M
Mickey
Guest
I’ve already addressed this. St Peter was certainly a spokesman for the others…but not above them.
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M
Mickey
Guest
What would you like to address Elvis? You keep changing subjects as I answer.
I have many patristic sources. Furthermore, sometimes you speak to St Peter’s “primacy”…other times you refer to his “supremacy”. Which is it?
N
Nicea325
Guest
Yes.Want some ECF support of Peter’s primacy? All of the verses posted are clearly show a primacy there or else I would have not posted them if they had no reference to Peter.We were discussing Isaiah and the key (singular). Now you have cut and pasted a bunch of verses.
Go back and read the thread. Hint: Christ said “I will give you the keys…” with the power to bind and loose. Then in Matthew 18 gives all the apostles the power to bind and loose.
There is also patristic support.
I beg your pardon? NO WHERE in Matthew 18:18 does Jesus give other Apostles the keys.NO WHERE!
18 “Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
Where in that verse does he mention or even hint keys?
Matt 16:19: And I will give [action] you (Peter,singular) the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed[d] in heaven.”
Notice the conjunction…and?
M
Mickey
Guest
And therefore it is said to him, preferentially, after the confession: "And I give thee the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven: and if thou bindest upon the earth, it will be bound in the Heavens: and if thou loosenest upon the earth, it will be loosened in the Heavens (Mt 16; 19). Wherefore it was not one man, but rather the One Universal Church, that received these “keys” and the right “to bind and loosen.” And that actually it was the Church that received this right, and not exclusively a single person, turn your attention to another place of the Scriptures, where the same Lord says to also all His Apostles: “Receive ye the Holy Spirit” – and further after this: “Whoseso sins ye remit, are remitted them: and whoseso sins ye retain, are retained” (Jn 20:22-23); or: “with what ye bind upon the earth, will be bound in Heaven: and with what ye loosen upon the earth, will be loosened in the Heavens” (Mt 18:18). Thus, it is the Church that binds, the Church that loosens; the Church, built upon the foundational corner-stone – Jesus Christ Himself (Eph 2:20) doth bind and loosen. Let both the binding and the loosening be feared: the loosening, in order not to fall under this again; the binding, in order not to remain forever in this condition. Wherefore “by the passions of his own sins – says Wisdom – is each ensnared” (Prov 5:22); and except for Holy Church nowhere is it possible to receive the loosening.
St Augustine
“Driven from this line of defence you will appeal to the example of the clergy. … Far be it from me to censure the successors of the apostles, who with holy words consecrate the body of Christ, and who make us Christians. Having the keys of the kingdom of heaven, they judge men to some extent before the day of judgment, and guard the chastity of the bride of Christ. But, as I have before hinted, the case of monks is different from that of the clergy. The clergy feed Christ’s sheep; I as a monk am fed by them.”
St. Jerome****
For the Son of thunder, the beloved of Christ, the pillar of the Churches throughout the world, who holds the keys of heaven, who drank the cup of Christ, and was baptized with His baptism, who lay upon his Master’s bosom, with much confidence, this man now comes forward to us now.
St John Chrysosotom
Exactly!!!
N
Nicea325
Guest
For the Son of thunder, the beloved of Christ, the pillar of the Churches throughout the world, who holds the keys of heaven, who drank the cup of Christ, and was baptized with His baptism, who lay upon his Master’s bosom, with much confidence, this man now comes forward to us now.
St John Chrysosotom
Exactly!!!
Exactly! Nice try,but one cannot take one passage to present a smoking gun.Now, who where those church fathers addressing? Who was Chrysostom’s audience? Who is he addressing and what is he arguing against? It is crucial to ask this question in order to understand any document. You can’t just take a short quotation out of its historical and contextual surroundings to suit your own purpose.
After establishing Peter as the “Rock”, Jesus promises to give Peter the “keys of the kingdom of heaven”-a reference to the steward’s keys in Isaiah 22. The Davidic throne had been vacant since the Babylonian captivity (586 BC). The archangel Gabriel announced to Mary her Son Jesus would be given “the throne of his father David” (Lk 1:42). As Jesus, the new King of Israel, re-established the Davidic throne he appointed Peter to the office of royal steward-to rule “over the house” of the king (cf. CCC 553).
Keys represent exclusive dominion and this authority was granted to Peter alone. The office of royal steward was successive in Israel. Familiar with their history, the Jews certainly understand that the office of Peter would be filled by successors as was the royal steward’s office in Judah. The steward may die, but the office continues.
St John Chrysosotom
Exactly!!!
Exactly! Nice try,but one cannot take one passage to present a smoking gun.Now, who where those church fathers addressing? Who was Chrysostom’s audience? Who is he addressing and what is he arguing against? It is crucial to ask this question in order to understand any document. You can’t just take a short quotation out of its historical and contextual surroundings to suit your own purpose.
