mother of God question?

[itsjustdave1988]

BillyT92679:

What Dave is saying is that the Blessed Virgin, as daughter of the Father, spouse of the Holy Spirit, and Mother of the Incarnate Word forms a type of spiritual Holy Family… I’m sure he knows that the technical Holy Family is Our Lord, Our Lady, and the Foster Father of Christ.

Whose this guy Joseph I keep hearing about??? [just kidding]

My point was that the Mother of a Divine-Human Son need not be Divine, as the Father was Divine. The daughter-spouse-mother relationship of Mary to God does not necessitate her being essentially Divine. Humans can be “holy” and still remain in essence, human.

 

[Rustyxcv]

Ah mon cher Monsiuer Huguenot – --where to begin???
–In the old civilized days (you may be too young to remember), when one went up the elevator in a tall building there was always a sweet small lady in a neat uniform with shiny brass buttons who would say as you stepped into the cab, “Floor, please?” That little lady is Our Blessed Mother. She has been up and down the elevator MANY times. She sees who comes and goes. She has heard what they are going to propose to the Boss on the Top Floor. She hears about the bonuses and promotions they have received from Him as they come back down. IF YOU LIKE, on your way up, you can talk to her and see what she has to say, see what she has heard lately, just maybe get some tips on how to best phrase your proposal to the Chief. But you don’t NEED to talk to her. You don’t even have to announce your floor number – --SHE knows what floor you are going to and will see to it that you get there in a timely fashion, whether you ask for her help or not. That’s just the way she is: kind, generous, helpful, yet modest and anassuming.
– So take the stairs if you like, but if you go up in the elevator you can have a little chat as you go. It will help to pass the time and make the trip much more pleasant!
God bless!!! --Rusty

 

[Rustyxcv]

Encore pour Monsieur Huguenot–
–I like your qoute from St. John’s Gospel, “I am the way . . .etc . . .no one comes to the Father but by me.” You remember, of course, that as Our Lord suffered His final agonies he conveyed the care of His precious mother to His beloved disciple John, and that he put John in Mary’s care. Indulge me, if you would, for a few moments to travel back in time . . . to a day a couple of decades after that Most Blessed Event.
– BVM – “John, you have such a good memory of so many of Jesus’ sayings, why don’t you write them down to share with others.”
– John – “Hmmmm, that’s a good idea, Mother Dear. I think I will include the particulars of your son’s life, too. Will you help me with some of the details.”
– BVM – “Of course, I’d be glad to. Don’t forget that ‘I am the Way saying.’ It had such a powerful effect on the people the day He said it.”
– John – “Yes, I will include that and many others.”
[Devout souls will please forgive the liberties I have taken. I mean no disrespect toward St. John or Our Lady and do not wish to offend anyone’s sense of proper piety.]
– So, mon ami Huguenot, while the saying from St. John’s Gospel helped to bring you to God (along with the power of the Holy Spirit and the intercessory prayers of ALL the saints on earth & in heaven), don’t you think that perhaps humility requires one to admit that one could only be “saved” (or better “directed”) by this particularly powerful verse because St. John actually WROTE IT DOWN for one to read in the first place??? So, might not one say that St. John in doing this writing mediated God’s grace to you? And, if the ridiculous scenario I have concocted above in any way resembles what actually happened, might . . . just maybe . . . might not one say that in suggesting to John that he write his gospel, and in helping him to remember the details of Our Lord’s life and sayings, that Mary has also (granted at several removes) mediated God’s grace to one?
– Again, please forgive me if I offend, might it be too much to hope for that just maybe, one day, some day, somewhere, one might find it in one’s heart to say just a wee small tiny prayer of thanks to St. John (and perhaps even to the Blessed Mother) for their kind and thoughtful generosity of doing the work of bringing this GOLDEN verse to one – a verse which, if one is to be believed, has saved a perishing soul from the very fires of that place down there. . . ?
– All of this touches on the true scandal of the Gospel, that the Eternal Word actually did come down to earth and become REAL FLESH AND BLOOD, with real flesh and blood relations and all that that entails. Further, that He has established a Kingdom, a Fellowship, a Communion, that CANNOT be broken, not even by the crevasse of death. We are ALL one in Christ, together, everywhere, and forever. Hallelujah!
[Oh my goodness, will somebody PLEASE get this bozo – i.e. me – out of the pulpit – LOL]
– I withdraw humbly. Forgive me for going on so long and loud.
–Rusty

