MOVIES: "Doubt" (contains spoilers)

[pnewton]

I saw the actor who plays the priest in this Doubt movie on one of the morning shows and he went on about how the “OLD” Masses were done and how the congregation had to pray to God “thru” the priest who had his “back” turn to the people. Just nonsence from one who does not know our religion.

I won’t go see the movie because I can’t stand Meryl Streep or movies that have no resolution. However I understand that some chicks like this sort of thing.

On the other hand, I hope no one here is naive to think that the portrayal of a movie of the Catholic Church has any basis in reality. Nothing in Hollywood has any basis in reality. I know that there are those that see DaVinci Code like it actually had a historical basis or will see this movie as what the Catholic Church must have really been like, but I am sure our posters are smarter than that. We know that Hollywood is where a made-up, pretend religion like Scientology can become popular and an actor can grow up to be governor. Heck, these people actually think that the rest of America cares about who the endorse for political office.

 

[kalt]

I won’t go see the movie because I can’t stand Meryl Streep or movies that have no resolution. However I understand that some chicks like this sort of thing.

On the other hand, I hope no one here is naive to think that the portrayal of a movie of the Catholic Church has any basis in reality. Nothing in Hollywood has any basis in reality. I know that there are those that see DaVinci Code like it actually had a historical basis or will see this movie as what the Catholic Church must have really been like, but I am sure our posters are smarter than that. We know that Hollywood is where a made-up, pretend religion like Scientology can become popular and an actor can grow up to be governor. Heck, these people actually think that the rest of America cares about who the endorse for political office.

“Chicks”?

 

[kalt]

The thing is, Fr. Flynn didn’t change his behavior, even when he knew he was suspected. He hugged the kid in the hallway! That’s improper between a priest and a student, even if the priest isn’t a molester. Fr. Flynn, if nothing else, was clueless. I “doubt” that that was all there was to it.

The nun knew that homilies don’t come from nowhere, and Fr Flynn proved that when he told Sr A that he was going to do a homily on intolerance.

Isn’t that just like the guilty? If someone doesn’t like what the guilty do, they’re “intolerant”. Homosexuality. Man-Boy Love Society.

People are constantly being accused of being “intolerant” when the guilty want to shut-up their accusers. They know that very few people want to be called intolerant.

IMO, Fr Flynn was a game-player.

First off, I want to say that I’m torn about this movie. It was a good plot, and it is very layered and makes you think. And in principle what it is about is doubt, not about catholic priests abusing children. But I am saddened that this can even be used as part of a story and that the movie calls such light to the priest abuse scandal. No it shouldn’t be forgotten. But hollywood and society in general seem to want to make priests all a bunch of child molestors. I do not like that.

Now for the spoilers:

I did not like Sr A, at all, one bit. I think she went after the priest as a personal attack, and did not give the priest the benefit of the doubt.

What I really liked about the plot was that, at least from my perspective, you got to see the priest’s side of being accused. Accusing the priest put him in a bad place, to the point where he couldn’t effectively care for his parishoners or the boys in the school because he didn’t want to incriminate himself. And the movie gave you insight into what it is like to be a priest and be charged with caring for young boys, but having to watch yourself at the same time. I really liked that side of things.

The movie definitely left you guessing. And it seems from the variety of reviews different people saw it differently. I liked the imagery and how layered the plot was. That’s the way life is, you can’t ever really be sure of anything without proof. And isn’t that what faith is, belief without proof? And in that case doubt goes hand in hand with faith.

This is how I saw things. Maybe Fr Flynn had things in his past that were bad, maybe to do with boys maybe not. Whatever it was, he didn’t want it being brought up and what sealed his fate was Sr A’s lie that she called the nun from his last parish. Until then he was very convincing. IMO he didn’t want that dragged up, and didn’t want to drag the boy through public accusations, and that’s why he stood down. Not because he did anything improper. Think about it, if he was abusing the child, why would he call him out of class to do it, and risk being seen going into the child’s locker by Sr James? He had plenty of opportunity to do it without arousing suspicion.

The whole problem between Sr A and Fr Flynn started with his homily (not surmon like they kept saying) about doubt. That triggered something with Sr A. And when she said in the end that she had so much doubt it struck me. She went after Fr Flynn because he embodied and called to light her own doubt and struggles. And she didn’t like that he could speak about it, and be happy, and be a man of faith, while she had to conceal it and not be happy and have her doubts. SO she went after him to attack herself and her own doubts. In the end she got him out of there, but she also wasn’t as sure as she thought and she wasn’t convinced of anything.

It was a good movie. I just wish it could have been done without the catholic church and her priests involved.

 

[kalt]

I won’t go see the movie because I can’t stand Meryl Streep or movies that have no resolution. However I understand that some chicks like this sort of thing.

On the other hand, I hope no one here is naive to think that the portrayal of a movie of the Catholic Church has any basis in reality. Nothing in Hollywood has any basis in reality. I know that there are those that see DaVinci Code like it actually had a historical basis or will see this movie as what the Catholic Church must have really been like, but I am sure our posters are smarter than that. We know that Hollywood is where a made-up, pretend religion like Scientology can become popular and an actor can grow up to be governor. Heck, these people actually think that the rest of America cares about who the endorse for political office.

