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Trebor135
Guest
The “Warning”? Do you know something we don’t about the plans of the Lord?
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ibneahmad
Guest
See what argument she gives; then counter her with your own argument; if one does not find a good argument then one could consult others for a good argument. Only a good and reasonabe argument will work.
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Trebor135
Guest
If you explain your concerns about your friend’s decision to convert, they’ll know you aren’t suffering from the maladies of indifferentism and relativism. Others who might see you together with your friend at the movies, in a grocery store, or anywhere in public would be happy about, indifferent to, or disapproving of the interreligious relationship. They wouldn’t automatically wonder, “Does their religion really not matter to them that much?”
Jesus had no problem befriending open sinners, like tax collectors, but he wouldn’t have, and didn’t, put himself in a situation where he’d be with them when they were actually engaging in that sinful behaviour.
That’s correct. But going to the ceremony would be a little like getting into the car with the intoxicated friend: setting aside one’s concerns and risking one’s own well-being so as not to upset them or take a stand.
If earnest pleas for your friend to make rational choices failed, taking away their car keys wasn’t feasible, and they went ahead and drove off anyway, you could still remain friends. After all, you’d done what you could to prevent them from making that profoundly ill-advised decision and refused to be present when it was implemented.
A line has to be drawn somewhere. Truth is at issue, not mere opinion, political or otherwise.
You could do that. But why risk offending all the Muslims present and open yourself up to attempts at da’wa (which would cause you to feel really awkward or could endanger your faith: most Christians, understandably, wouldn’t know enough to refute Muslim claims)? You could just as easily express your disappointment by politely declining the invitation.
Going to a bar- or batmitzvah would be different because the person in question was a kid (by Western standards of what thirteen-year-olds are) and already Jewish to begin with. And those kind of events are occasions for social/communal gatherings, not just religious ones. Even so, I’d have to think about the situation before attending, because I do see something of a similarity here.
But as for attending a Jewish wedding, I would see no issue there. All kinds of people get invited to such events, and people know that. Western society is fairly ethnically and religiously heterogeneous, and people of different backgrounds intermingle, so no one should be shocked to see Gentiles at a Jewish wedding.
That’s a sticky situation. I would have simply told the child that they need not worry, since God is merciful and forgiving toward all repentant souls. Discussing religious differences in any depth might just confuse them, depending on how young they are.
No, but this friend is old enough to understand and deal with differences over strongly held religious beliefs. If I had a kid (haha!) and were going to have them baptized, it wouldn’t be intuitive to invite a Muslim friend. Even if I did, I’d understand if they didn’t feel comfortable attending.
That would be a very unfortunate, parochial attitude to take. Caterpillars eventually have to come out of their cocoon and become butterflies able to deal with the challenges the world throws at them. As the Son of God himself once said:
Matthew 5:15-16: [15] “Nor do men light a lamp and put it under a bushel, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house.
[16] Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.”
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Steven_John
Guest
Rather than good arguments i proposed in my early post and of others (in kind ways), it can at times be helpful to research together in both religions and even others.
This is a very sharing way that logic shows truth, it also eliminates other options of influence.
As in so many threads we see there are very nice people in all religions and they inspire us to believe as they do.
While this may not apply here it is also good for making sure people don’t go to very bias and fanatic web sites.
On the journey you will both be blessed and always remember personal prayers / duas to “The One True G-d” are most powerful, a wise one may even initiate simple shared prayers for guidance etc. to G-d by this title.
May you and her be blessed
This is a very sharing way that logic shows truth, it also eliminates other options of influence.
As in so many threads we see there are very nice people in all religions and they inspire us to believe as they do.
While this may not apply here it is also good for making sure people don’t go to very bias and fanatic web sites.
On the journey you will both be blessed and always remember personal prayers / duas to “The One True G-d” are most powerful, a wise one may even initiate simple shared prayers for guidance etc. to G-d by this title.
May you and her be blessed
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joshrp
Guest
John the Baptist is the patron Saint of converts. Try praying to him first.My dearest friend from highschool is turning to Islam. These last few years I have been busy and had to change our friendship because I work and now have a family. She called me a few days ago and invited me to her conversion. I admit I know little about islam but it scared me and I don’t know what to tell her. She is married to a catholic man his facebook page shows he is angry at her and is afraid for his kids.what do I say at this point?
