Mother Mary

[Vile_Servant]

If someone bowed to a statue in my church petitioning it, they would be thrown out no matter if the statue was of Mary or any saint. That tells the story of my church’s doctrine. Why won’t Rome deal with this in the same way? Your doctrine proclaims that only God is to be worshipped but yet they allow idolotry.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church; Part 3, Section 2, Article 1, IV. “YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FOR YOURSELF A GRAVEN IMAGE . . .”

2130 Nevertheless, already in the Old Testament, God ordained or permitted the making of images that pointed symbolically toward salvation by the incarnate Word: so it was with the bronze serpent, the ark of the covenant, and the cherubim.

(Num 21:8-9)
The LORD said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.” So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, he lived.

(1 Kings 6:23-28)
In the inner sanctuary he made two cherubim (A) 15 feet [a] high out of olive wood. 24 One wing of the [first] cherub was seven and a half feet long, ** and the other wing was seven and a half feet long. The wingspan was 15 feet [c] from tip to tip. 25 The second cherub also was 15 feet; [d] both cherubim had the same size and shape. 26 The first cherub’s height was 15 feet [e] and so was the second cherub’s. Then he put the cherubim inside the inner temple.* Since their wings were spread out, the first one’s wing touched [one] wall while the second cherub’s wing touched the other [f] wall, and in the middle of the temple their wings were touching wing to wing. (B) He also overlaid the cherubim with gold.

2131 Basing itself on the mystery of the incarnate Word, the seventh ecumenical council at Nicaea (787) justified against the iconoclasts the veneration of icons - of Christ, but also of the Mother of God, the angels, and all the saints. By becoming incarnate, the Son of God introduced a new “economy” of images.

2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, “the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype,” and "whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it."70 The honor paid to sacred images is a “respectful veneration,” not the adoration due to God alone:

Decree of the Second Council of Nicaea:
"we decree with full precision and care that,
like the figure of the honoured and life-giving cross,
the revered and holy images,
whether painted or made of mosaic
or of other suitable material,
are to be exposed
in the holy churches of God,
on sacred instruments and vestments,
on walls and panels,
in houses and by public ways,

these are the images of
our Lord, God and saviour, Jesus Christ, and of
our Lady without blemish, the holy God-bearer, and of
the revered angels and of
any of the saintly holy men.

The more frequently they are seen in representational art, the more are those who see them drawn to remember and long for those who serve as models, and to pay these images the tribute of salutation and respectful veneration. Certainly this is not the full adoration {latria} in accordance with our faith, which is properly paid only to the divine nature, but it resembles that given to the figure of the honoured and life-giving cross, and also to the holy books of the gospels and to other sacred cult objects. Further, people are drawn to honour these images with the offering of incense and lights, as was piously established by ancient custom. Indeed, the honour paid to an image traverses it, reaching the model, and he who venerates the image, venerates the person represented in that image." *

 

[Proallen]

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church; Part 3, Section 2, Article 1, IV. “YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FOR YOURSELF A GRAVEN IMAGE . . .”

2130 Nevertheless, already in the Old Testament, God ordained or permitted the making of images that pointed symbolically toward salvation by the incarnate Word: so it was with the bronze serpent, the ark of the covenant, and the cherubim.

(Num 21:8-9)
The LORD said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.” So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, he lived.

(1 Kings 6:23-28)
In the inner sanctuary he made two cherubim (A) 15 feet [a] high out of olive wood. 24 One wing of the [first] cherub was seven and a half feet long, ** and the other wing was seven and a half feet long. The wingspan was 15 feet [c] from tip to tip. 25 The second cherub also was 15 feet; [d] both cherubim had the same size and shape. 26 The first cherub’s height was 15 feet [e] and so was the second cherub’s. Then he put the cherubim inside the inner temple.** Since their wings were spread out, the first one’s wing touched [one] wall while the second cherub’s wing touched the other [f] wall, and in the middle of the temple their wings were touching wing to wing. (B) He also overlaid the cherubim with gold.

