Mother Miriam on EWTN states that women should not be in the Sanctuary

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I hear you on the apolostolic tradition. However St. Paul also instructed a slave to return to his master. This could be seen in any number of ways. I’ve heard it argued from about five different angles by theologians. I don’t think many of us would say “slavery is there and a great saint said go back to your master…therefore we should maintain the tradition”. There is letter if the law, spirit if the law, and context all at play.
 
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Servant31 said:
I don’t think many of us would say “slavery is there and a great saint said go back to your master…therefore we should maintain the tradition”.
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Conditions for employment can change. The nature of man versus woman however, has not and cannot change.
 
Bill_B_NY said:
I hear you on the apolostolic tradition. However St. Paul also instructed a slave to return to his master. This could be seen in any number of ways. I’ve heard it argued from about five different angles by theologians. I don’t think many of us would say “slavery is there and a great saint said go back to your master…therefore we should maintain the tradition”. There is letter if the law, spirit if the law, and context all at play.
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I dont think it’s an issue of man vs woman in nature though. It’s an issue of role and assignment. And who assigns it.

I’ve heard it stated many times that Jesus did this therefore it means that that that and that. We are extrapolating when we do this. This is open to interpretation. Jesus also lived in a specific time. Let’s not forget that He removed some of the Jewish traditions, at the exacerbation of the religious authorities of the time.

Slavery in isn’t an issue of employment, it’s an issue of dignity. (The context of what St. Paul said could be argued from many angles however). Historically women haven’t had the right to vote until later in the process than men. That’s not a role issue that’s an issue of rights and dignity. So while I agree there are differences in men and women, I don’t see how we can draw definitive lines limiting their roles in perpetuity this broadly.
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Back to the original topic. I don’t quite understand the hubbub here. Mother Miriam basically sees things through the same lens that Mother Angelica did. There’s no question about it, that if Mother Angelica were alive today, she would wholeheartedly agree with Mother Miriam. Just watch Mass on EWTN. No women to be seen in the Sanctuary. No altar girls, no women readers, no participation from women at or around the altar in any way, shape or form. The only women to be seen are those in the choir.
 
Servant31 said:
So while I agree there are differences in men and women, I don’t see how we can draw definitive lines limiting their roles in perpetuity this broadly.
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I understand your view. You think there is some difference between men and women, so that’s good. Beyond that, I don’t think I can go much farther. You have been taught certain things and you believe them. Who taught you and what authority did they have? We don’t know but you accepted it. If I come along and tell you something different than what you believe, based on whatever authority you believe it, then you won’t accept it.

For example, if I said that I do not believe that women should have the right to vote, I don’t think you’d be open to that point of view.
 
Many contemplative women’s orders are the same. They are very holy, intelligent, knowledgeable and capable women. But they do not serve at Mass or even do readings. It’s all for the priests or religious brothers.
 
Yeah I hear your point. I think we can charitably disagree here. Points to be made on both sides. Best regards, happy new year!
 
Oh yes, most definitely. In the context of slavery and “owning” another human being as property those conditions do change in history, and for the better as time has progressed. St. Paul was clearly speaking in context with his time period, and as you said it can used in many ways for teaching today. Women Serving and slavery however, are of two different things. We are talking about the rights And dignity of a human being created in the image and likeness of God, and then an exception that has been abused. One of the faults of Eve from the very beginning that was passed down(along with things such as pain in childbirth etc.) is the desire to usurp the rightful authoritative role of men in the world. We see this pushed in modern “entertainment” today especially, where you have the wife running the life of the family and making the tough decisions after having worked all day at the firm and the husband is just a bumbling idiot. The rise of modernism, feminism and “equality” that are being rammed down the throats of nearly everyone today is very telling of this. You are kidding yourself if you think this hasn’t snuck it’s way into the church. That’s why we have the people screaming for women deacons and priests. They want “equality”. That’s why women are serving in roles they have never served in before, roles that only men occupied. It started with altar servers, and has progressed to these higher demands.

Now I’m not saying women are lesser, or not as important, or are malicious, or anything like that. Women have played VERY important roles in the history of the church before and after Christ. Women play very important roles in our everyday lives. They raise good catholic families, take care of loving homes where charity and joy abound, and help to give the church her future. They also live the religious life praying for, and helping to support the priesthood so they can continue Christ’s work on earth.
 
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It looks like that church is dedicated to the Holy Trinity because the patronal icon looks like the “Hospitality of Abraham” icon.
 
