H
Huguenot
Guest
I do, but they are here with me …not in Heaven …
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R
Rustyxcv
Guest
Hello again Everyone!
Wow, I step away from the string for a couple of days and ALL kinds of things have come up (and come up again for the 2nd, 3rd, & 4th times – LOL! ).
Huguenot, I notice that every time someone brings up Christ’s words to Mary and to John as He was on the Cross that you have responded twice now that Jesus was just telling John to take care of Mary. It looks to me like you keep leaving half of Our Lord’s saying out. He told Mary that John now becomes her son and told John that Mary now becomes his mother.
– Of course, what He said only literally applies to the two of them individually. But we apply SO much (ALL?) of what Jesus said to particular individuals in 1st century Judaea to our own present situations, might we not find a universal application for this (DOUBLE) saying also? John, the Beloved Disciple, is interpreted by the Church to be a type of the individual believer, or of all believers. He is here instructed by Jesus to look after and to LOOK TO (for advice, guidance, help, etc.) Mary as his mother.
We can do the same.
– Blessings on all! --Rusty
Wow, I step away from the string for a couple of days and ALL kinds of things have come up (and come up again for the 2nd, 3rd, & 4th times – LOL! ).
Huguenot, I notice that every time someone brings up Christ’s words to Mary and to John as He was on the Cross that you have responded twice now that Jesus was just telling John to take care of Mary. It looks to me like you keep leaving half of Our Lord’s saying out. He told Mary that John now becomes her son and told John that Mary now becomes his mother.
– Of course, what He said only literally applies to the two of them individually. But we apply SO much (ALL?) of what Jesus said to particular individuals in 1st century Judaea to our own present situations, might we not find a universal application for this (DOUBLE) saying also? John, the Beloved Disciple, is interpreted by the Church to be a type of the individual believer, or of all believers. He is here instructed by Jesus to look after and to LOOK TO (for advice, guidance, help, etc.) Mary as his mother.
We can do the same.
– Blessings on all! --Rusty
R
Rustyxcv
Guest
Greetings again–
This discussion, though at times it seems to go nowhere (except around . . . and around . . . and around again - lol!), has helped a great deal for me to clarify my own thinking and to gain a fuller understanding of the Church’s teaching.
– The other night, as I was praying and meditating, I realized that since Jesus is God, and Mary is His Mother, effectively making her the mother of God; that there is no true Christian Church without the Mother of God. Now mind you, they may not call her that and they may not observe the same kind of devotional practices that we Catholics do, but IF it is a true Christian community and part of the Body of Christ then the REALITY of Mary as Mother of God must be securely present in the group’s theology and spirituality.
– Blessing to all! --Rusty
This discussion, though at times it seems to go nowhere (except around . . . and around . . . and around again - lol!), has helped a great deal for me to clarify my own thinking and to gain a fuller understanding of the Church’s teaching.
– The other night, as I was praying and meditating, I realized that since Jesus is God, and Mary is His Mother, effectively making her the mother of God; that there is no true Christian Church without the Mother of God. Now mind you, they may not call her that and they may not observe the same kind of devotional practices that we Catholics do, but IF it is a true Christian community and part of the Body of Christ then the REALITY of Mary as Mother of God must be securely present in the group’s theology and spirituality.
– Blessing to all! --Rusty
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mercygate
Guest
That’s a very useful way to think about the Body of Christ, about the family we become in Him. So then, the Methodists, Episcopalians, Lutherans and Presbyterians (who all “get it” about "Mother of God) are all “in”! Cool.
J
joshua_b
Guest
That is our entire point. As Catholics, it matters not whether a person is in Heaven or on earth, because Jesus conquered death, and being in Heaven in NO WAY separates us. And in answer to your question, no it is absolutely no problem at all to pray directly to God, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with asking for a little help either, even if the person youre asking isnt here on earth anymore. Perhaps the hang up is that you’re equating prayer with worship. There is a very distinct difference between the two.I do, but they are here with me …not in Heaven …
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Makaveli
Guest
Yeah, saying that Mary is a Godess is not only ridiculous but also absurd! I dont know if that is considered blasphemy, but Ithink you need to read Luke 1:39-45, and that should answer your questions about Mary.
K
Kitty_Chan
Guest
A thought is Mary was faithful and trusting of God, she did what not many of us would have. Was it because she had no sin or just alot of childlike faith. (not childish) certainly there have been others that have stepped “out on a limb” for Christ.
Another thought about Mary being a traffic cop and directing you to Christ is
isnt that the Holy Spirts work??
Another thought about Mary being a traffic cop and directing you to Christ is
isnt that the Holy Spirts work??
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Makaveli
Guest
Obviously you dont know what you are talking about. Let me instruct you. Take into consideration the Holy Land, honor that place and tourist feel a profound reverance because there was born the Savior of the worl. The Hoy Shroud has been a object of special honor as the cloth wrapped Chirst’s body in the tomb. If lifeless places and objects can claim so much reverence, with how much more veneration would we approach the living persons who were associated with Christ? Important as those things were, they fall into significance in comparison to Mary.