’

BTW, I love the boy’s picture. My father was a firefighter.

 

[kalt]

Have you noticed HOLLYWOOD has started to do movies knocking the the Catholic Church(of which THEY truely don’t have any clue about) around Christmas/Easter time. Like The Da Vinci Code. I saw the actor who plays the priest in this Doubt movie on one of the morning shows and he went on about how the “OLD” Masses were done and how the congregation had to pray to God “thru” the priest who had his “back” turn to the people. Just nonsence from one who does not know our religion. Everything is taken out of context. The Catholic religion is a truely beautiful faith of which HOLLYWOOD of now days has no clue about.

Pray “through the priest”? Where did that come from?

I barely remember the Latin Mass. Mostly what I remember is that my mother never told me that they were speaking Latin, and kept trying to get me to pay attention.

For years I thought there was something wrong with me, because no matter how hard I tried, I couldn’t pay close enough attention to understand. Then all of a sudden, I would understand what they were saying. lol

Anyway, is there a grain of truth in “pray through the priest”? Did they misunderstand some wording that sounded like that?

I wonder if they think Baptists “pray through” the people in the pews in front of them.

 

[thomasf]

The thing is, Fr. Flynn didn’t change his behavior, even when he knew he was suspected. He hugged the kid in the hallway! That’s improper between a priest and a student, even if the priest isn’t a molester. Fr. Flynn, if nothing else, was clueless. I “doubt” that that was all there was to it.

The nun knew that homilies don’t come from nowhere, and Fr Flynn proved that when he told Sr A that he was going to do a homily on intolerance.

Isn’t that just like the guilty? If someone doesn’t like what the guilty do, they’re “intolerant”. Homosexuality. Man-Boy Love Society.

People are constantly being accused of being “intolerant” when the guilty want to shut-up their accusers. They know that very few people want to be called intolerant.

IMO, Fr Flynn was a game-player.

He was worried about the kid. He knew the kid’s father beat him and that he was an outcast at the school. It’s improper for a priest to be concerned and show caring for one of his parishoners? Student or not, I disagree. I hug my priest at my parish now. I think there’s nothing wrong with that. I can understand why you are such a fan of Sr A, you have her attitude.

 

[kalt]

He was worried about the kid. He knew the kid’s father beat him and that he was an outcast at the school. It’s improper for a priest to be concerned and show caring for one of his parishoners? Student or not, I disagree. I hug my priest at my parish now. I think there’s nothing wrong with that. I can understand why you are such a fan of Sr A, you have her attitude.

Well thank you very much.

Oh, that was supposed to be an insult?

And who has Sr A’s attitude? My, my, you are intolerant.

 

[yellowbird]

. I can understand why you are such a fan of Sr A, you have her attitude.

Hey! What’s with the personal attack? :tsktsk:

That’s very Sr. A ish of you!

 

[SMHW]

He was worried about the kid. He knew the kid’s father beat him and that he was an outcast at the school. It’s improper for a priest to be concerned and show caring for one of his parishoners? Student or not, I disagree. I hug my priest at my parish now. I think there’s nothing wrong with that. I can understand why you are such a fan of Sr A, you have her attitude.

See this is the problem of judging Fr. Flynn by today’s standards.

Today it is considered inappropriate for an adult to show too much physical affection for a minor. This is particularly the case where the adult is an authority figure. In fact it is considered inappropriate for a boss to show such affection for an employee. It’s sad that this may put barriers between children and adults who would genuinely offer comfort to them but that’s just the way it is. (Obviously I am not taking about family. But even that can be problematic if the adult is currently supervising children other than his/her own family members.)

Now it may be OK for a priest to hug teens or children if it’s in a very public area or if it’s kind of a group affair. But adults really have to watch it, both to protect themselves and also to be examples for how they expect other adults to behave.

Anytime there is a “power differential” the possibility for sexual abuse or sexual harassment claims.

 

[thomasf]

Well thank you very much.

Oh, that was supposed to be an insult?

No, an observation that you are immediately willing to attribute the worst motives to Fr Flynn without proof of any wrong doing. Just like Sr A.

 

[kalt]

No, an observation that you are immediately willing to attribute the worst motives to Fr Flynn without proof of any wrong doing. Just like Sr A.

I think Sr A made a lot of observations, too.

When you feel “certain” that you are right, it’s an observation not a criticism. You and I see ballpoint pens as a good thing. A welcome change. Sr. A was certain that they were wrong and that anyone who uses them is lazy, etc.

As long as you have certainty…

 

[kalt]

Whoever we agree or disagree with on the guilt or innocence of Fr Flynn and Sr A, I think we all have to agree that this movie does what it meant to do–make people think.

 

[kalt]

No, an observation that you are immediately willing to attribute the worst motives to Fr Flynn without proof of any wrong doing. Just like Sr A.

It’s interesting (just interesting, not a judgment) that no one here has mentioned having a problem with assigning less-than-pure motives to Sr A.