Just have a conversation with you friend and tell her you are not sure if you should go. If she asks you why just have an honest conversation about it. You probably do not want to encourage her to walk away from Christ, but you don’t want to disrespect her right to choose her own faith.
Ask her to pray with you over it, and see if anything comes out of that. Just have a conversation together with God and see if He says anything to either of you.
Let me know if any of this helps you, Ok?
I will pray to John the Baptist and Blessed John Paul II for you and your friend, ok?
God bless you both,
Joshua
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AngryAtheist8
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Remind her that if her husband converted to Islam too she would essentially have no rights under that religious system.My dearest friend from highschool is turning to Islam. These last few years I have been busy and had to change our friendship because I work and now have a family. She called me a few days ago and invited me to her conversion. I admit I know little about islam but it scared me and I don’t know what to tell her. She is married to a catholic man his facebook page shows he is angry at her and is afraid for his kids.
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AngryAtheist8
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To be honest, I look on willing female converts to Islam with a mixture of pity and disbelief (according to the Koran a woman’s worth is literally half that of a man’s). As well as a certain level of disgust if their bringing any underage daughters with them.
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AngryAtheist8
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Then why is Muslim practice in Islamic countries (such as Iran, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Egypt, Somalia, etc.) nothing like what you describe?
Why are women in those places treated with such murderous loathing and contempt?
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AngryAtheist8
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Why would rejecting Islam mean that you have to accept Christianity?
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AngryAtheist8
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Its also worth noting that the majority of Egyptian girls are forced to undergo the most brutal, invasive, and harmful form of Female Genital Mutilation (where the vagina is literally sewn shut
). You can’t tell me that is respect.
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AngryAtheist8
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Saudi Arabia and the Taliban are theocracies, their policies are explicitly religious and Islamic!
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AngryAtheist8
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I would be the first to call that sexist and unfair, but its not as bad as fathers killing their daughter after their daughters have been raped, for bringing dishonor onto the family (which is standard practice in many Muslim communities).
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hosemonkey
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D’accord. I call to mind the horrific photo of a moslem older brother shooting his little sister to death in the street for daring to talk to a boy that her family did not approve of. They are a depraved and backward people, ruled by their 7th century “religion”.
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Bezant
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Obviously, although that’s not exactly what I said.
Are you saying that the early Christians were always perfect, just because of particular historians accounts? That’s what you’re suggesting.
Domination, meaning “what”?
If you mean domination as bringing every member of humanity under Islam, duh.
But why fault Islam for wanting everyone to be a Muslim, when you seem to have no problem that the Catholic Church wants everyone to accept the truth of the Catholic Church?
I don’t see it happening, but if there’s any religion that can ever “dominate” the world its Catholicism. If you haven’t noticed, Islam is too dispersed to settle its own problems as definitively as the pope, let alone challenge the rest of the world.
There’s legitimate criticism against Islam and the Muslim world, but “They’re bad because they want everyone to join their group” is a childish argument unless you have a general problem against evangelism, since you take no issue with the Catholic Church doing the same.
The question demands that Hosemonkey answer how he knows Christianity is true (e.g., through a trust in Scripture, Sacred Tradition, Magisterial authority) and why those sources are true – not relatively (for him), but universally (you, me, everybody). His answers can only prove Christianity has relative truth.
If he can’t prove Christianity’s universal truth, he must concede that he can’t prove Islam’s universal ‘falseness’ – he does not need to say that Islam is universally true or even relatively true.
That concession means admitting error, which is why he avoided it completely and made the idiotic, cowardly argument that I must be a ‘secret’ Muslim posing as a Catholic.
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Bezant
Guest
"*Fact is that there are many happy Muslim converts to Islam, including women. A Muslim woman can be a happy one, just as you get many content Jewish and Christian women.
I’ve heard the following reasons stated for WOMEN converting to Islam.
There’s also the simplicity of the Islamic theological system and the discipline which Islam requires which may also be a draw for women converts.
In short, Islam is not as bad as you’re making it out to be."
Firstly, you seem to assume because they’re predominantly Muslim, ‘Muslim practice’ is the same in those countries.
Secondly, explain why are there successful, educated women in some of the countries you mentioned?
(news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8235264.stm)
(huffingtonpost.com/faisal-abbas/muna-abu-sulayman-saudi-a_b_177615.html)
(ameinfo.com/32998.html)
None of those countries deserve an award for women’s rights. Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia and Iran (I know less about Somalia) are especially backwards on women’s rights. But I definitely wouldn’t put Egypt in the same group, although considering how advanced it is, it’s been inexcusably lazy addressing sexual harassment.