 

[Rustyxcv]

Monsieur Huguenot, pardonnez moi encore–
– You mention Hebrews 9 & 10. An excellent source! I have just glanced over it again and don’t want to parse it in great detail but would like to suggest one notion.
– It seems to me that most (if not all) of Hebrews is dealing with Christ’s priestly office. The author demonstrates that it is after the manner of Melchizidek and not Levitical, not in the line of Aaron.
– While he does not mention it (I don’t think) or go into details, isn’t it interesting that Christ’s very real birth from the Virgin Mary of the tribe of Judah, of the lineage of David, provides the actuality and the proof that Jesus CANNOT be an Aaronic priest from the tribe of Levi!
– Just a thought. --Rusty

 

[Loren_1of6]

Huguenot:

But if Jesus is the “only Mediator”, why should I need another one ?

Do you remember the story of Job? He was going through so many trials and hardships that even his best friends were suggesting that he should abandon God because God had “obviously” abandoned him.

In Job 42:7-9 God speaks to them and orders them to make a sacrifice in Job’s presence and to get Job to pray for them, saying that He will not answer their prayers because of their sin. When they go through the intercessor provided by God, He accepts that intercession.

God has provided us with a new intercessor in Mary. We can go through her when we are not worthy to ask favors of God.

Mary takes on this responsibility as the new Gabirah, the Queen Mother of the rebuilt House of David. It is the job of the King’s mother to bring worthwhile petitions to his attention. She is the one who begs for mercy for the people of the kingdom.

 

[mercygate]

Loren 1of6:

God has provided us with a new intercessor in Mary. We can go through her when we are not worthy to ask favors of God.

Oi. What on earth do you mean by that?

In one sense, we are never worthy to ask anything of God. In another sense, of course, we are God’s children and are never so “unworthy” that we cannot come to him when we are in need.

 

[Huguenot]

Mickey:

But asking one person to pray for you in no way violates Christ’s mediatorship, as can be seen from considering the way in which Christ is a mediator. First, Christ is a unique mediator between man and God because he is the only person who is both God and man. He is the only bridge between the two, the only God-man. But that role as mediator is not compromised in the least by the fact that others intercede for us. Furthermore, Christ is a unique mediator between God and man because he is the Mediator of the New Covenant (Heb. 9:15, 12:24), just as Moses was the mediator (Greek mesitas) of the Old Covenant (Gal. 3:19–20).

The intercession of fellow Christians—which is what the saints in heaven are—also clearly does not interfere with Christ’s unique mediatorship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed: “First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:1–4). Clearly, then, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something “good and pleasing to God,” not something infringing on Christ’s role as mediator.
(Excerpt from Catholic Answers article)

I have no problem in asking fellow-Christians who are “with me” ( on this earth ) to intercede on my behalf, nor have I any problems in praying for others …
but asking somebody who is in Heaven to do so, for me , yes, it seems to interfere with the fact that Christ in the only Mediator…
With fellow -Christians who are “here” we can talk the matter over first, we can have a discussion, with those who are in Heaven…if they want to pray for us ( but I don’t even know if they do … apart from Jesus, because somewhere in the New Testament we are told he intercedes for us … ), I would say it’s up to them, but I don’t feel the right to “contact” them …
Same for angels …I don’t “contact” them either …

 

[Huguenot]

Loren 1of6:

Do you remember the story of Job? He was going through so many trials and hardships that even his best friends were suggesting that he should abandon God because God had “obviously” abandoned him.

