Moving mountains

[De_Maria]

But it does.

No.

The two-step process of (1) what looks to be a non-response from deity X is really a response of “no”, and (2) if a no response from deity X should be a yes response, the reason is that the request was not of X’s will works whether X is your god or you consider false.

Lol! Human reason, alone, without faith, will never understand God.

1 Corinthians 2:14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

I’m simply not using a proper noun to differentiate between the God of Christianity verses the general idea of a god.

You neither believe in our God nor their god. So?

I have to go with what the Bible says about God’s will. It says that we should care enough about the world that we can and should ask for intercession.

Ok.

It says that believers can do miraculous things provided they have the faith of a mustard seed.

Who judges whether you have the faith of a mustard seed?

It doesn’t impress non-believers that so often qualifiers and the like have to explain

And you’re an unimpressed non-believer, right.

why those with great faith can’t do what was assured.

You mean because people who describe themselves as having great faith have not received what they claim was assured them.

I know parents who have experienced great unwarranted and unneeded suffering.

You know parents who have experienced great suffering. Whether it was unwarranted or unneeded for their future glory, you have no idea.

They do all that they can to prevent their children from experiencing that same suffering, for they know that there is a difference between experiencing obstacles and withstanding suffering.

That’s wonderful. But suffering is redemptive. That is why God allows us to undergo suffering.

And to one thing you mentioned in an earlier post, I had to find the passage:
God literally gave the Israelites vipers when they asked for bread. See Numbers 21:4-6:

4 They traveled from Mount Hor along the route to the Red Sea, to go around Edom. But the people grew impatient on the way; 5 they spoke against God and against Moses, and said, “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? There is no bread! There is no water! And we detest this miserable food!” 6 Then the LORD sent venomous snakes among them; they bit the people and many Israelites died.

Lol! Did they ask for bread? Or did they threaten to kill Moses if he did not provide them with bread?

Read on:

7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord, and against thee; pray unto the Lord, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.

8 And the Lord said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.

I guess they learned who is the Boss.

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

No.

Let me put it another way. We often use processes to find out what is true or not true. If a process can be used to show two mutually exclusive thing as true, then we can’t use that process. A historian tries to determine who wrote Shakespeare’s play. He devises a process which shows that it was Sir Francis Bacon that did so. But then people use the same process to show all sorts of figures could have written Shakespeare’s plays. Now that doesn’t mean that Bacon didn’t write the plays, but it shows the process is faulty.

The same thing in a way applies here. The process which says no response really is a response saying “no”, and that a prayer that doesn’t seem to have a reason why it wasn’t with a “yes” is due to God’s will can be applied to any and all possible things, elements, deities that could be prayed to. It doesn’t mean God doesn’t exist. It doesn’t mean if he exists he doesn’t answer prayers, but it does show that these claims of God only seem true if one presupposes that they are true.

You neither believe in our God nor their god. So?

The whole point posts ago was that I used lowercase-g god to describe non-Christian gods and you accidentally took it to mean I was referring to the Christian uppercase-G God. I was hoping for a realization on this, but at this point skip it.

Who judges whether you have the faith of a mustard seed?

I don’t, but it would seem some do. And of those, a significant portion do not have their prayers answered positively. There is a reason why some call The Problem of Answer Prayer one of the hardest problems for believers.

And you’re an unimpressed non-believer, right.

You are correct on all three. I am unimpressed. I am non-believer. And I happen to be right.

You mean because people who describe themselves as having great faith have not received what they claim was assured them.

I know that not al people who claim to have great faith actually have it. But some of them do have such a faith and can’t move mountains or even have a sick loved one be healed.

You know parents who have experienced great suffering. Whether it was unwarranted or unneeded for their future glory, you have no idea.

There are a great many people who never recover from their suffering. What good is pain that shatters a person forever?

Lol! Did they ask for bread?

Yes.

Or did they threaten to kill Moses if he did not provide them with bread?

It doesn’t say that whatsoever. They complained to Moses that they had no bread. There were no threats of killing.

I guess they learned who is the Boss.

So you said that God doesn’t give a snake when you ask for bread. Then I showed where literally God did that. And the reasoning is that they apologized to Moses and God as they were being killed by snakes. Apologizing to someone who attacked them as one does when a mugger with a gun is unhappy you talked back to him, doesn’t negate that God gave them snakes when they asked for bread.

 

[speculator]

Snakes are common in the desert.
When you move without order you will have a snake in your improvised tent.

 

[De_Maria]

The same thing in a way applies here.

No, it doesn’t.

The process which says no response …

Already answered. My response will not change because you won’t accept it and want to repeat your same faulty logic.

…but at this point skip it.

Good idea.

I don’t, but it would seem some do.

Only God can read the heart. Men can guess. But men are frequently wrong.

And of those, a significant portion do not have their prayers answered positively.

And, if you are implying that these are truly faithful men in God’s eyes, they will understand and move on.

There is a reason why some call The Problem of Answer Prayer one of the hardest problems for believers.

I’m sure it is. I never said it wasn’t a problem for people to understand.

You are correct on all three. I am unimpressed. I am non-believer. And I happen to be right.

You are wrong on the third. And just to be precise, you are wrong.

I know that not al people who claim to have great faith actually have it. But some of them do have such a faith and can’t move mountains or even have a sick loved one be healed.

Because God knows what is best for their salvation.

There are a great many people who never recover from their suffering. What good is pain that shatters a person forever?

If they have joined their suffering with the suffering of Christ, it has gained them eternal life in heaven.

Lol! Did they ask for bread?

Yes.

