Mother Miriam on EWTN states that women should not be in the Sanctuary

[Diaconia]

I lived in two different states, in two different dioceses, that belong to two different provinces during that 70 - 85-ish time frame.

In both cases women read from the regular ambo, just like men.

When I was a seminarian, and happened to be visiting Lincoln; I asked the priest what the other lectern was for. He said is was for women to read from, outside of the sanctuary. He then invited me to serve as the Lector at Mass, and told me to read from the ambo, because I was a man. I was not then, an instituted Lector or Acolyte, but was in the seminary for another diocese. That’s my own personal experience, and the only time I’ve ever noticed in a church a special reading place designated for women.

@Jen95 - Pope St. John Paul II declared that the Church does not possess authority to ordain women, as this choice was made by Christ our True God.

Since the Church allows women to serve as readers (including commentators), and cantors, and girls to serve as altar servers obviously they need access to the sanctuary. Since EMsHC, readers, and servers can all be female, they should be treated just the same as their male counterparts.

Deacon Christopher

 

[Diaconia]

I thought about mentioning our Eastern theology and praxis, but I don’t believe Mother Miriam was speaking about that, I think her comments were directed to the Western Church.

Since we do not have anything like EMHC, and the readers do not proclaim Scripture from the Holy Place, and girls cannot be servers there is no practical reason for women to enter the Holy Place, and of course, it is not allowed accordingly.

So, I didn’t think it analogous to bring up: in the West, servers, readers, cantors and EMsHC all need access to the sanctuary in the performance of their ministries. But our theology and praxis may be interesting to Western Catholics, so I am glad you mentioned it.

In our little Temple, women do regularly enter the deacon doors to get to the sacristy, the candles, and to speak to the clergy (before or after Divine Liturgy). There isn’t a side door to access those areas.

Deacon Christopher

PS: Our new priest arrived from Ukraine during Christmas, and our bishop came and installed him this last Sunday. It was a wonderful Christmastide meeting both of them.

 

[Sarcelle]

Wrong analogy.

Women may be compete separately but they are not forbidden to enter the competition itself.

Speaking of which what exactly do women have that renders them unfit to be in the sanctuary?

I am talking the difference between lay men and lay women in terms of fitness to be in the sanctuary.

I have asked this question before and I have never gotten an answer.

 

[whatistrue]

Do @whatistrue and @Diaconia think the church is mistaken to reserve the ministerial priesthood

My only opinion on reserving the ministerial priesthood to males is that the Church has determined that God wanted it that way, and the Church has that authority. We must also keep in mind that male only priesthood is doctrine (maybe dogma - not sure) and women in the Sanctuary or not is discipline.

And I did not say the Church saw women as inferior, but that I do believe that enough individuals in the Church leadership did for it to be seen as the norm at the time.

 

[Lenny]

Women may be compete separately but they are not forbidden to enter the competition itself.

Women are not forbidden to enter the Church

Speaking of which what exactly do women have that renders them unfit to be in the sanctuary?

unfit -->your words different -->mine. Maybe one reason? Look at the long game here. Woman as victims goes back to the Frankfurt school in Germany, in the early part of the Century. These cultural Marxists used this tactic to destroy the traditional family and it has been largely successful.

I am talking the difference between lay men and lay women in terms of fitness to be in the sanctuary.

Well we can look at one difference. The ability to form speech in the brain is more developed in women vs. men. If I had raised our children without my wife, they would be deficient in the language due to my not speaking to them as my wife would. A difference that clearly aids in the formation of children. On the same note, this is why women should not speak in Church. When I arrive at mass to pray, typically I see woman chattering before mass.

We are different but equal. Created with different abilities in order to compliment each other.

 

[Sarcelle]

You still did not answer my question.

Instead you talk about women being victims and cultural Marxism and women being chatty.

A whole lot of talk but all of it never addressed my question directly.

 

[whatistrue]

Women are not forbidden to enter the Church

But you want to forbid them to enter the Sanctuary. Kind of like saying it is OK for them to enter the stadium, but not the field.

The ability to form speech in the brain is more developed in women vs. men.

Evidence?

When I arrive at mass to pray, typically I see woman chattering before mass.

And I see men doing the same. Your point?

 

[acanonlawyer]

Curious why lay women weren’t allowed all the same roles as lay men from 1970-1983 (roughly).