In Job 42:7-9 God speaks to them and orders them to make a sacrifice in Job’s presence and to get Job to pray for them, saying that He will not answer their prayers because of their sin. When they go through the intercessor provided by God, He accepts that intercession.

God has provided us with a new intercessor in Mary. We can go through her when we are not worthy to ask favors of God.

Mary takes on this responsibility as the new Gabirah, the Queen Mother of the rebuilt House of David. It is the job of the King’s mother to bring worthwhile petitions to his attention. She is the one who begs for mercy for the people of the kingdom.

But I don’t think Mary was given to us as a Mediator …
And doesn’t a part of you text imply that Jesus Himself is not merciful enough ?? Ouch, that’s difficult to accept …
We are ALWAYS unworthy of asking favours from God, but He Himself encourages us to do so :

“Since therefore, brethren, we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil,that is, His flesh,
and since we have a great priest over the house of God,
LET US DRAW NEAR WITH A SINCERE HEART IN FULL ASSURANCE OF FAITH…” ( Hebrews 10 : 19-22 )

 

[Huguenot]

Rustyxcv:

Monsieur Huguenot, pardonnez moi encore–
– You mention Hebrews 9 & 10. An excellent source! I have just glanced over it again and don’t want to parse it in great detail but would like to suggest one notion.
– It seems to me that most (if not all) of Hebrews is dealing with Christ’s priestly office. The author demonstrates that it is after the manner of Melchizidek and not Levitical, not in the line of Aaron.
– While he does not mention it (I don’t think) or go into details, isn’t it interesting that Christ’s very real birth from the Virgin Mary of the tribe of Judah, of the lineage of David, provides the actuality and the proof that Jesus CANNOT be an Aaronic priest from the tribe of Levi!
– Just a thought. --Rusty

It’s an interesting thought, but not “connected” ( for me ) with the fact that Mary can be a Mediator …
By the way, I’m a woman … ( I know Huguenot sounds masculine, but in English there is no difference between the masculine and the feminine for adjectives ; on a French forum, I would have written Huguenote, the final “e” would have shown I’m a woman …

 

[Huguenot]

Rustyxcv:

Ah mon cher Monsiuer Huguenot – --where to begin???
–In the old civilized days (you may be too young to remember), when one went up the elevator in a tall building there was always a sweet small lady in a neat uniform with shiny brass buttons who would say as you stepped into the cab, “Floor, please?” That little lady is Our Blessed Mother. She has been up and down the elevator MANY times. She sees who comes and goes. She has heard what they are going to propose to the Boss on the Top Floor. She hears about the bonuses and promotions they have received from Him as they come back down. IF YOU LIKE, on your way up, you can talk to her and see what she has to say, see what she has heard lately, just maybe get some tips on how to best phrase your proposal to the Chief. But you don’t NEED to talk to her. You don’t even have to announce your floor number – --SHE knows what floor you are going to and will see to it that you get there in a timely fashion, whether you ask for her help or not. That’s just the way she is: kind, generous, helpful, yet modest and anassuming.
– So take the stairs if you like, but if you go up in the elevator you can have a little chat as you go. It will help to pass the time and make the trip much more pleasant!
God bless!!! --Rusty

But in your lift I could also have a talk with … Jesus …

 

[Huguenot]

Rustyxcv:

Encore pour Monsieur Huguenot–
–I like your qoute from St. John’s Gospel, “I am the way . . .etc . . .no one comes to the Father but by me.” You remember, of course, that as Our Lord suffered His final agonies he conveyed the care of His precious mother to His beloved disciple John, and that he put John in Mary’s care. Indulge me, if you would, for a few moments to travel back in time . . . to a day a couple of decades after that Most Blessed Event.
– BVM – “John, you have such a good memory of so many of Jesus’ sayings, why don’t you write them down to share with others.”
– John – “Hmmmm, that’s a good idea, Mother Dear. I think I will include the particulars of your son’s life, too. Will you help me with some of the details.”
– BVM – “Of course, I’d be glad to. Don’t forget that ‘I am the Way saying.’ It had such a powerful effect on the people the day He said it.”
– John – “Yes, I will include that and many others.”
[Devout souls will please forgive the liberties I have taken. I mean no disrespect toward St. John or Our Lady and do not wish to offend anyone’s sense of proper piety.]
– So, mon ami Huguenot, while the saying from St. John’s Gospel helped to bring you to God (along with the power of the Holy Spirit and the intercessory prayers of ALL the saints on earth & in heaven), don’t you think that perhaps humility requires one to admit that one could only be “saved” (or better “directed”) by this particularly powerful verse because St. John actually WROTE IT DOWN for one to read in the first place??? So, might not one say that St. John in doing this writing mediated God’s grace to you? And, if the ridiculous scenario I have concocted above in any way resembles what actually happened, might . . . just maybe . . . might not one say that in suggesting to John that he write his gospel, and in helping him to remember the details of Our Lord’s life and sayings, that Mary has also (granted at several removes) mediated God’s grace to one?
– Again, please forgive me if I offend, might it be too much to hope for that just maybe, one day, some day, somewhere, one might find it in one’s heart to say just a wee small tiny prayer of thanks to St. John (and perhaps even to the Blessed Mother) for their kind and thoughtful generosity of doing the work of bringing this GOLDEN verse to one – a verse which, if one is to be believed, has saved a perishing soul from the very fires of that place down there. . . ?
– All of this touches on the true scandal of the Gospel, that the Eternal Word actually did come down to earth and become REAL FLESH AND BLOOD, with real flesh and blood relations and all that that entails. Further, that He has established a Kingdom, a Fellowship, a Communion, that CANNOT be broken, not even by the crevasse of death. We are ALL one in Christ, together, everywhere, and forever. Hallelujah!
[Oh my goodness, will somebody PLEASE get this bozo – i.e. me – out of the pulpit – LOL]
– I withdraw humbly. Forgive me for going on so long and loud.
–Rusty

I am thankful for all the Christians who have obeyed God, inclusive Mary, John and others, but it doesn’t mean I’ll pray to them …
I’m thankful for all those who have transmitted us God’s Words, not only the Christians, but also the Jews, but I don’t pray to Moses either …
For me they are all examples to follow because of their submission to God’s will, but it doesn’t mean I must pray to them …
For me it isn’t the same at all …

 

[tjmiller]

I you ask me to pray for you, then you are, ipso facto, praying* to * me. We “pray to” anyone when we ask him for anything.

 

[Huguenot]

tjmiller:

I you ask me to pray for you, then you are, ipso facto, praying* to * me. We “pray to” anyone when we ask him for anything.

I know that is what Catholics think, but I don’t think it is the same at all …
And anyway does the fact that we pray only to God “bother” you, and if yes, why ?

 

[jimmy]

k.Decker:

I have been pondering this for some time, I know the holy trinity is father, son, and holy ghost but I have developed a great respect for the virgin mary, is she in some ways considerd a Goddess in way,
she is chosen to be divine, so is there mother, father, and son, a holy family, God greated us in it’s image, male and female-the human race, then is it possible for god to exist in a femine divine state, thanks and please let me know, take it easy.

Mary is not divine. Mary is considered to be the greatest creation of Gods and therefore we give her great honor but she is not divine.

We do mention the holy family meaning Jesus, Mary and Joseph. You will often see the initials JMJ on this site and some others. This is their significance. But the holy family does not imply divinity, it simply implies that the family was extremely holy and they subjected themselves to God.

God is neither male nor female so there is no such thing as a female divine state. God was made man in a sense but a more accurate statement would be that He “put on flesh”. God was not changed in any way when He(I do not use the He to imply that God is masculine) became The Christ.

 

[Loren_1of6]

Huguenot:

I know that is what Catholics think, but I don’t think it is the same at all …
And anyway does the fact that we pray only to God “bother” you, and if yes, why ?

