moving on to Islam

[hosemonkey]

Hosemonkey,

Spot on. I agree with you 100%

Thank you for your support. Thank God that some Americans can see the truth of what Islam has waiting for us if we are not vigilant. The problem is that we have become so PC that we are afraid to death of (gasp) hurting someone’s feelings. When that deranged jihadist slaughtered his fellow soldiers at Fort Benning, nobody dared mention the fact that he was moslem until hours after the attack. A lot of this stuff gets unreported because we are afraid of “offending” some whacko group. There are actually groups of moslems in Dearborn, Michigan, pushing for sharia law for moslems in that (large) moslem community. They are dismissed as whackos now, but their numbers are growing and their voting power is increasing. Do you remember how the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi nearly took over a town in Oregon? Can be done, easy.

 

[Kouyate42]

Posted by Kouyate on another forum regarding attempts to create “Sharia Zones” in U.K. cities. “Sharia”, isn’t that a “moslem” thing?

Firstly, that was in a completely different thread on a completely different matter.

Secondly, the majority of Muslims living in non-Muslim countries are content to live under the laws of the country they’re living in. It’s even in the Qur’an that if you’re living in a non-Muslim area, and the laws of that country are allowing you to live freely as you please, you should submit to the laws of that country.

Dealing with the bit you highlighted, the subject of sharia and women is long and complex. Do some research.

 

[hosemonkey]

Dealing with the bit you highlighted, the subject of sharia and women is long and complex. Do some research.

I have, and women still manage to get the short end of the stick…every time. As stated before, why would any western woman in her right mind, subject herself to Islam?

 

[Kouyate42]

I have, and women still manage to get the short end of the stick…every time. As stated before, why would any western woman in her right mind, subject herself to Islam?

Fact is that there are many happy Muslim converts to Islam, including women. A Muslim woman can be a happy one, just as you get many content Jewish and Christian women.

I’ve heard the following reasons stated for WOMEN converting to Islam.

• The focus on the sisterhood of all Muslimah (female Muslims). Indeed, Muslim women stick together and support one another. Nearly every mosque I’ve been to has women’s meetings and groups.
• The focus on inner beauty (and modesty). Islam teaches that a woman is not just about looks, something the West seems to have largely forgotten, and that she should be respected for the person she is, not just her looks. Hence the long clothes and hijab. Women in Islam ARE valued, despite what you might want to believe.
  Here’s a hadith which proves my point:

The Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was asked: Who among the people and after Allah should we be close to and respect? He replied: Your mother. Then who is next he was asked. He replied: Your mother. He was asked again as to who was next. Your mother, he replied, and then your father.

• Islam teaches the value of family, again something which is lacking in the West. Islam teaches that the most important unit is the family, with both parents having a role in bringing up children. Children are taught to respect BOTH their parents, including their mother (see that above hadith for evidence).
• Islam teaches that women were created with an EQUAL status to men. From Surah Al-Nisa:

O mankind, fear your Lord, who created you from one soul and created from it its mate and dispersed from both of them many men and women.

There’s also the simplicity of the Islamic theological system and the discipline which Islam requires which may also be a draw for women converts.

In short, Islam is not as bad as you’re making it out to be.

 

[Terraius]

Koyuate, as a former Muslim I must agree and disagree with you.

Yes, the Quran has alot of good value to it in regards to many issues including the one about Womens rights.

But the fundamental point that you are missing. There is a theory known as ‘replationism’, I forget the Arabic term for it, but basically, it states, that any LATER revelations that Muhammed received from Gabriel that contradicted his former ones replaced them completely.

One example, early in Muhammeds revelations, he held a large respect for Christians and Jews. Understandable because he was ripping from their religion completely. Passages such as ‘Respect the people of the Book for they have priests and monks among them who are not arrogant’ came about and taught toleration with the people of the book. (Jews and Christians)

However, later in Muhammeds life, he had this revelation.

‘Take up arms and kill all infidels who refuse to convert.’ (Paraphrased)

This system can also be applied to Women. Yes, early in Muhammeds life he had plenty of good things to say about women. Later in his life as he gained power and could do what he wanted without retribution, he had later revelations in the Quran and in Sharia that allow men to abuse and kill their wives and daughters.

