Moto Propio not what we think it is?

[thistle]

A couple of non-sequitors here. And perhaps a misleading assumption as well. Can you clarify?

A Pope CAN do or say a lot of things but the question is, is it always for the good of the Church and is it always clear? Hopefully in the future we won’t need a study made by 9 Cardinals appointed by still another Pope to overturn what a previous Pope was perceived to have done. The MP should be clear enough to avoid any such controversy. :coffeeread:

Clarify what?
Are you saying that a Pope cannot change the form of Liturgy?
The answer is either yes or no. I don’t want a yes but he shouldn’t.

Also what do people think this MP is going to achieve? There will not be a return to the TLM as the norm unless it is mandated and I think most folks realise that will not happen.

 

[richardwy]

Guess everyone will have to wait to see what it actually says rather than speculating and wringing hands.

 

[rwoehmke]

This thread sounds almost like “There’s a weasel in the chicken coop!”

 

[AlexV]

One of the quickest ways to guarantee liturgical abuse, and to promote a period of liturgical atrophy, disuse, and general lack of love, is to underscore and emphasize the point that the Sacred Liturgy is “merely a discipline” and subject in all its parts except the Consecration formula (and even that with some tinkering) to the whim of any pope to wipe out the whole thing with a brush of his pen.

 

[paramedicgirl]

Clarify what?
Are you saying that a Pope cannot change the form of Liturgy?
The answer is either yes or no. I don’t want a yes but he shouldn’t.

Also what do people think this MP is going to achieve? There will not be a return to the TLM as the norm unless it is mandated and I think most folks realise that will not happen.

Let’s see, to name just a few…

1. Greater access to the Mass of the Ages
2. More reverence and holiness returned to the Mass
3. A return to the traditions of the church
4. An increase in vocations
5. An increase in boys and men serving at the altar
6. Greater exposure and education among the faithful about the sacred mysteries of the Holy Mass
7. A return to the rich heritage of beautiful, sacred music of the Church

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Wouldn’t that make it the NO?

It wouldn’t - the difference is in the underlying theology & liturgy: not of language.​

I almost typed “the really importance difference…” but that may be misleading, because while the important difference for the laity in the Church is apt to be in things like the language, the important difference for the Church considered under a different aspect is in the theology which the liturgical Rite expresses - & to some, that is evidence of two different, & antagonistic, doctrines: while for others, the theologies express different doctrinal formulations, which are complementary, but not antagonistic.

In any case, the Mass, or else parts of it, has often been offered in the vernacular: usually in the missions, AFAIR; even since 1570.

 

[BobP123]

Clarify what? Are you saying that a Pope cannot change the form of Liturgy?

A Pope CAN overrule entire doctrinal ecumenical councils and sell off all the church property and excommunicate everyone but himself so what’s your point?

Also what do people think this MP is going to achieve?

Hopefully to plant good seeds.

 

[thistle]

A Pope CAN overrule entire doctrinal ecumenical councils and sell off all the church property and excommunicate everyone but himself so what’s your point?

Hopefully to plant good seeds.

Your previous comments imply that the Pope can change the form of the Liturgy but should not. In other words you seem to feel that the TLM should be the only Mass allowed and should never be changed. Why? Shouldn’t people be allowed to understand the Mass in their own language?
I do not believe there is any evidence, as another poster suggests, that vocations have gone down and Mass attendences down because of the NO Mass being introduced.
I live in the Philippines where Mass attendence at over 80% is up from the past and priestly vocations are up as well. In fact we are “exporting” priests to other countries.

 

[AlexV]

Some countries…I’d include the Philippines…do indeed do well in numbers of vocations. Some of that is caused by the fact that in some countries, the Priesthood is a significant step up out of social/financial destitution.

 

[thistle]

Some countries…I’d include the Philippines…do indeed do well in numbers of vocations. Some of that is caused by the fact that in some countries, the Priesthood is a significant step up out of social/financial destitution.