After establishing Peter as the “Rock”, Jesus promises to give Peter the “keys of the kingdom of heaven”-a reference to the steward’s keys in Isaiah 22. The Davidic throne had been vacant since the Babylonian captivity (586 BC). The archangel Gabriel announced to Mary her Son Jesus would be given “the throne of his father David” (Lk 1:42). As Jesus, the new King of Israel, re-established the Davidic throne he appointed Peter to the office of royal steward-to rule “over the house” of the king (cf. CCC 553).
Keys represent exclusive dominion and this authority was granted to Peter alone. The office of royal steward was successive in Israel. Familiar with their history, the Jews certainly understand that the office of Peter would be filled by successors as was the royal steward’s office in Judah. The steward may die, but the office continues.
M
Mickey
Guest
Indeed.
N
Nicea325
Guest
Indeed,which you precisely have done.
M
Mickey
Guest
If that is how you wish to see it…okay. But I believe all three quotes are very clear.
M
Mickey
Guest
This was aped from apologist Steve Ray.
N
Nicea325
Guest
Oh I yeah,I forgot…everything that is not "Orthodox’ is suspect,please! Get over yourself!
N
Nicea325
Guest
Not how I wish to see,what you clearly want others to BELIEVE! Big difference. So tell me who where those church fathers addressing? Who was Chrysostom’s audience? Who is he addressing and what is he arguing against? It is crucial to ask this question in order to understand any document. Again,you can’t just take a short quotation out of its historical and contextual surroundings to suit your own purpose.
M
Mickey
Guest
There is no need for ad hominems. Cite your sources when you post. If your ad hominems persist you will go on ignore.
M
Mickey
Guest
Tell us…
Tell us.
St John Chrysostom says, regarding the Apostle John,** “the beloved of Christ, the pillar of the Churches throughout the world, who holds the keys of heaven”**
This certainly points to the fact that all the apostles hold the keys. The other quotes support this.
But I am not here to convince you or anyone else.**
**
N
Nicea325
Guest
LOL! If you are so confident those mentioned church fathers support your position,then obviously out of your extensive knowledge and study on them,you would know you they were addressing-right? Is that what they were trying to prove in the full context of those works? That Peter is not the only one who received the keys?Tell us…
Tell us.
St John Chrysostom says, regarding the Apostle John,** “the beloved of Christ, the pillar of the Churches throughout the world, who holds the keys of heaven”**
This certainly points to the fact that all the apostles hold the keys. The other quotes support this.
But I am not here to convince you or anyone else.**
In other words,you have no clue and simply “proof-text” passages trying to prove your agenda. You do not know…do you?
M
Mickey
Guest
Nah. I’m just a bit bored. Are you stalking me Carney? 
Do you have something to add or are you just sniping today?
Do you have something to add or are you just sniping today?
M
Mickey
Guest
Nah, I have access to the entire letter (I have many of St John’s letters). It is from his Homilies on the Gospel of St John. Here it is if you would like to read it:
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf114.toc.html
M
Mickey
Guest
…However, if the Church Fathers are not conducive to your reading then perhaps you should reflect on these verses:
1 Cor 10:4
And all drank the same spiritual drink; (and they drank of the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ.)
Eph 2:19-20
Now therefore you are no more strangers and foreigners; but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and the domestics of God, Built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone:
**(Rev. 21:14) **
“….and the wall of the city with its twelve foundations, upon which were inscribed the twelve names of the twelve Apostles of the Lamb…”
1 Peter 2:6-8
Wherefore it is said in the scripture: Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious. And he that shall believe in him, shall not be confounded. **To you therefore that believe, he is honour: but to them that believe not, the stone which the builders rejected, the same is made the head of the corner: And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of scandal, to them who stumble at the word, neither do believe, whereunto also they are set. ******
1 Cor 10:4
And all drank the same spiritual drink; (and they drank of the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ.)
Eph 2:19-20
Now therefore you are no more strangers and foreigners; but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and the domestics of God, Built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone:
**(Rev. 21:14) **
“….and the wall of the city with its twelve foundations, upon which were inscribed the twelve names of the twelve Apostles of the Lamb…”
1 Peter 2:6-8
Wherefore it is said in the scripture: Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious. And he that shall believe in him, shall not be confounded. **To you therefore that believe, he is honour: but to them that believe not, the stone which the builders rejected, the same is made the head of the corner: And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of scandal, to them who stumble at the word, neither do believe, whereunto also they are set. ******
M
Mickey
Guest
I must leave for an extended period.
Blessed Nativity everyone!
Blessed Nativity everyone!
N
Nicea325
Guest
Oh I see! You merely slice and dice their works for your own agendas? Oh not a problem then-eh? Then tell me since you have access to the entire letter,who was he addressing?
N
Nicea325
Guest
And the rock was Christ? So God alone is called the Rock? You 100% confident? Want other verses showing where OT figures were called the Rock?
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