Take it how you want, but even an Atheist will look at that and say its nothing more then a mind control/power game Muhammed played.

Hitler didnt IMMEDIATELY come out and start killing Jews.

No, he subtly worked his way up to the top, then steam rolled his agenda.

Fr. Benedict Grosschel has a good book on this. ‘The Psychology of History’. History repeats itself for a reason.

My :twocents:

 

[hosemonkey]

Koyuate, as a former Muslim I must agree and disagree with you.

Yes, the Quran has alot of good value to it in regards to many issues including the one about Womens rights.

But the fundamental point that you are missing. There is a theory known as ‘replationism’, I forget the Arabic term for it, but basically, it states, that any LATER revelations that Muhammed received from Gabriel that contradicted his former ones replaced them completely.

You have put your finger on the great flaw in this false and deceptive religion. The fact that earlier revelations and directives can be superceded by later ones. mormonism has the same problem. Old revelations(“Holy and Sacred Truths”) are replaced by the “new and improved” Truths. The practice of polygamy, for example. Muhammed got on top and started having “better” revelations, more in accordance with how he would like things to be, just like Joseph Smith.
So, The OP can dip her toes in the poison pool of Islam,but had better be cautious about getting all the way in.

 

[Bezant]

You have put your finger on the great flaw in this false and deceptive religion. The fact that earlier revelations and directives can be superceded by later ones. mormonism has the same problem. Old revelations(“Holy and Sacred Truths”) are replaced by the “new and improved” Truths. The practice of polygamy, for example. Muhammed got on top and started having “better” revelations, more in accordance with how he would like things to be, just like Joseph Smith.
So, The OP can dip her toes in the poison pool of Islam, but had better be cautious about getting all the way in.

So Hosemonkey,

If Islam is a false, deceptive religion how do you know Christianity isn’t the false, deceptive product of early, power-hungry disciples?

The OP isn’t converting to Islam, by the way.

 

[hosemonkey]

So Hosemonkey,

If Islam is a false, deceptive religion how do you know Christianity isn’t the false, deceptive product of early, power-hungry disciples?

Are you as a serious Christian, asking me that question? Do you believe in the promises of Jesus Christ? And in the faith of the Apostles and martyrs? Do you know of the many attempts by Islam to conquer the west and to subjugate and subordinate Christianity to Islam? Surely, you jest. Islam is not the True Faith, founded by and based upon Jesus Christ, The Son of God. It is totally Other, and false. God does not create two Truths that are opposite and in opposition to one another.

 

[Bezant]

Are you as a serious Christian, asking me that question?

Duh.

Are you, assuming you’re a serious Christian, going to answer it?

Do you know of the many attempts by Islam to conquer the west and to subjugate and subordinate Christianity to Islam?

Do you know of the St. Bartholomew’s Day Massacre?

I’m quite familiar with Islamic history, but I don’t even need to ref the obvious Christian attempts to subordinate Islam when there’s plenty of Christian attempts to persecute and subordinate each other. Explain, please, why you’re silent on the persecution of non-Catholics.

Islam is not the True Faith, founded by and based upon Jesus Christ, The Son of God. It is totally Other, and false. God does not create two Truths that are opposite and in opposition to one another.

Frankly, all of the above is unecessarily rudandant. I never claimed Islam was the True Faith, so it’s best that you not repeat something on which we already agree.

Going back to my original question, if you’re confident that Islam is essentially a poisonous scam, how are you confident that Christianity isn’t a poisonous scam?

 

[ibneahmad]

My dearest friend from highschool is turning to Islam. These last few years I have been busy and had to change our friendship because I work and now have a family. She called me a few days ago and invited me to her conversion. I admit I know little about islam but it scared me and I don’t know what to tell her. She is married to a catholic man his facebook page shows he is angry at her and is afraid for his kids. what do I say at this point?

Why are you afraid of her? If you are truthful; you should have some truthful argument to present before her.

 

[hosemonkey]

Duh.

Are you, assuming you’re a serious Christian, going to answer it?

I have already answered the question. Do you have doubts about the faith that you claim? So if Christianity is not the True Faith, then what is? And how far “East” are you leaning? All the way to Mecca, perhaps?