Lenny said:
She follows this up by saying that the fruits of this are what we see in the amazon synod where women are now being elevated to positions of deaconess outside of any orders from the Holy see
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The Amazon Synod … was and remains very problematic
in spite of expected attempts by those involved and connected with its setup
who try to paint it as being: Wonderful and Problems Free…

A connected problem re: some women have been the decades of influences by radical feminism.
 
When I was little, my late father and another gentleman took turns reading the Epistle in English and two other gentlemen took turns reading it in Ukrainian. (All deceased for some years.)

Later the altar boys (my brother was one) would read the Epistle. My brother and another boy were almost always chosen to read the Epistle because they had good voices.

I am the lay cantor in my parish now because both of our cantors passed away and none of the men in our parish stepped up to take their places.
Some of the men will read the Epistle; others don’t want to. If none of the men who are “regular readers” (for lack of a better term), show up at Liturgy, then yours truly has to do it (especially during the Great Fast at Presanctified Liturgy). If one of the “regular readers” shows up at Presanctified Liturgy, then I give the Epistle to him. Very rarely do I read at Saturday evening or Sunday Divine Liturgy because the men usually show up. It’s during the Great Fast and on the Holy Days that I might end up reading the Epistle (Thank You, dear Lord, for Roman reading the Epistle today.🙏) I can’t do everything.

FWIW, here’s my take on the priesthood:

God created Adam and Eve equal but Adam was still the head (51/49 split shall we say). When our first parents sinned, the harmony between them was disrupted. Eve was subject to Adam (think of a pair of ⚖️ out of balance like 80/20). When God exalted Our Lady to the dignity of the Divine Maternity and Our Lord ordained the Apostles to the priesthood (technically bishops because they had the fullness of the priesthood of Christ), the ⚖️ were back in balance again (51/49 again).

Our Lord said in St. Mark 10:

[42] But Jesus calling them, saith to them: You know that they who seem to rule over the Gentiles, lord it over them: and their princes have power over them. [43] But it is not so among you: but whosoever will be greater, shall be your minister. [44] And whosoever will be first among you, shall be the servant of all. [45] For the Son of man also is not come to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a redemption for many.

N.B. One of the papal titles is "Servant of the Servants of God. Mark 10:44 is the origin of that title.

This is how the balance is rectified. Women (who still dominate the “service industries” e.g. nursing, waitresses etc) will now be served by men. Men (who still “lord it over” the rest of the world) are now called to serve. To allow women to the priesthood (the diaconate is part of it since it is the lowest degree of Holy Orders) would be to throw the ⚖️ way out of balance again.

Mother Angelica (eternal memory!) was dead-set against women in the priesthood. If she were alive today, she’d throw an anathema sit against these liberals who want to tear the Church apart.
 
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TheLittleLady said:
This was my point. The claim was that this IS currently occuring.
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I neither heard of any evidence of that, nor even heard the claim made outside of this thread . . . so far it seems to be a “they’re bad, so they must be doing this horrible thing, because that’s what villains do.” type of thing . . . (hmm, kind of like contemporary US politics . . .)
 
Traddy1962 said:
One of the faults of Eve from the very beginning that was passed down(along with things such as pain in childbirth etc.) is the desire to usurp the rightful authoritative role of men in the world.
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Eve didn’t desire to go against Adam, but God. The assumption that Eve wanted to be more powerful than Adam is a misunderstanding. She convinced Adam to eat the fruit so he would become ‘free’ like her.

Also, one would have to prove that being on the sanctuary is the rightful authoritative role of men.
Traddy1962 said:
That’s why women are serving in roles they have never served in before, roles that only men occupied. It started with altar servers, and has progressed to these higher demands.
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It would be wrong to assume that all of these changes would be inherently bad. Also, the Church has the authority to say yes to altar servers, never to female priests. So it seems that the slippery slope argument remains a fallacy.
Traddy1962 said:
Now I’m not saying women are lesser, or not as important, or are malicious, or anything like that
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I don’t think you are, but today’s misogynists, racists etc all start off by saying something like this. So such statements don’t hold weight if it is followed by something else.
Traddy1962 said:
Women have played VERY important roles in the history of the church before and after Christ. Women play very important roles in our everyday lives. They raise good catholic families, take care of loving homes where charity and joy abound, and help to give the church her future. They also live the religious life praying for, and helping to support the priesthood so they can continue Christ’s work on earth
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Women can contribute more besides being mothers or nuns. The idea that women shouldn’t be on the sanctuary at all just tells me that people would rather women work in the background (usually the heavy lifting of parish life) instead of being at the forefront because of some misunderstood view of gender roles, imo.

I don’t see why a lay woman and a lay man are differentiated in this context. A lay man doesn’t have more authority than a lay woman in general.
 
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I think women should be encouraged to participate to the fullest extent the church permits.
 
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