Moving mountains

[Tis_Bearself]

Here is an Eastern Orthodox saint who moved a mountain

https://www.oca.org/saints/lives/2016/04/05/101003-venerable-mark-the-anchorite-of-athens

 

[Zach]

Aren’t these Saints moving mountains similar to private revelation recognized by the Church but not needing to be believed by the faithful.

The mustard seed faith moving mountains is figurative similar to the other Gospel verses of the mustard seed of faith uprooting the tree and planting it in the sea or the prophetic mustard seed growing into a tree being compared to the Church’s small beginning growing into larger worldwide movement.

 

[EndTimes]

Do you know any Saint who was ever able to move a mountain from one location to another?

St. Peter who performed Miracles mind you - most likely could have… .

Thing is … why would Peter have wanted to - that is my question to you

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Aren’t these Saints moving mountains similar to private revelation recognized by the Church but not needing to be believed by the faithful.

You’re correct. The only reason I am posting them is because I was asked, “Did a saint ever actually move a mountain?” I have posted three saints who are said to have moved mountains. (In Googling, I noticed this is a question that seems to get asked a lot on different forums. Apparently a lot of people are really interested in whether saints literally moved mountains.)

I agree however that it is better to understand the passage figuratively, basically saying that “nothing is impossible with God”. There are many, many saints who are not alleged to have moved any physical mountains, but did other things that were very, very difficult through their faith in God. Sometimes they are not necessarily miraculous things, but just overcoming huge adversity, or persevering through great trials. Not to take away from those who did do actual miracles, but to limit the saying to just mountain-moving, or even miracles in general, is missing the point.

 

[AlNg]

why would Peter have wanted to - that is my question to you

As a guess for why anyone would want to move a mountain, it is well known that at higher elevations, the temperature is colder and that mountains of high altitude will have snowcaps for most of the year. So it might make sense to move a mountain to a desert region to insure that there is sufficient water from the melting snow.

 

[AlNg]

figurative vs literal

A lot of times I hear that people might say that God is a mathematician. This happens after they talk about the clockwork motion of the planets about the sun or in discussing various physical laws such as gravity. But the language of mathematics is very clearcut and literal. This is why i am stymied when I see so much figurative language used by Jesus, at least as recorded in the New Testament. Further, there is serious disagreement among Christians as to what is literal and what is figurative. Why would it not have been better to use clearcut, unambiguous, literal language instead of confusing figurative language open to various interpretations?

 

[speculator]

Jesus advised his disciples not to argue with the Pharisees.

He stays a little on a mountain and on coming back finds his disciples disputing because they were unable to cure a young epileptic.

Note that Jesus himself doesn’t mingle with the crowd but asks the father to bring the youngster in a quieter place.

In the bible many times an organisation is called “a mountain”.

In this case the mountain of his disciples would have had but to obey him and move away from the Pharisees and they could have found time and space to pray and cure the sick guy.

 

[speculator]

I find this explanation more adherent to the situation then taking the statement at face value which is, if not impossible, quite unlikely.

 

[speculator]

You don’t expect Jesus to talk like a mathematician.

You expect Jesus to talk firstly the common sense of the illustration and frequently the common sense of everybody’s experience.

It is common experience that mountains don’t move.

Jesus used figuratively words when the complexity of life and movement (much of which we cannot see) could not be expressed otherwise.

There is a muslim saying like that: “if the mountain doesn’t go to Mohamed then Mohamed goes to the mountain”.

 

[adgloriam]

But the language of mathematics is very clearcut and literal.

The language is human made, the physics equations are of God’s authorship.

Why would it not have been better to use clearcut, unambiguous, literal language

The Purpose of Parables.

Mt 13:10. The disciples approached him and said, “Why do you speak to them in parables?”

Mt 13:11. He said to them in reply, “Because knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven has been granted to you, but to them it has not been granted.