 

[runningdude]

Be a good idea if you did a little reading. You’ll find that the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, the senior moslem cleric in the middle east, was a great admirer and ally of Adolf Hitler and worked very hard for the success of Naziism among moslems until the British chased him out of Palestine. The “Arab dictators” that you mention maintained their power with the aid of moslem clerics who cited the koran as their authority, likewise their treatment of women. If women were indeed treated badly in the West, we have certainly progressed past that point. Islam is still firmly rooted in the seventh century, both in it’s thinking and in it’s actions. When the oil and the money runs out, they will be right back to where they came from, in the seventh century.

You know, I love how every thread on this forum that even so much as mentions Muslims eventually blames all of them for everything any Muslim did. I could point out what happened in Iran - installing a “Shah”, or how about the French in Lybia?

 

[Bezant]

I have already answered the question. Do you have doubts about the faith that you claim? So if Christianity is not the True Faith, then what is? And how far “East” are you leaning? All the way to Mecca, perhaps?

Hosemonkey,

Hey, if you insist, you’re entitled to be wrong.

That you refuse to answer the original question intelligently (or the additional questions in the last posts), and moreover, your un-Christlike response – shows more doubts about your Christian standing than mine, mate.

In any case, since you consistently ignore, or won’t read dissenting posts in this thread, I’m not surprised this question is well above your head. I have an answer to my original question.

[P.S. In case you didn’t know, you belong to an Eastern religion.]

 

[hosemonkey]

Hosemonkey,

Hey, if you insist, you’re entitled to be wrong.

I have answered your question. That you do not seem to be able to understand it is not my problem. For you to raise such a question smacks of disloyalty, or perhaps that you are not convinced of the truth of the faith that you claim. I think the latter.

 

[hosemonkey]

Hosemonkey,

Hey, if you insist, you’re entitled to be wrong.

I have answered your question. That you do not seem to be able to understand it is not my problem. For you to raise such a question smacks of disloyalty, or perhaps that you are not convinced of the truth of the faith that you claim. I think the latter. Have a nice day.

 

[Bezant]

I have answered your question. That you do not seem to be able to understand it is not my problem. For you to raise such a question smacks of disloyalty, or perhaps that you are not convinced of the truth of the faith that you claim. I think the latter. Have a nice day.

Rubbish. It’s clear that you tried to divert the central matter and make a cop-out because you realised my original question was raised as a trap. You’re too scared to lose.

 

[dolphinlove]

Fact is that there are many happy Muslim converts to Islam, including women. A Muslim woman can be a happy one, just as you get many content Jewish and Christian women.

And some of these ‘happy converts’ as you call them cant wait till they get back to their original religion. 75% in fact when they find out what the real islam is and not the watered down version of islam.
councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=4198.0

I’ve heard the following reasons stated for WOMEN converting to Islam.

• The focus on the sisterhood of all Muslimah (female Muslims). Indeed, Muslim women stick together and support one another. Nearly every mosque I’ve been to has women’s meetings and groups.

That is because they need support groups, as women in islam are treated rather poorly.
There are several passages suggesting women are beneath men, not as smart as men, can be beaten by their husband, more women in hell than men etc. Of course you are going to need a support group dealing with issues, and many others like these!

• The focus on inner beauty (and modesty). Islam teaches that a woman is not just about looks, something the West seems to have largely forgotten, and that she should be respected for the person she is, not just her looks. Hence the long clothes and hijab. Women in Islam ARE valued, despite what you might want to believe.
  Here’s a hadith which proves my point:

The Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was asked: Who among the people and after Allah should we be close to and respect? He replied: Your mother. Then who is next he was asked. He replied: Your mother. He was asked again as to who was next. Your mother, he replied, and then your father.

Why are you comparing the west against a religion? The ‘west’ isnt a Christian religion the last time i checked, however, Catholicism is a religion, and I will compare islam with that.
Catholics do dress modestly, in fact, i myself dress modestly.
Here is what the bible says:
1 tim 9 Similarly, women are to wear suitable clothes and to be dressed quietly and modestly, without braided hair or gold and jewellery or expensive clothes;
10 their adornment is to do the good works that are proper for women who claim to be religious.
Ive been to Egypt, and i can assure you, women are not respected, they are harrassed on a daily basis, in saudi, they cant drive, cant go out without a male relative, have to sit in the back of shops etc, do you call that respecting women?? And i wont even start on how the taliban treat women!