2131 Basing itself on the mystery of the incarnate Word, the seventh ecumenical council at Nicaea (787) justified against the iconoclasts the veneration of icons - of Christ, but also of the Mother of God, the angels, and all the saints. By becoming incarnate, the Son of God introduced a new “economy” of images.

2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, “the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype,” and "whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it."70 The honor paid to sacred images is a “respectful veneration,” not the adoration due to God alone:

Decree of the Second Council of Nicaea:
"we decree with full precision and care that,
like the figure of the honoured and life-giving cross,
the revered and holy images,
whether painted or made of mosaic
or of other suitable material,
are to be exposed
in the holy churches of God,
on sacred instruments and vestments,
on walls and panels,
in houses and by public ways,

these are the images of
our Lord, God and saviour, Jesus Christ, and of
our Lady without blemish, the holy God-bearer, and of
the revered angels and of
any of the saintly holy men.

The more frequently they are seen in representational art, the more are those who see them drawn to remember and long for those who serve as models, and to pay these images the tribute of salutation and respectful veneration. Certainly this is not the full adoration {latria} in accordance with our faith, which is properly paid only to the divine nature, but it resembles that given to the figure of the honoured and life-giving cross, and also to the holy books of the gospels and to other sacred cult objects. Further, people are drawn to honour these images with the offering of incense and lights, as was piously established by ancient custom. Indeed, the honour paid to an image traverses it, reaching the model, and he who venerates the image, venerates the person represented in that image."

You can spare me the Scripture lesson. I know Scripture fairly well.

 

[T_More]

You are distorting what he commanded us to do with what he commanded us NOT to do.

I distort nothing. Did He not do what I cited? Why would God allow these images when He commanded what He did in the 10 commandments? Your thoughts? Is God being inconsistent?

 

[roselily]

And I am still waiting for a decent and logical response from you. I told you what I saw. Do you think anyone would go up to someone bowing and crying and petitioning in front of a statue of Mary and ask them whether they are worshipping Mary or the statue?? Come on. How stupid is that?? And what does it matter. IT’S IDOLOTRY!! If anyone ever did that in my church, they would be thrown out and asked NEVER to come back. That is the point!! This exists in your church alone because Rome refuses to take the proper action to stop it. That speaks volumes about how your church REALLY believes and practices. Who cares what Rome says when they do something totally different.

Proallen! They only worship God and Honor all Saints and honor Holy Mother deeply in the heart.
Statues were made by stone, how should one worship?
Oh, Proallen, I think you know not even how to think of this, and that even in youtube worship songs, protestants not allowed to use images to recall?
if someone bowing and crying and petitioning in front of a statue of Mary would be thrown out and asked never come back in your church? I thought that- We Christians, we are all brothers sisters in Christ, Love is most important, and I read that if you are perfect thrown the first stone. one is not allowed to knelt down in front of Holy Mother statue or our Father statue in church?
Mother, mother!

Proallen, my brother or sister in Christ, Catholics only worship God.
Peace be with you.
catholic.com/library/Saint_Worship.asp
catholic.com/library/Do_Catholics_Worship_Statues.asp

 

[Vile_Servant]

I witnessed folks at different intervals praying to statues of Mary both in the church and outside on the grounds petitioning her for special favors. Some of these folks would come into the church several times during the week and do this and not particularly during any special times like Holy Week. The parish priest was confronted about it many times to no avail. I assume that the bishop was also notified at some point. But most of the parishioners seemingly had no issue with this. I have also witnessed folks who crawled around the church especially during the beginning of mass.

You would not have have any objection asking a dear friend to do you a favor, i presume. Well, these folks are asking Mary to do them a favor, to assist them by presenting their petitions to God to answer their prayers. I don’t see anything wrong with that.

 

[Vile_Servant]

You can spare me the Scripture lesson. I know Scripture fairly well.