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Makaveli
Guest
Catholics believe that Mary is sinless, based on Luke 1:28, where she is described as the “favored one,” or “full of grace.”
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Makaveli
Guest
We pray for one another as Christians, thus acting - in a sense - as mediators. The saints who have died are included in this process, since they are more alive than we are, as is evident in their activities in the book of Revelation; and Mary is the supreme saint. Jesus is the “chief” Sheperd of his flock (Jn 10:11-16), yet he assigns lesser sheperds to watch over his own (Jn 21:15-17; Eph 4-11). Several biblical passages indicate a sort of mediatorship among believer (1 Cor 9-22; Eph 3:2; 1 Tm 4-16) and our working together with God (1 Cor 3-9; 2 Cor 6-1).
H
Huguenot
Guest
Well , anyway, I’ve known for about 5 years that for the Pope I don’t belong to a real “church” but to an “ecclesial community” : that’s what is written in Dominus Iesus …That’s a very useful way to think about the Body of Christ, about the family we become in Him. So then, the Methodists, Episcopalians, Lutherans and Presbyterians (who all “get it” about "Mother of God) are all “in”! Cool.
So for me the fact that I don’t accept the concept of “Mother of God” doesn’t change anything in this respect …
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Huguenot
Guest
Kitty Chan:
I think it IS the Holy Spirit’s work…
H
Huguenot
Guest
Yes, for me prayer is a part of worship …
H
Huguenot
Guest
I haven’t expressed myself correctly and you’re right when you say that John became Mary’s son , and she became his mother ( “look after” is too “weak”, in fact your words correspond more to my ideas than the words I used ), but for me it still doesn’t mean that she is the mother of all believers ; it’s true that it is sometimes difficult to know if some passages only apply to a particular person ( which is the case here …for me at least ! ) or a particular situation, or to all Christians, everywhere, anytime …
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mercygate
Guest
Makaveli said:
Oi. What an embarrassing opener. Your profile says you’re 18: old enough to know better. As Catholics on this forum, we are the “hosts” and owe it to our guests and to our Lord to show them cordial hospitality.
If one were to respond to you in kind, one might say, “Obviously you don’t know the first rule of apologetics. Let me instruct you. Rule number one is to respect the person you are addressing.” But of course, that would break the first rule of apologetics.
If people “knew what they were talking about” they wouldn’t be asking the questions.
M
mercygate
Guest
It is for us also. But it is not the essence of worship. In the context of Scripture, worship means “service” and in the religious context, it means sacrifice. The whole purpose of the Temple (both Solomon’s temple of Christ’s Person) is sacrifice. “Worship” which does not include sacrifice is not truly worship.
If you read the negotiations between Moses and Pharaoh about letting the Israelites leave Egypt, it is clear (and Cardinal Ratzinger elucidates this beautifully in his book, The Spirit of the Liturgy) that “serving” God involved sacrifice. Even synagogue worship during the exile was oriented towards the Temple.
H
Huguenot
Guest
So when you pray at home it isn’t worship ? for me it is …
As for the sacrifice, what sacrifice could we offer now that the perfect sacrifice has already been offered to God when Jesus died on the cross ???
H
Huguenot
Guest
Do you mean that somebody who doesn’t consider Mary as God’s mother can’t be saved?
That’s not what I see in the Bible …
If somebody repents of his sins and believes in Jesus ( “that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have eternal life”, John 3 : 16 ), he is added to God’s family, he / she becomes a child of God ( see the beginning of John’s Gospel, I don’t know it exactly in English : to those who have believed He has given the power of becoming children of God, it must sound something like that …) and then he / she is a member of the universal church …
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Rustyxcv
Guest
Huguenot and all, GREETINGS!
Now H., don’t go setting up a straw man here. As it says in Scripture, Christ is the only righteous judge of who is “saved” and “not saved.” (I put the terms in quotes because I suspect that you are using the terms in the Evangelical mode of speaking which is very different from the Catholic way of speaking of and conceiving of Salvation.) Remember that I have also VERY EXPLICITLY stated that a true Christian believes in the REALITY of what we Catholics call the Mother of God, but that not every Christian uses the same language.
All true Christians believe that Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of God, incarnate in the flesh from before His birth, and born of the Virgin Mary. We Catholics CALL Mary the Mother of God. Other Christians call her the Mother of the Son of God, or the Mother of God the Son, or the “Mother of the Human Nature of the Second Person of the Holy Trinity perfectly undivided from His Divine Nature.” Call me stupid, if you like, but somehow “Mother of God” just seems simpler and easier (since we Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans, and Episcopalians, all know exactly what it means–and are willing to take UNENDING miles of blog string to explain to those who don’t understand over … and over … and over again).
Of course, we Catholics call Mary MANY other things as well, none of which are explicitly ascribed to her in Scripture, for example, Star of the Sea, Queen of Martyrs, Help of Christians. we could start a new blog string and spend hours and hours posting with regard to the nature and virtues of each and every one of her more than 50 titles. Sounds like fun, eh???