If you check an English dictionary, you will find that the word “pray” means to ask or beg a favor. In the United States, the word pray is even included in legal documents that have nothing to do with talking to God.

When we pray to the saints and angels, we are using this meaning of the word “pray.” We should truly be asking them to ask God to grant this favor.

We believe in the resurrection of the dead, in the communion of saints, in life everlasting. Even when someone dies, the soul lives on. Some of these souls are in Heaven with God. These souls are “closer” to God than we are.

Mary is set up to ask favors of her Son. She is the one who got Him to perform His first public miracle at Cana, merely by pointing out the problem to Him and then sending the servants to “Do whatever He tells you.” Even though He knew that His time had not yet come, He listened to His mother and did what she had asked.

If the servants had gone directly to Jesus, the answer would have been no. He will do things for His mother that He would not do for others. We can take advantage of this softness in His heart by asking His mother to take our petitions to Him.

Catholics are not required to pray to Mary. We are not required to pray to the saints or the angels. Some of us will avail ourselves of their intercession. If you do not feel comfortable asking Jesus mother to help you, then you don’t have to; it’s no skin off my nose.

 

[Huguenot]

Loren 1of6:

If you check an English dictionary, you will find that the word “pray” means to ask or beg a favor. In the United States, the word pray is even included in legal documents that have nothing to do with talking to God.

When we pray to the saints and angels, we are using this meaning of the word “pray.” We should truly be asking them to ask God to grant this favor.

We believe in the resurrection of the dead, in the communion of saints, in life everlasting. Even when someone dies, the soul lives on. Some of these souls are in Heaven with God. These souls are “closer” to God than we are.

Mary is set up to ask favors of her Son. She is the one who got Him to perform His first public miracle at Cana, merely by pointing out the problem to Him and then sending the servants to “Do whatever He tells you.” Even though He knew that His time had not yet come, He listened to His mother and did what she had asked.

If the servants had gone directly to Jesus, the answer would have been no. He will do things for His mother that He would not do for others. We can take advantage of this softness in His heart by asking His mother to take our petitions to Him.

Catholics are not required to pray to Mary. We are not required to pray to the saints or the angels. Some of us will avail ourselves of their intercession. If you do not feel comfortable asking Jesus mother to help you, then you don’t have to; it’s no skin off my nose.

But if Catholics are not REQUIRED to pray to Mary, why do some of you try to convince Protestants to do so ??? :banghead:
We don’t know what Jesus answer would have been if the servants had gone directly to Jesus ; and as far as I remember, Mary just told the servants to ask Jesus, she didn’t go to Him to intercede first : if we have to see something “symbolical” in it ( but I’m not sure of that ), then it is the contrary : the servants “prayed to her” and she said : "nay, don’t pray to me, go to my Son "…

 

[mercygate]

Huguenot:

But if Catholics are not REQUIRED to pray to Mary, why do some of you try to convince Protestants to do so ??? :banghead:
We don’t know what Jesus answer would have been if the servants had gone directly to Jesus ; and as far as I remember, Mary just told the servants to ask Jesus, she didn’t go to Him to intercede first : if we have to see something “symbolical” in it ( but I’m not sure of that ), then it is the contrary : the servants “prayed to her” and she said : "nay, don’t pray to me, go to my Son "…

We have found much help in our walk by going in the company of the Saints, of whom Our Lady is the foremost. Why would we not share our experience with our friends? Why on earth would one bang one’s head or roll one’s eyes over that?

As for your recollecton of the miracle at Cana, look again. Mary initiates the miracle when she goes to Jesus to tell him, “They have no wine.” When he demurs, she instructs the servants: “Do whatever he tells you.” (She always says to us, “Do whatever he tells you.”) Then Jesus honors her request abundantly.

 

[Huguenot]

mercygate:

We have found much help in our walk by going in the company of the Saints, of whom Our Lady is the foremost. Why would we not share our experience with our friends? Why on earth would one bang one’s head or roll one’s eyes over that?