Then you should have no objection to the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

 

[Proallen]

You would not have have any objection asking a dear friend to do you a favor, i presume. Well, these folks are asking Mary to do them a favor, to assist them by presenting their petitions to God to answer their prayers. I don’t see anything wrong with that.

That’s not what they are doing. They were petitioning Mary to do favors for them. They were not asking Mary to pray for them. They were praying out loud.

 

[Proallen]

Then you should have no objection to the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Oh please…

 

[twopekinguys]

twopekinguys;6419990:

Nothing of the such has happened!

You’re kidding with this right? You realize those posts and answers are there for you and everyone else to see right?

Your refutations are from Scripture quotes that do not support the Catholic point of view by any stetch of the imagination and you refuse to deal with the blatant idolotry that goes on in your churches.

Tell me why they don’t support it. Just telling me they don’t support it isn’t really an answer, and in no way supports your position.

You cannot prove anything you claim so your tactic is to turn it against those who question. What you are doing to me is no different. It’s laughable and shameful.

Proving you wrong with scripture, and the catechism is laughable, and shameful?

If someone bowed to a statue in my church petitioning it, they would be thrown out no matter if the statue was of Mary or any saint. That tells the story of my church’s doctrine. Why won’t Rome deal with this in the same way? Your doctrine proclaims that only God is to be worshipped but yet they allow idolotry. They will excommunicate for speaking against Holy Father, but they do nothing when our Lord is disrespected by someone worshipping Mary. How shameful!!

Well, first of all, Catholics don’t “petition” statues. It has been explained to you that statues merely represent the person, and what they stood for. They are reminders only.

It has been pointed out to you in the Catechism that idolatry is forbidden. You realize that there are over a billion Catholics right. The Church is not a police state. There are no church police to keep tabs on everyone. The church teaches and instructs. The Church trusts that with proper teaching that an individual will follow those teachings.
People from all walks of life and faiths speak out against the Holy Father. I don’t know of any in modern times that has been formally excommunicated. Maybe you can provide an example of who has.

 

[Proallen]

Proallen! They only worship God and Honor all Saints and honor Holy Mother deeply in the heart.
Statues were made by stone, how should one worship?
Oh, Proallen, I think you know not even how to think of this, and that even in youtube worship songs, protestants not allowed to use images to recall?
if someone bowing and crying and petitioning in front of a statue of Mary would be thrown out and asked never come back in your church? I thought that- We Christians, we are all brothers sisters in Christ, Love is most important, and I read that if you are perfect thrown the first stone. one is not allowed to knelt down in front of Holy Mother statue or our Father statue in church?
Mother, mother!

Proallen, my brother or sister in Christ, Catholics only worship God.
Peace be with you.
catholic.com/library/Saint_Worship.asp
catholic.com/library/Do_Catholics_Worship_Statues.asp

You show by what you do far more than what you say.

 

[twopekinguys]

I have been to Catholic Churches in 3 countries. The U.S., France and Italy. I’ve never seen anything like what is being described by Proallen.

LIke you, I have been in Catholic Churches in several countries. France, Italy, England, Ireland, Spain, Portugal, Mexico, Canada, Scotland, Germany, and the US of course, and I have never seen this behavior either.

 

[Proallen]

Proallen;6420195:

You’re kidding with this right? You realize those posts and answers are there for you and everyone else to see right?

And I’m glad of it!!

Tell me why they don’t support it. Just telling me they don’t support it isn’t really an answer, and in no way supports your position.

Those Scriptures DO NOT support or explain those views. Period! You cannot bend and mold Scripture to fit your points of view. This is what you are trying to do.

Proving you wrong with scripture, and the catechism is laughable, and shameful?

You cannot prove what you say by Scripture and your catechism isn’t Scriptural.

Well, first of all, Catholics don’t “petition” statues. It has been explained to you that statues merely represent the person, and what they stood for. They are reminders only.