The practical answer is that the law in force during those years said that women were not allowed in the sanctuary. It wasn’t stated in those terms, as I recall, but more along the lines of “if there are no men who can serve, a woman can say the responses (that a server would say) but only from a distance and not from within the sanctuary.” Something like that (going from memory). This was in the 1917 Code of Canon Law but not in the 1983 Code. For those years after Vatican II when things started changing, but still during the life of the 1917 Code, various “work-arounds” were put in place so that at least the letter of the law was still followed.

The thinking behind this regulation goes back, I would say, to the Old Testament rules about who could enter the tabernacle/temple.

Dan

 

[Sarcelle]

The thinking behind this regulation goes back, I would say, to the Old Testament rules about who could enter the tabernacle/temple.

I suspect as much.

Wasn’t there a time when women who were menstruating or have just given birth forbidden to attend mass?

The whole unclean aspect?

So women are inherently unclean and therefore forbidden in the sanctuary?

 

[EndTimes]

So what is different about women that makes them unfit to be in the sanctuary?

Ask your local priest if you have one…

Any Catholic women who very deeply oppose Catholic Teachings .
Could? or Should? consider leaving?

 

[Sarcelle]

I am merely asking a question here.

I was never answered directly so clearly I cannot disagree or agree with a nonexistent answer.

 

[Nik]

Wow. Just wow.

That is seriously your response to someone asking why some people see women as unclean/ unfit to be in the sanctuary?

 

[Sarcelle]

Any Catholic women who very deeply oppose Catholic Teachings .
Could? or Should? consider leaving?

Where did I say that I oppose Catholic teaching? I was never given an answer in the first place.

I am merely asking a question that was never answered and now you say I should consider leaving?

Asking is not opposing.

 

[EndTimes]

That is seriously your response to someone asking why some people see women as unclean/ unfit to be in the sanctuary?

You’re the one raising the notion of unclean and unfit…

I’m merely speaking of any who still nudge to become, for instance - ordained priests.

I should’ve been clearer…

)

 

[EndTimes]

Where did I say that I oppose Catholic teaching? I was never given answer in the first plac

I never said You did… You took my comment personally.

 

[acanonlawyer]

Wasn’t there a time when women who were menstruating or have just given birth forbidden to attend mass?

I’ve never heard of that before.

The whole unclean aspect?

Well, “unclean” is a loaded term but I think (I could be wrong about this, as I am not a Jewish lawyer) that notion is what was behind the Old Testament practices.

So women are inherently unclean and therefore forbidden in the sanctuary?

That is not how I would say it. Instead, I would draw a distinction between the time of Mass and the time when nothing is going on in the church’s sanctuary. Outside of Mass, women, as far as I know, were regularly in sanctuaries taking care of what needed to be done there. So, there wasn’t a “you are inherently unclean and so can never enter here” perspective.

Dan

 

[tomarin]

That’s precisely the question I would like to know the answer to, if only out of curiosity. Are women ritually impure or something?

 

[Elizabeth3]

Speaking of which what exactly do women have that renders them unfit to be in the sanctuary?

Nothing, now that there are liturgical roles open to them.

If you are speaking about the EF before Vatican II, women didn’t have any liturgical roles so they didn’t have any reason to be in the sanctuary during Mass. It was priests, deacons and seminarians installed into the minor orders of acolyte and lectors. Lay men generally weren’t in the sanctuary either, although I’m not clear on if they would be called on to serve in the absence of those in the minor orders. Women often were in the sanctuary outside of Mass serving through the Altar Society, for example.

 

[TheLittleLady]

Woman as victims goes back to the Frankfurt school in Germany, in the early part of the Century. These cultural Marxists used this tactic to destroy the traditional family and it has been largely successful

These terms point to a specific political belief that is troubling to use in a discussion about the Church. “Cultural Marxism” was coined by Lyndon Larouche in the late 20th century, it is a specific conspiracy theory that ought be relegated to political debates.

 

[Sarcelle]

I got curious with regards to women not attending mass after giving birth.

I looked it up and found out that the mass obligation for women who have just given birth was lifted and so were the required fasts.

This was to give women a rest after giving birth.

I think she had several weeks with which to rest and recuperate.

I have heard stories of barring the doors of the church to menstruating women. However I have heard this happens with the Orthodox churches.

As for the Catholic church, I have read that menstruating women are barred from partaking in the Eucharist. This practice was abolished after 1916.