That’s possible but that wouldn’t apply to Mass attendence.
I’m sure someone can dig up statistics but I wouldn’t be surprised if Mass attendence is only down in the west (where the minority of Catholics live) while in the rest of the world Mass attendence is considerably higher. If that’s the case then I don’t think the TLM comes into the equation at all and it means there are other problems with the Church in the west.

 

[rwoehmke]

That’s possible but that wouldn’t apply to Mass attendance.
I’m sure someone can dig up statistics but I wouldn’t be surprised if Mass attendance is only down in the West (where the minority of Catholics live) while in the rest of the world Mass attendance is considerably higher. If that’s the case then I don’t think the TLM comes into the equation at all and it means there are other problems with the Church in the West.

The problem is relative prosperity. Mammon has taken over in the West. One can see it happening in Ireland. Those who have wealth and power no longer need God. He just gets in the way. Yes it is a generalization, but I think it is a valid observation in a lot of cases.

 

[thistle]

The problem is relative prosperity. Mammon has taken over in the West. One can see it happening in Ireland. Those who have wealth and power no longer need God. He just gets in the way. Yes it is a generalization, but I think it is a valid observation in a lot of cases.

I think you are right. They think they don’t need God but there will come a day…!

 

[Glennon_P]

Some countries…I’d include the Philippines…do indeed do well in numbers of vocations. Some of that is caused by the fact that in some countries, the Priesthood is a significant step up out of social/financial destitution.

So…would this apply to the U.S. and other countries during the first half of this century (when we had larger numbers of vocations) as well?

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

Right! How could “The Traditional Latin Mass” be said in the vernacular?

There are already English translations of the TLM available. There was also a dispensation to Croatia for the TLM to be said in the vernacular.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

This thread sounds almost like “There’s a weasel in the chicken coop!”

Bishop Williamson will be screaming “the chickens have come home to roost!”

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

A Pope CAN overrule entire doctrinal ecumenical councils and sell off all the church property and excommunicate everyone but himself so what’s your point?

Where is that in Canon Law? Infallibility doesn’t mean that the Pope can change revealed Truths – neither is the Pope impeccable.

 

[BobP123]

Where is that in Canon Law? Infallibility doesn’t mean that the Pope can change revealed Truths – neither is the Pope impeccable.

I emphasized the word “can” as in “is able to” or “it’s possible for him to.” Doesn’t mean it’s prudent of him or that he’ll be able to get away with it, at least not for long anyway. Let’s not forget, Peter denied Christ three times so he’s definitely human.

 

[BobP123]

There are already English translations of the TLM available. There was also a dispensation to Croatia for the TLM to be said in the vernacular.

Then it would be no longer the Traditional Latin Mass. And not the Mass of Trent either, if it’s said in the vulgar tongue. It would probably be similar to some Anglican version in some translated form.

Problem with exceptions and dispensations is that everyone thinks he’s special and everyone else wants it then too. It’s human nature. Yet you lose focus from the big picture.

 

[Jean_Anthony]

Please stay on topic or I will have to close this thread. Thank you.

 

[IronHammer]

There are already English translations of the TLM available. There was also a dispensation to Croatia for the TLM to be said in the vernacular.

Though I have never been to a TLM (I have seen them on youtube and they are beautiful), I have been a Catholic for 20 years now and I must say I adore the Mass in English. What I don’t adore is the irreverence I see in people during Mass. I don’t see people humbling themselves before Our Lord and in His house like He deserves. I don’t hear music that properly pays Him due respect and honor. This isn’t the fault of the Mass or the Church but it is a problem the Church must deal with. I would think that the TLM in English would be a suitable meetpoint so that newer Catholics who love the N.O. Mass won’t be frightened by having to learn Latin, while the reverence and beauty of the liturgy and music of the TLM would be retained. In my mind, this is what the Vatican II reformers were after in the first place. This what I hope the MP will truly strive for.