Well I don’t give two hoots what you explained to me. These Catholics were praying out loud, kissing the staue and petitioning Mary for special favors. They were not asking her to pray to God for them. You don’t want to hear that do you???

It has been pointed out to you in the Catechism that idolatry is forbidden. You realize that there are over a billion Catholics right. The Church is not a police state. There are no church police to keep tabs on everyone. The church teaches and instructs. The Church trusts that with proper teaching that an individual will follow those teachings.
People from all walks of life and faiths speak out against the Holy Father. I don’t know of any in modern times that has been formally excommunicated. Maybe you can provide an example of who has.

Does the name Martin Luther sound familiar to you??

 

[Vile_Servant]

Assuming that Proallen is correct, that he saw people crawling on their hands and knees while praying, that is a sign of penance and humility, which God will not despise.

(2 Chronicles 33:19)
His prayer also, and his being heard and all his sins, and contempt, and places wherein he built high places, and set up groves, and statues before he did penance, are written in the words of Hozai.

(Psalms 102:17)
He hath had regard to the prayer of the humble: and he hath not despised their petition.

 

[twopekinguys]

These folks were kissing the statue while praying to it. One woman was crying incessantly. Forgive me for being so straight forward here, but I don’t see the point of asking questions when it is obvious what was going on. If anyone did that sort of thing in my church, they would be asked to leave and would only be allowed to return once they realized the idolotry they were committing. Intercessory prayer is perfectly fine and encouraged. What these people were doing had nothing to do with intercessory prayer. It was an abomination to God.

I have seen people kiss the feet of a sacred heart statue as a sign of reverance. (In a hispanic community), and I have seen people kiss the cruicifix as a sign of veneration at Good Friday, and I have seen people cry while praying. Usually that has been related to a serious event that happened, such as a death of a loved one.

Nonoe of what you are describing can automatically be called worship.

So, if someone in your church just lost a loved one, and was crying while holding a picture of that person, that would be considered idolatry and be asked to leave?

It would be the same thing that you saw in the Catholic church except the person would be holding a picture instead of a statue.

 

[twopekinguys]

twopekinguys;6420504:

Does the name Martin Luther sound familiar to you??

Much more than you can imagine. What’s your point?

In his sermon of August 15, 1522, the last time Martin Luther preached on the Feast of the Assumption, he stated:

There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know. And since the Holy Spirit has told us nothing about it, we can make of it no article of faith . . . It is enough to know that she lives in Christ.

The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart. (Sermon, September 1, 1522).

[She is the] highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ . . . She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough. Still honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to injure neither Christ nor the Scriptures. (Sermon, Christmas, 1531).

No woman is like you. You are more than Eve or Sarah, blessed above all nobility, wisdom, and sanctity. (Sermon, Feast of the Visitation, 1537).

One should honor Mary as she herself wished and as she expressed it in the Magnificat. She praised God for his deeds. How then can we praise her? The true honor of Mary is the honor of God, the praise of God’s grace . . . Mary is nothing for the sake of herself, but for the sake of Christ . . . Mary does not wish that we come to her, but through her to God. (Explanation of the Magnificat, 1521).
davidmacd.com/catholic/martin_luther_on_mary.htm

 

[Vile_Servant]

That’s not what they are doing. They were petitioning Mary to do favors for them. They were not asking Mary to pray for them. They were praying out loud.

Ok, so they were praying to Mary;

“Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you, blessed are you among women,
and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.”

In what way were they not asking Mary to pray for them?

 

[T_More]

Ok, so they were praying to Mary;

"Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you, blessed are you among women,
and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death."

In what way were they not asking Mary to pray for them?

Not to mention that the first part is Scripture.

 

[twopekinguys]

twopekinguys;6420504:

Originally Posted by Proallen

Quote:
You’re kidding with this right? You realize those posts and answers are there for you and everyone else to see right?

And I’m glad of it!! Now that’s a snappy comeback.

