outside of catholic tradition.

sounds like man making god in hims image to me.

I will agree to disagree at this point in time

I am not sure how, or why you have brought fear into this.

It has absolutely nothing to do with fear, it has to do with getting a desired response to a request.

As a parent, I want my child to come to me, and he usually does. However, there are occasions where he knows that his mother and I will discuss an issue, and resolve it together. That is what parenting is about. If his mother can present a valid argument showing why I should accept her and my son’s request, I will do it. That shows my son a couple of things. 1. I value his mother, and her opinions as a parent. 2. I value her opinions as my wife, and it shows I respect her. 3. If it shows him that I value his mother, it will show him I value him and his opinions as well.

It is also disrespectful and insulting of you to say someone has a relationship dynamic problem because they don’t parent the same way you do.

 

[cruisin]

It is also disrespectful and insulting of you to say someone has a relationship dynamic problem because they don’t parent the same way you do.

twopekinguys original quote:
And this sound chauvinistic ( sp?) to me

cruisins exact quote.
sounds like you have relationship dynamics problem to me.

But it’s ok to call me a chauvinist because my views are different than yours. You started the name calling. when you wanna have a civilized conversation let me know.

sounds like a double standard to me. but what do I know. I’m not Catholic.

 

[cruisin]

When the word “Divine” is used in the Holy Catholic Church, it is in reference to God only. “Divine” is a word that is applied to the Creator, a Supreme Being. The Virgin Mary does not qualify for such a title.

Mary is not Divine. She is only Holy. At the same time, as some saints of the Church have received special titles such as “Doctor of the Church,” the Blessed Virgin Mary has received endless titles because of her God given position as Mother of God and her ongoing role of special intercession to God for mankind. Please show me where this special position was given to her. please be specific. Where did God say this? I really don’t want to miss it. I’m just an incompetent protestant. And please don’t use all the standard catholic talking points. they don’t fit.

catholicdoors.com/faq/qu84.htm

So as you see, the writings are not trying to prove Mary’s divinity, that is your fallible interpretation.

 

[cruisin]

I am not sure how, or why you have brought fear into this.

It has absolutely nothing to do with fear, My point was that I have read many posts from catholics here on this board who pray to Mary and the saints because they are afraid to go to God directly. This is not what God wants or what the apostles taught.it has to do with getting a desired response to a request. so your intention is to manipulate God for selfish reasons?

As a parent, I want my child to come to me, and he usually does. However, there are occasions where he knows that his mother and I will discuss an issue, and resolve it together. That is what parenting is about. If his mother can present a valid argument showing why I should accept her and my son’s request, I will do it. That shows my son a couple of things. 1. I value his mother, and her opinions as a parent. 2. I value her opinions as my wife, and it shows I respect her. 3. If it shows him that I value his mother, it will show him I value him and his opinions as well. I don’t think God needs to discuss anything with Mary to make a decision since He already knows our needs. Not our wants.

It is also disrespectful and insulting of you to say someone has a relationship dynamic problem because they don’t parent the same way you do.

I see nothing in the Holy scriptures that gives the supporting evidence to place Mary into the position that the Catholic church claims. Or that anyone in Heaven can hear anything from earth. I believe they are still aware of us, but no evidence that they hear us.

but, If that is what you want to believe so be it. I will agree to disagree on the subject for now.

 

[Lapey]

I see nothing in the Holy scriptures that gives the supporting evidence to place Mary into the position that the Catholic church claims. Or that anyone in Heaven can hear anything from earth. I believe they are still aware of us, but no evidence that they hear us.

but, If that is what you want to believe so be it. I will agree to disagree on the subject for now.

It must truly be a great life you live, being so much smarter than 2000 years of history and all the most knowledgable people in the Church. I mean by just reading the bible you could figure out that the Church was, is and always will be destined for hell because we worship Mary.

We try constantly to explain the teachings of Mother Church but some of you people are just too smart for us lowly Catholics. I think I’ll just quit trying, I’ll never get it.

By the way Mr Bible man, what kind of vehicle do you use to get around? Donkey or camel, as cars and trucks cannot be found in the bible.

“Not all is written…” can you find where I found this?

 

[adstrinity]

Who’s scared to pray to God on this forum?