I’ve heard the following reasons stated for WOMEN converting to Islam.
- The focus on the sisterhood of all Muslimah (female Muslims). Indeed, Muslim women stick together and support one another. Nearly every mosque I’ve been to has women’s meetings and groups.
- The focus on inner beauty (and modesty). Islam teaches that a woman is not just about looks, something the West seems to have largely forgotten, and that she should be respected for the person she is, not just her looks. Hence the long clothes and hijab. Women in Islam ARE valued, despite what you might want to believe.
Here’s a hadith which proves my point:
- Islam teaches the value of family, again something which is lacking in the West. Islam teaches that the most important unit is the family, with both parents having a role in bringing up children. Children are taught to respect BOTH their parents, including their mother (see that above hadith for evidence).
- Islam teaches that women were created with an EQUAL status to men. From Surah Al-Nisa:
There’s also the simplicity of the Islamic theological system and the discipline which Islam requires which may also be a draw for women converts.
In short, Islam is not as bad as you’re making it out to be."
Then why is Muslim practice in Islamic countries (such as Iran, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Egypt, Somalia, etc.) nothing like what you describe?
Why are women in those places treated with such murderous loathing and contempt?
Firstly, you seem to assume because they’re predominantly Muslim, ‘Muslim practice’ is the same in those countries.
Secondly, explain why are there successful, educated women in some of the countries you mentioned?
(news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8235264.stm)
(huffingtonpost.com/faisal-abbas/muna-abu-sulayman-saudi-a_b_177615.html)
(ameinfo.com/32998.html)
None of those countries deserve an award for women’s rights. Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia and Iran (I know less about Somalia) are especially backwards on women’s rights. But I definitely wouldn’t put Egypt in the same group, although considering how advanced it is, it’s been inexcusably lazy addressing sexual harassment.
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Bezant
Guest
Then why is Muslim practice in Islamic countries (such as Iran, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Egypt, Somalia, etc.) nothing like what you describe?
Why are women in those places treated with such murderous loathing and contempt?
This is not a religious practice. There are Coptic women who’ve also suffered FGM.Its also worth noting that the majority of Egyptian girls are forced to undergo the most brutal, invasive, and harmful form of Female Genital Mutilation (where the vagina is literally sewn shut
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Trebor135
Guest
This discussion is getting tedious.
The question should not be “How widespread is particularly reprehensible behaviour X, Y, and Z among Muslims?” or “Can we find success stories in the Muslim world where human rights are making progress?”
The question should rather be “Do the teachings of Islam, as derived from the Qur’an and Hadith and expounded upon by early, knowledgeable Muslim scholars, cause this behaviour?”
The question should not be “How widespread is particularly reprehensible behaviour X, Y, and Z among Muslims?” or “Can we find success stories in the Muslim world where human rights are making progress?”
The question should rather be “Do the teachings of Islam, as derived from the Qur’an and Hadith and expounded upon by early, knowledgeable Muslim scholars, cause this behaviour?”
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Bezant
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Thank-you for pointing that out to me. I will check.
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Bezant
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You’re right.
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Trebor135
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Also…
Next, Islam doesn’t want domination of the hearts of men. It requires the subjugation of all peoples in the temporal sense. The options given to conquered non-Muslims throughout history and as taught by Muslim texts and believers, as I understand this matter, are as follows:
First of all, I don’t see Catholics evangelizing Muslims at all. I do see Muslims evangelizing nominally Christian Westerners, though. We have at least one such convert to Islam at CAF.
Next, Islam doesn’t want domination of the hearts of men. It requires the subjugation of all peoples in the temporal sense. The options given to conquered non-Muslims throughout history and as taught by Muslim texts and believers, as I understand this matter, are as follows:
- If Christian, Jewish, Zoroastrian, or pagan: convert to Islam.
- If Christian, Jewish, Zoroastrian, or perhaps pagan: pay the jizya (poll tax) to maintain your religion. You may not, however, proselytize Muslims or seek to construct new places of worship or repair old ones.
- If Christian, Jewish, Zoroastrian, or pagan: if (1) and (2) are refused, face the just penalty for haughty obstinacy toward the Truth™, which is being put to the sword.
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