Mt 13:12. To anyone who has, more will be given and he will grow rich; from anyone who has not, even what he has will be taken away.

Mt 13:13. This is why I speak to them in parables, because ‘they look but do not see and hear but do not listen or understand.’

Mt 13:14. Isaiah’s prophecy is fulfilled in them, which says:

‘You shall indeed hear but not understand,

you shall indeed look but never see.

Mt 13:15. Gross is the heart of this people,

they will hardly hear with their ears, they have closed their eyes,

lest they see with their eyes

and hear with their ears

and understand with their heart and be converted,

and I heal them.’

 

[speculator]

He used only illustrations because they were not interested in religious matters but were attracted by concrete things like sheep=money figs seed household activity and so on.

 

[AlNg]

Mt 13:13. This is why I speak to them in parables, because ‘they look but do not see and hear but do not listen or understand.’

The problem remains that Christians disagree with what is figurative and what is literal.

You don’t expect Jesus to talk like a mathematician.

Why not? I don’t see any problem with expressing your thoughts clearly and unambiguously. Otherwise, what is said can be open to interpretation and even confusing.

You shall indeed hear but not understand

This of course is absolutely right. Many of us are stymied. But is it understandable that people do not understand if the idea is presented in an ambiguous and figurative manner?

 

[CRV]

The Father William Most Collection Commentary on the Gospels: The Thought of St. Matthew - “May we pray for a miracle? Yes, if the need is great enough. But we cannot be sure of getting it, for the promise here does not cover extraordinary things. There are misguided souls who whip themselves into an emotional state, and think then they will get even a miracle, thinking of the faith that moves mountains. But that faith is a different kind of faith, a charismatic faith, that is, it is a special gift of God. If He gives it, it is then certain He will follow through. But it depends not on us, but on Him, when and whether He gives the faith that works miracles.”

“But in the external or charismatic category the word is different. It is like the saying about having faith like a grain of mustard seed and being able to move mountains. In other words, this is a reference to the kind of faith that is basically a gift of God. Some have felt if they would work themselves into a lather in trying to have confidence, they should get a miracle. but that is not the meaning of this sort of faith. if God gives faith that a miracle will come, of course He will produce it, unless the person gives up his confidence.” (Bold is mine).

scroll down to the part titled “The Disciples Lacked the Most Basic Level of Faith (17:19-20)” - explains it quite well.

You might be interested in this book → Divine Parables Explained

 

[Zach]

Jesus thought the crowds were not yet ready to receive the message. That’s what he tells the Apostles when explaining to them alone the literal meaning of the parable of the sower. Even the Apostles weren’t ready for the full message until “the hour comes”. Then, as he tells them, he will no longer speak in parables but will speak clearly. In John 16:29 His disciples said, “Now you are talking plainly, and not in any figure of speech." The full message would only be revealed to the Apostles when the hour came, and then after Jesus departed the disciples would spread the full message to everyone else. In Jesus’ absence the holy spirit would guide the apostles and later the Church to the truth by discerning what was figurative and what was literal and to the true meaning behind the figurative.

 

[dochawk]

Is it really true that a person’s faith can move Mt. Everest all the way from the area near Tibet to Nevada, USA?

As God told Noah . . . “The goodness is that I"m going to send seven plagues–locusts, frogs, and more!”
“Lord, what could possibly be bad news given that?”
“You have to feel the environmental impact paperwork.”

:crazy_face:

Can you *imagine" how the EPA would react if you moved Mt. Everest here? (and you do, please its edges a full hundred niles from Las Vegas!") [on further thought, please place it on top of Yucca mountain–that would actually give a site above the 100 year flood plain for the nuclear waste, instead of below where it’s currently planned . . ]

:crazy_face:

Keep in mind that hyperbole was a common method then–such as ripping out your eye, and . . .