Quote:
Tell me why they don’t support it. Just telling me they don’t support it isn’t really an answer, and in no way supports your position.

Those Scriptures DO NOT support or explain those views. Period! You cannot bend and mold Scripture to fit your points of view. This is what you are trying to do.

How are we bending and trying to mold them? How do they not support what you have been told? Are we supposed to take your word for it because you say so? Sorry, no dice.

Quote:
Proving you wrong with scripture, and the catechism is laughable, and shameful?

You cannot prove what you say by Scripture and your catechism isn’t Scriptural.

Well, I hate to break it to you, but it is. Maybe you should try looking at some of the footnotes. By the way, we did prove it with scripture. It is up to you to prove how the scriptures used were wrong or misinterpreted. Oh wait, we’re supposed to just take your word for it.

Quote:
Well, first of all, Catholics don’t “petition” statues. It has been explained to you that statues merely represent the person, and what they stood for. They are reminders only.

Well I don’t give two hoots what you explained to me. These Catholics were praying out loud, kissing the staue and petitioning Mary for special favors. They were not asking her to pray to God for them. You don’t want to hear that do you???

Of course you don’t give two hoots. Because you’ve been proven wrong, and you’re grasping at straws. I also find it interesting how just now we are hearing that they were praying out loud. You couldn’t have mentioned that earlier? What were they saying? I want to hear the facts, and not your assumptions. but you don’t want to hear that now do you?
Quote:
It has been pointed out to you in the Catechism that idolatry is forbidden. You realize that there are over a billion Catholics right. The Church is not a police state. There are no church police to keep tabs on everyone. The church teaches and instructs. The Church trusts that with proper teaching that an individual will follow those teachings.
People from all walks of life and faiths speak out against the Holy Father. I don’t know of any in modern times that has been formally excommunicated. Maybe you can provide an example of who has. Still waiting for one of your examples here.
:

 

[adstrinity]

They will excommunicate for speaking against Holy Father

ROTFL!This has NEVER happened!!! EVER! Show ANY document where this was the reason for an excommunication. We are ALWAYS allowed to speak against the Holy Father and still be good practicing Catholics. Disagreeing with the Pope does not mean we are cut off from the Sacraments

Assuming that Proallen is correct, that he saw people crawling on their hands and knees while praying, that is a sign of penance and humility, which God will not despise.

(2 Chronicles 33:19)
His prayer also, and his being heard and all his sins, and contempt, and places wherein he built high places, and set up groves, and statues before he did penance, are written in the words of Hozai.

(Psalms 102:17)
He hath had regard to the prayer of the humble: and he hath not despised their petition.

So, Proallen is griping about people following what God says? Proallen is upset that Catholics are Biblically worshiping God?

 

[asmrbd]

What Mary did was very special, in all of history. She was a virgin because her conception was by the Holy Spirit, showing she was not with man. So she is blessed among women to bring our Saviour.

She referred to her Saviour in Luke 1:47. Then she praises the Son. All honor and glory to the Son, because he gave all for our salvation. 100%. Note there is one mediator…
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Use him freely.

We can go straight to God and Jesus freely, no one has to “pursuade” God and influence him. God is perfect and already knows our thoughts. Consider that Satan is not om(name removed by moderator)resent, therefore Mary probably can’t handle all the prayers she receives.

BTW, Jesus was born of flesh, and being God, he is already perfect and he does not need a sinless mother to deliver him. To think such infers that God could be tainted. I think not. The Holy Spirit testifies to us of Jesus. The angel said you “shall” conceive, so her acknowledgement was a given.

There is only one sinless, and he is God. For a human to be sinless makes them equal with God. For ALL have sinned and there is none righteous, no NOT ONE.

It all about Jesus and his blood that bought us. Oh the precious blood of the Lamb. With him you need no other or thing. These comments will help you understand the protestant beliefs. As the song goes, all I have is Jesus, all I need is Jesus.