Mother Miriam on EWTN states that women should not be in the Sanctuary

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TheLittleLady said:
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Lenny:
Woman as victims goes back to the Frankfurt school in Germany, in the early part of the Century. These cultural Marxists used this tactic to destroy the traditional family and it has been largely successful
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These terms point to a specific political belief that is troubling to use in a discussion about the Church. “Cultural Marxism” was coined by Lyndon Larouche in the late 20th century, it is a specific conspiracy theory that ought be relegated to political debates.
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https://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/27...out-cultural-marxism-doesnt-mean-it-isnt-real
 
True

This is a religious/theological discussion.

Why pollute it with politics.
 
She must live in area where more of the laity, specially men, are more involved. In many areas, including my own parish, we have an aged population. Most of the laity who help in the parish are the widows. The idea that parishes across the nation have the human resources to do as she says is naive.
 
I live in a parish where the vast majority who serve are men.

They do a great job.
 
Dragging politics into a religious/theological discussion seems to divert it from God to politicians.
 
Sarcelle said:
I live in a parish where the vast majority who serve are men.

They do a great job.
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That is why in thinking in black and white terms doesn’t work. To think all parishes are the same in their makeup is superficial.
 
tomarin said:
Are women ritually impure or something?
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No. We’re not Jewish. But here is an explanation of how the Jews understood ritual purity and impurity. Even men could be ritually impure.

" PURITY AND IMPURITY, RITUAL (Heb. וְטָהֳרָה טֻמְאָה, tumah ve-toharah ), a symbolic system according to which a pure person or object is qualified for contact with the Temple and related sancta (holy objects and spaces) while an impure person or object is disqualified from such contact. Ritual impurity arises from physical substances and states associated with procreation and death, not in themselves sinful."

"While there is no theoretical definition of purity and impurity in the Bible, its function and symbolism can be readily deduced from the antithetical relationship between impurity and holiness (Lev. 11:43–47). Only God is inherently holy. Things that are non-holy, or common, may acquire holiness by being brought into God’s realm (being sanctified or consecrated). The realm of the common is subject to two possible states connoting compatibility and incompatibility with holiness: purity and impurity. Under normal circumstances, common objects are pure and compatible with the holy. However, contact with certain sources of ritual impurity will defile common objects and render them incompatible with the holy."

" Many scholars have noted that the physical substances and states labeled impure, and thus deemed to be anathema to God, are associated with death and procreation. The God of the Hebrew Bible does not die and does not have sexual relations. These are characteristic of humans. To be eligible to approach the sanctuary, God’s residence among the Israelites, humans must separate from that which makes them least God-like: death and procreation. The ritual purity laws requiring separation from sources of impurity are thus essential to the frequent priestly exhortation to be like God ( imitatio dei ) and to strive for holiness."

Both women and men could become ritually impure (unclean) from genital secretions and would need to perform specific rituals or allow a certain distance of time to achieve ritual purity again. You can read more here

https://www.encyclopedia.com/religi...anscripts-and-maps/purity-and-impurity-ritual
 
Thanks - I didn’t know Jews had a concept of ritual impurity - but how does this relate to the Mother Miriam comments, if at all?
 
Reading through some of these comments in this thread are a little surprising. Women unclean or unfit, forbidden to enter the Church…

Lectors in the past were considered part of the minor orders for men. It was to hopefully lead young men to consider the priesthood.

It is about roles not inferiority or superiority.
 
tomarin said:
but how does this relate to the Mother Miriam comments, if at all?
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It doesn’t really but apparently from the questions about women being unclean or ritually impure, there is some misinformation in people’s understanding of the issue. The bottom line is that it is Mother Miriam’s opinion that the tradition of having only men in the sanctuary during Mass should be preserved. The Church does strongly encourage the upholding of this tradition in order to foster vocations. It’s not a judgement against women but rather a prudential matter of priestly vocations. That’s it. There’s no other reason.

There is the theology of Christ being the head of the Church and in keeping with that symbolism, it is more fitting for men to represent Him but it seems that the Church permits women to serve in liturgical ministries because the priest is already there In Persona Christi.
 
I never said anything about inferior or superior.

I can understand the case for only male lectors. We’re not talking about just lectors.

We’re talking about the sanctuary and the presence of women even as non-lectors.

For example are only men allowed to clean and change the linens in the altar? Sweep and dust around the area? Are these jobs only for altar boys or male altar servers when it takes place in the sanctuary?

If so what is the reason? I have made a guess and tied the reason to Jewish ritual purity laws.

Am I correct though?
 
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The male sex is still the default setting for people who serve on the altar, so there shouldn’t be anything surprising about Mother Miriam’s opinion. Many dioceses in the world allow female altar servers but many do not. Altar serving was conventionally used as a preparatory stage for the ordained priesthood.

My own personal sentiment dislikes the idea of girls not being able to serve, but the will of the Church is supreme.
 
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So this practice is part of a tradition to foster vocations?

Okay, I get it now.
 
Sarcelle said:
We’re talking about the sanctuary and the presence of women even as non-lectors.

For example are only men allowed to clean and change the linens in the altar? Sweep and dust around the area? Are these jobs only for altar boys or male altar servers when it takes place in the sanctuary?

If so what is the reason?
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So from what I understand when there were more males as lectors and filling other minor orders there were more males to care for the sanctuary. Women cleaned the linens but it was part of the minor orders responsibility to care for the sanctuary.

I do not believe it has anything to do with purity as far as women being unclean but it was more like an apprenticeship for young men. It was a way for men to work their way up through the orders to the priesthood. Only men can be priests and deacons, so men should be the ones chosen to fill the minor orders also.
 
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MagdalenaRita said:
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Sarcelle:
We’re talking about the sanctuary and the presence of women even as non-lectors.

For example are only men allowed to clean and change the linens in the altar? Sweep and dust around the area? Are these jobs only for altar boys or male altar servers when it takes place in the sanctuary?

If so what is the reason?
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So from what I understand when there were more males as lectures and filling other minor orders there were more males to care for the sanctuary. Women cleaned the linens but it was part of the minor orders responsibility to care for the sanctuary.

I do not believe it has anything to do with purity as far as women being unclean but it was more like an apprenticeship for young men. It was a way for men to work their way up through the orders to the priesthood. Only men can be priests and deacons, so men should be the ones chosen to fill the minor orders also.
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Most parishes would not have had lectors and acolytes (minor orders) unless they had parishioners in the seminary returning home on holidays. So, because of that, young boys served at the altar.
 
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