— Blessings to all! --Rusty
Now H., don’t go setting up a straw man here. As it says in Scripture, Christ is the only righteous judge of who is “saved” and “not saved.” (I put the terms in quotes because I suspect that you are using the terms in the Evangelical mode of speaking which is very different from the Catholic way of speaking of and conceiving of Salvation.) Remember that I have also VERY EXPLICITLY stated that a true Christian believes in the REALITY of what we Catholics call the Mother of God, but that not every Christian uses the same language.
All true Christians believe that Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of God, incarnate in the flesh from before His birth, and born of the Virgin Mary. We Catholics CALL Mary the Mother of God. Other Christians call her the Mother of the Son of God, or the Mother of God the Son, or the “Mother of the Human Nature of the Second Person of the Holy Trinity perfectly undivided from His Divine Nature.” Call me stupid, if you like, but somehow “Mother of God” just seems simpler and easier (since we Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans, and Episcopalians, all know exactly what it means–and are willing to take UNENDING miles of blog string to explain to those who don’t understand over … and over … and over again).
Of course, we Catholics call Mary MANY other things as well, none of which are explicitly ascribed to her in Scripture, for example, Star of the Sea, Queen of Martyrs, Help of Christians. we could start a new blog string and spend hours and hours posting with regard to the nature and virtues of each and every one of her more than 50 titles. Sounds like fun, eh???
— Blessings to all! --Rusty
R
Rustyxcv
Guest
Greetings all!
– As you know, I like to tell stories. I hope the one below edifies.(Again, my permanent caveat to Pious Souls, if what I say seems irreverant, please forgive.)
– Somebody way back in the string (Mercygate, Kitty ???), commenting on my observation that all true Christians embrace the REALITY of the spiritual and theological elements represented by the Catholic term “Mother of God,” said something to the effect of “Oh cool, then Catholics, Episcopalians, and Lutherans ar IN!”
– Well, yes, on the face of it, given their specific theological formulations, those groups appear to be on the right track. But keep in mind that it is the acknowledgment (however interiorly) of the realities associated with the special status of Mary’s motherhood that is crucial to my point. There are “liberal” Catholic, Episcopalian, etc., divines and theologians who are SO weak on the divinity and miraculous workings of Jesus that they effectively disqualify themselves; and there conservative Evangelical believers who by their absolute commitment to the divinity of Christ and in their lives of dedicated charitable service to those in need are, in fact, much closer to the bosom of Our Lady (without ever knowing themselves, or without ever in their lives uttering the phrase “Mother of God” or saying a single Ave). It is my expectation and my hope that She will receive these last as Her true children in the Heavenly Kingdom.
– To the STORY, which originated as a vision during prayer & meditation.
– The Kingdom of Heaven is a large banqueting hall in which there is much feasting and rejoicing. There is one HUGE oaken door leading into it, mounted with beautifully ornate iron strap-work. The door rests on slanted, spring-loaded hinges, so that left to itself the door always swings wide open (so that anyone who wants to get in, can). The inside of the door is perfectly smooth and has no handle on it. The only way that anyone can keep someone else out of the Hall is to go out and push the door shut from the outside, in the process shutting himself out, as well!
– So . . . let us all be charitable about who is “in” and who is “out.” OK?
– Blessing to all! —Rusty
– As you know, I like to tell stories. I hope the one below edifies.(Again, my permanent caveat to Pious Souls, if what I say seems irreverant, please forgive.)
– Somebody way back in the string (Mercygate, Kitty ???), commenting on my observation that all true Christians embrace the REALITY of the spiritual and theological elements represented by the Catholic term “Mother of God,” said something to the effect of “Oh cool, then Catholics, Episcopalians, and Lutherans ar IN!”
– Well, yes, on the face of it, given their specific theological formulations, those groups appear to be on the right track. But keep in mind that it is the acknowledgment (however interiorly) of the realities associated with the special status of Mary’s motherhood that is crucial to my point. There are “liberal” Catholic, Episcopalian, etc., divines and theologians who are SO weak on the divinity and miraculous workings of Jesus that they effectively disqualify themselves; and there conservative Evangelical believers who by their absolute commitment to the divinity of Christ and in their lives of dedicated charitable service to those in need are, in fact, much closer to the bosom of Our Lady (without ever knowing themselves, or without ever in their lives uttering the phrase “Mother of God” or saying a single Ave). It is my expectation and my hope that She will receive these last as Her true children in the Heavenly Kingdom.
– To the STORY, which originated as a vision during prayer & meditation.
– The Kingdom of Heaven is a large banqueting hall in which there is much feasting and rejoicing. There is one HUGE oaken door leading into it, mounted with beautifully ornate iron strap-work. The door rests on slanted, spring-loaded hinges, so that left to itself the door always swings wide open (so that anyone who wants to get in, can). The inside of the door is perfectly smooth and has no handle on it. The only way that anyone can keep someone else out of the Hall is to go out and push the door shut from the outside, in the process shutting himself out, as well!
– So . . . let us all be charitable about who is “in” and who is “out.” OK?
– Blessing to all! —Rusty
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