Why not? I don’t see any problem with expressing your thoughts clearly and unambiguously. Otherwise, what is said can be open to interpretation and even confusing.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.) adgloriam:

You don’t want to make me explain the Fundamental Theorem of Calculus in scriptural terms . . .

 

[AlNg]

You don’t want to make me explain the Fundamental Theorem of Calculus in scriptural terms

I suppose that you are joking while many other Christians are gravely serious and cannot agree on how to interpret certain Scriptural passages. As many people know, there are sincere, scholarly Protestant academics and theologians who say that John 6: 52-58 should not be taken in the literal sense as Roman Catholics do. And there are disagreements on other passages- should they be taken literally or figuratively? We even see that there are Christian saints who are reputed to have actually moved mountains by their faith, while others say that this passage on moving mountains is not to be taken literally.
OTOH, if you are not joking, I would like to see your version of the fundamental theorem of Calculus in Scriptural terms.
Many people have taken Euclidean geometry in high school. There you see information being communicated in a clear and unambiguous fashion so that there is no disagreement that the three angles of a triangle always add up to 180 degrees. All scholars agree with this in the case of Euclidean geometry. . There is no confusion whatsoever. Why should the bible present information about moving mountains, cursing fig trees or casting devils into pigs in such a fashion that Christians disagree on its meaning. And of course, there are major disagreements between Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics on how to interpret Matthew 16: 18 or John 15: 26.

In Jesus’ absence the holy spirit would guide the apostles and later the Church to the truth by discerning what was figurative and what was literal and to the true meaning behind the figurative.

Yes, of course, Catholics believe that they should turn to the Church for the correct interpretation. (Still, as already mentioned, there is ambiguity in interpretation about moving mountains since there are reports of saints who have moved mountains, while others say that the passage is not literal.).
However, there are many Christians who do not turn to the Church for the interpretation of a particular passage.

 

[Zach]

Even if Jesus never spoke in parables or figures of speech there would still be disagreements. Giving Peter the keys to the Kingdom is based on historical practice, yet Protestants and Catholics disagree on the meaning. And look at all the literal faith and works passages in Paul. There is as much or more disagreement here than in any parables. And the part about the preciseness of geometry, ordinary language will never be as precise as geometrical truths. Even if Jesus demonstrated truths with mathematical rigor how many people in that society or ours would have the background grasp what he is saying.

 

[CRV]

However, there are many Christians who do not turn to the Church for the interpretation of a particular passage.

Apologies AINg, I assumed you were Catholic. I hope my links and posts have not offended you.

I’ll leave the thread now to others who will be of more assistance to you.

 

[AlNg]

I hope my links and posts have not offended you.

Not at all. Quite the contrary. Your explanations and links are very helpful and much appreciated. I did not know about the book: Divine Parables explained and it is something that I was looking for.
Thank you for that.
However, in view of the fact that there have been saints who are reported to have actually moved mountains by their faith, I am still unclear as to whether this is to be taken literally or figuratively. It seems that Catholics do not agree on that.

 

[CRV]

Thank you for your kind reply.

Whilst I am Catholic, my own two cents on this, is that for 99% of the population it means whilst we have faith, it is only a little amount, and we need to have greater confidence and trust in God. If we did, then we’d be capable of a lot greater good than we normally are.

The other 1%, the Saints as you mentioned, I think are those who are so close to God, their Faith is so complete, deep - that God through their Faith in Him, performs miracles.

If it happened more frequently, or for everyone, then it wouldn’t be a miracle, but a common everyday occurence. And with that being the case, then where would the need be for us to grow in Faith and Trust in God?

We would soon come to rely on ourselves/man, instead of relying on Him.

ETA, that these ‘mountains’ can also be the obstacles each of us encounter in growing in holiness and closer to God, or perhaps these mountains are our doubts - I believe O Lord, help my unbelief? And if we had greater faith in God we would overcome these doubts, obstacles to growth in holiness etc, and we would be able to accomplish much greater good on this earth than we do now.