• Islam teaches the value of family, again something which is lacking in the West. Islam teaches that the most important unit is the family, with both parents having a role in bringing up children. Children are taught to respect BOTH their parents, including their mother (see that above hadith for evidence).

And Christianity doesnt teach this??? Have you been locked in a cupboard???
Eph 6 1 Children, be obedient to your parents in the Lord – that is what uprightness demands.
2 The first commandment that has a promise attached to it is: Honour your father and your mother,
3 and the promise is: so that you may have long life and prosper in the land.
4 And parents, never drive your children to resentment but bring them up with correction and advice inspired by the Lord.

• Islam teaches that women were created with an EQUAL status to men. From Surah Al-Nisa:

O mankind, fear your Lord, who created you from one soul and created from it its mate and dispersed from both of them many men and women.

I dont see how this says women and men are equal, however, there is an abundance of text showing how women are less superior than man. Refer to the link above.

There’s also the simplicity of the Islamic theological system and the discipline which Islam requires which may also be a draw for women converts.

In short, Islam is not as bad as you’re making it out to be.

Yes it is.

 

[hosemonkey]

Rubbish. It’s clear that you tried to divert the central matter and make a cop-out because you realised my original question was raised as a trap. You’re too scared to lose.

Lose what? You posed a foolish question and I don’t have time to answer foolish questions. If you wish to defend the the premise that there is more than one True Faith, that is your problem, I know that Christianity, and particularly Catholicism, founded by Our Lord Himself, is the one, True Faith and that Islam is false. If you continue to maintain that you are Catholic and do not believe this, then I doubt both your Catholicity and your sincerity. My last word to you on the subject.

 

[dzheremi]

Ugh. More dawah. I hate that this place is such a fertile ground for Islamic proselytizing because Catholics can’t seem to make up their minds on Islam. Get it together, people.

I can’t tell you what to do, OP, but here are some things that I wouldn’t do if I were you:

• Don’t go to her conversion ceremony or any other religious ceremonies with her, lest you fall prey to relativism or appear to endorse her choice.
• Don’t stop being her friend. How many Christians do you think she’ll meet in the mosque? Zero. You could effectively now be a very positive influence on, if not her religious path (as that is really between her and God), at least her perspective on Christians and Christianity, neither of which are fairly or even sensibly dealt with in any aspect of Islam.
• Don’t be a wedge between her and her husband. Others have pointed out that Muslim women cannot be married to non-Muslims, and that is true, but we have had at least one other case of a poster here on CAF that was in such a situation after his conversion to Christianity from Islam (and then to agnosticism or atheism from Christianity, I can’t remember which; the poster’s name was “Algebra”). So it does happen, and maybe more frequently in the West given the fluid nature of religious membership in Western societies (I have read that something on the order of 60% of new converts to Islam leave the religion within two years, so also don’t give up hope that she may change her mind). The important is, of course, to respect her marriage and not to get in between any arguments that may happen in it out of some sense of loyalty to the husband due to your shared religion (I’m not saying you feel that, but I could see how that could happen since she is making a wrong choice). Ultimately just as only Satan got her into this mess, only God can get her out. Pray, pray, and then when you’re exhausted from praying, pray some more!

May the peace, comfort, and guidance of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ be with you, your friend, her husband, and everyone else involved in her life.

 

[Terraius]

Bezant,

It is easy to see that Christianity is very much not founded on power hungry principals.

Secular, Pagan Roman Historians documented trials and persecutions by the Christians. They never had any strive for power, they swore oaths to not lie, cheat, steal, and to pay back debts. They congregated in homes to have mass. Only centuries later did Christianity start gaining prominence under Constantine.

Islam in retrospect has been bent on domination since day one. So your argument trying to strawman the classical ‘Well if Islam is false then X Y and Z religion must be false!’ is incorrect, Im sorry to say, and has been disproven in far greater detail then this before.