Read it again and find the request. Perhaps you’re having trouble distinguishing a demand from a prayer.

It doesn’t say that whatsoever. They complained to Moses that they had no bread. There were no threats of killing.

You’re digressing on purpose. Show me the request for bread.

So you said that God doesn’t give a snake when you ask for bread. Then I showed where literally God did that…

You showed them complaining to Moses about bread. You don’t see the implied threat of thousands of people rioting and revolting against one man, but then again, you have an agenda to fulfill. But your agenda is wrong. And your logic has failed.

Anyway, why do you continue to repeat the same objection. Your objection is noted. We don’t agree.

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

You seem to have an odd idea that people should ask for the supernatural. While we recognize that the supernatural could occur, I think most of us are taught as children that asking for supernatural things is a violation of “thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God”.

But asking God to intercede by having a police officer drive by a person’s accident still requires God to step in and intercede. Does it make a difference to God if it looks like it could have happened by chance? Also. when you say children are told not to ask I’m assuming that such a rule forbidding requests is off the table when only a clearly supernatural request will suffice, right?

There is a higher possibility of being told “no” to a supernatural request because God sees no need for a supernatural request, as he can accomplish the same thing by a more ordinary means.

Is there a reference to that somewhere?

There is also a feeling among most believers that one needs to be very holy to ask for and obtain supernatural requests and most of us feel that we miss that mark. Perhaps this is a lack of faith or spiritual development on our part, but it is what it is.

I\m not sure if one’s holiness is the dividing line, so much as the situation at hand. We’re both just spitballing here, but I can definitely see someone who in one scenario (like the one I gave about driving into a ditch) where they choose a mundane prayer, then that same person asks for a miracle if confronted by a scenario where only something supernatural would help (e.g. praying for a dying child).

When making prayers we are more likely to ask for things that we think are more likely to actually occur, such as “Lord please send someone to help with my car” rather than “Lord please fly my car home to the garage.”

This is only my opinion, but I think this is a reflection of believers’ willingness to attribute mundane things as having occurred via God’s intercession. It’s not just a Catholic thing, but Christians in general seemed to be very apt to call what some people see as coincidence as divine intervention.

If you yourself do not pray regularly, you’re not going to understand the attitude of respect for God and not being proud or trivial that underlies this.

Furthermore, many Catholics are skeptical of much of the supernatural phenomena associated with the Church. I’m sure many for example would listen to the legends of the saints mentioned in this thread as moving mountains and say, “Well, that’s private revelation, I don’t have to believe it” because they don’t believe it is possible or that it happened. If it did happen, they’d look for a physical cause such as an optical illusion or an earthquake. I see this also as a lack of faith but again it is what it is.

I can see that. There appears to me (and as you say to some Catholics as well) a great deal of hagiography in these stories. Thanks for the response.

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

No, it doesn’t.

Already answered. My response will not change because you won’t accept it and want to repeat your same faulty logic.

I’m not asking you to change. I just want to make it clear that the explanations why God doesn’t seem to answer most prayers can be applied to why the rock in my hand doesn’t seem to answer prayers made to it.

Only God can read the heart. Men can guess. But men are frequently wrong.

But there’s no way to tell who does or doesn’t have the faith of a mustard seed. You can’t use the fact that they don’t get their prayers answered with a “yes” to determine who has such faith, because then it’s just a circular argument.

And, if you are implying that these are truly faithful men in God’s eyes, they will understand and move on.

Or they have a crisis of faith.

Read it again and find the request. Perhaps you’re having trouble distinguishing a demand from a prayer.

The question was whether they were asking for bread. They were. Angrily, but they were.

You’re digressing on purpose. Show me the request for bread.

"Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? There is no bread! There is no water! And we detest this miserable food!” They were angry about not having bread or water and wanted them.

You showed them complaining to Moses about bread. You don’t see the implied threat of thousands of people rioting and revolting against one man, but then again, you have an agenda to fulfill. But your agenda is wrong. And your logic has failed.

By that reasoning, 100 angry people at city council are threatening the lives of their councilmen. There’s no need to add death threats that are not there.

Anyway, why do you continue to repeat the same objection. Your objection is noted. We don’t agree.

This is a discussion forum, right? It’s not like we’re just going “is not” “is too”, but adding elements with each exchange which then means each of us also add counterpoints to each post.

 

[De_Maria]

I’m not asking you to change. I just want to make it clear…

You’ve been clearly understood from the beginning. You have clearly understood me. You simply don’t like my response, so you keep repeating the same objection in different words.

But there’s no way to tell who does …

God can tell.

Or they have a crisis of faith.

It’s all part of the test.

1 Timothy 1:19holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck with regard to the faith.

1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

The question was whether they were asking for bread. They were. Angrily, but they were.

We’re discussing prayer. Not violent protests and demands against Moses.

"Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? There is no bread! There is no water! And we detest this miserable food!” They were angry about not
having bread or water and wanted them.

There is no bread. That is a declarative statement.
There is no water. That is another declarative.
We detest the food. That is an objection.

Where is the prayer? Where is the request?

By that reasoning, 100 angry people at city council are threatening the lives of their councilmen. There’s no need to add death threats that are not there.

Those people were not the product of 2000 years of civilization. You can leave the US and go to Somalia or other countries where there are no city councils and see how mobs act. Or you can study some history of mob behaviour.

This is a discussion forum, right?

Right.

It’s not like we’re just going “is not” “is too”,

It’s getting there.

but adding elements with each exchange which then means each of us also add counterpoints to each post.

What elements have you added? You’ve been trying to twist demands into prayers. This is not adding elements. Adding elements would be like, “look here’s another Scripture.”