As for your recollecton of the miracle at Cana, look again. Mary initiates the miracle when she goes to Jesus to tell him, “They have no wine.” When he demurs, she instructs the servants: “Do whatever he tells you.” (She always says to us, “Do whatever he tells you.”) Then Jesus honors her request abundantly.

Banging my head was just a kind of joke …
I’ll read the passage you mention again, but I still think Jesus is merciful enough to give us what we need : not necessarily what we want …
If He has given his life for us, he loves us enough to grant our request without his mother’s mediation …

 

[mercygate]

Huguenot:

Banging my head was just a kind of joke …

Ah. That wasn’t the impression. Sorry I misunderstood.

I’ll read the passage you mention again, but I still think Jesus is merciful enough to give us what we need : not necessarily what we want …

Of course. And one of the things he gave us is his Mother, virtually with his dying breath. Catholics take personally John 19:26-27:

When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son!” Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!” And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home.

As a convert myself, it took me a while to be fully open to Our Lady, even though I knew somewhere in my heart of hearts that she had always been far kinder and more attentive to me than ever I had been to her. I was a full-blown anti-Catholic, and the whole idea of Mary made me sick. “Taking her into my own home” was a process that took several years.

If He has given his life for us, he loves us enough to grant our request without his mother’s mediation …

And . . . ? That means she does not or cannot hold us before his merciful eyes in prayer? There are degrees of Marian devotion, to be sure: sometimes extreme (and I am certain that distresses her). But that does not mean that there is no proportional place for Our Lady in our hearts. Do we not strive to imitate Jesus? Did Jesus not fulfill the law with perfection? Therefore he surely “honored his father and mother” perfectly (the Hebrew word for “honor” translates as “glorify”). We do not seek to surpass Jesus in our love of his Mother, only to match his example.

 

[Huguenot]

mercygate:

Ah. That wasn’t the impression. Sorry I misunderstood.
Of course. And one of the things he gave us is his Mother, virtually with his dying breath. Catholics take personally John 19:26-27:

When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son!” Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!” And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home.

As a convert myself, it took me a while to be fully open to Our Lady, even though I knew somewhere in my heart of hearts that she had always been far kinder and more attentive to me than ever I had been to her. I was a full-blown anti-Catholic, and the whole idea of Mary made me sick. “Taking her into my own home” was a process that took several years.

And . . . ? That means she does not or cannot hold us before his merciful eyes in prayer? There are degrees of Marian devotion, to be sure: sometimes extreme (and I am certain that distresses her). But that does not mean that there is no proportional place for Our Lady in our hearts. Do we not strive to imitate Jesus? Did Jesus not fulfill the law with perfection? Therefore he surely “honored his father and mother” perfectly (the Hebrew word for “honor” translates as “glorify”). We do not seek to surpass Jesus in our love of his Mother, only to match his example.

We don’t take the passage from John “personally” : for us, he left his mother in the care of John, not in ours …
If I understand well, you were Protestant and you converted to Catholicism ; and when you were Protestant you were anti-Catholic ; well, I’ve been brought up in an atheist family, that was anti-Catholic because it was anticlerical and since Catholics represent at least 80% of the population in France, anticlerical people are …anti-Catholics because they very often don’t have an occasion of meeting …Protestants ( we form about … 2 % of the population, it is very difficult to “find us” !!! sometimes it is even difficult for us to find each other …especially in some regions … ) ; but they were not anti-catholics for the same reasons as some Protestants in your country.
I don’t remember having had aggressive feelings against the Catholic Church, even when I was an atheist too …or maybe I had aggressive feelings against Christianity in general…
When I became a Christian I was baptized in an Evangelical Church…now some of my folks who are still atheists have turned …anti-Protestant because of me ( maybe I’m the first one they’ve met ) ; well, it gives the Catholic Church a rest !!!

I agree with you : we must honour our parents, which I do, and the fact that I don’t pray Mary ( or other saints ) doesn’t mean that I don’t respect them …