It seems that people are OK with assigning evil motives to someone they don’t like, to someone who is harsh, tough, and unaccepting. But are less willing to do that with someone they like, who is seen as soft, kind, and accepting.

The less-likable person is assigned evil motives, while the charismatic person is assigned the victim role.

The truth is that you don’t know why either of them did what they did. It’s supposed to be up to us to figure it out—and probably to doubt the impression we were left with right after the movie.

I had some tough teachers, and their motives varied. Some were tough to get the best from the students. Some were tough, I think, because they could be.

I also had a few teachers who were friendly. Without exception, I learned more from the teachers who knew what their purpose as teacher was. The friendly teachers were fun to be arround, but I didn’t learn as much from them.

And, I was surprised to learn, the tough teachers were very nice when you went for extra help.

They knew how to teach. And they knew how to teach groups.

These “tough” teachers were better, imo, than those who needed to be liked by the students.

But there I go assigning motives again. Maybe the friendly teachers believed that being buddies facilitated the learning process.

IMO, Sr A was right about the classroom, and Sr J was wrong. Sr J had no control in her classroom, and the kids weren’t learning. They couldn’t have learned while they were crawling on the floor or listening to radios instead of listening. And what about the kids they were disturbing.

I liked how Sr A told Sr J to “just get her through intact”. I don’t think you can doubt her motivation when it came to those kids. She was far more concerned about the reality of what was going on than Sr J was. And she was doing what she could to stop it–at least in the school.

She expected good behavior. She expected quality work.

Sr A was all about standards at a time when standards were being dropped.

And she was spot on.

 

[SisterMoon]

I don’t know if he did it or not, but:

(SPOILER)
I am reminded of Saint Gerard, who was accused of impregnating a girl but never defended himself. Eventually, he was cleared, but he suffered the punishment.

If Father Flynn allowed Sr. A to continue the interrogation (and she WASN’T gonna give up), the boy would have been definitely been “outed” and beat up (possibly killed) by his father and mocked by the other children. Better for Fr. to move along.

On the other hand, the bloody nose boy seemed to know something. He smirked when Fr. was saying his goodbyes.

Overall, I really dug it, and I’m enjoying reading all the other theories here.

 

[pnewton]

“Chicks”?

Yes, I am a chauvenist, especially when it comes to movies. I only like movies that have some resolution at the end, especially if the resolution of the problem involves a lot of explosives.

 

[kalt]

Yes, I am a chauvenist, especially when it comes to movies. I only like movies that have some resolution at the end, especially if the resolution of the problem involves a lot of explosives.

LOL

I suppose a good, firey car crash could have improved Doubt.

 

[kalt]

Did you go in thinking that he was probably guilty or probably innocent?

I had no idea that the guilt or innocence question wouldn’t be answered. And, though I was disturbed by Fr Flynn’s behavior and explanations, I still expected the movie to end with his being cleared. I thought the “game” the writer would play with us was that we would think he was guilty, too, and then find out there was a good explanation for everything.

So I went in expecting him to be innocent, and looking for evidence of it. I was looking hard for things that would prove that Sr A was wrong.

What about you? Did you go iin thinking he was probably innocent?

 

[7_Sorrows]

i am really looking forward to seeing this movie if it makes it to the small town i moved to. if i were still in the city, i would have seen it opening day. i think philip seymour hoffman (might not have the spelling correct) is a brilliant actor. i saw him in his portrayal of truman capote and like his characters in other movies. although i am not a big fan of meryl streep, she looks like she does a good job in the movie from what i have seen from the trailer. from the moment i saw the first commercial for the movie, i knew i had to see it. it looks like it is pre-vatican II. it was hard not to peak at the spoilers, but i managed not to. if i don’t get a chance to see the movie within the next two weeks, i will have to come back to this thread and read the highlighted texts and their discussions and find out what happened.

 

[Scoop49]

I haven’t seen it and won’t, though my wife did. Hollywood shares the news media’s misplaced preoccupation with sexual abuse in the Catholic church and I refuse to support that with my movie dollars. I say “misplaced” because it is selective. There is far more sexual abuse in the public schools but this gets no coverage. If Hollywood pays attention to it at all it is in the form of male fantasy movies about teen boys lusting after sexy female teachers.
The more popular culture America slips away from Christianity, the more it useful it finds the Catholic church’s “un-American” aspects: lifelong celibacy, the confessional and the exclusively male clergy and hierarchy. It taps into these when it needs a quick fix: the conscience-torn cop in a TV series can believably poar out his concerns in the dark confessional. (As in CSI) No TV or Hollywood cop ever bares his soul to his evangelical pastor in a sunlit, Danish-modern bungalow church, though this must happen in the real world all the time.
In fact, the Catholic church is well on its way to becoming a Hollywood cliche, like eccentric ethnic grandparents, Russian gangsters and spaced-out surfers.

 

[Ryckie]

Hi everyone,
I also don’t like the constant battering our Church gets from the media, however, one of the ladies at my water aerobics class this morning saw this movie “Doubt” and she said she thought it was based on a true case and it actually is trying to get across what happens when false accusations are made and the the Nun is the one that does that and is the one in “Doubt” at the end.
May God bless us to also not jump to conclusions.