Moving to another pew when someone sits in front of us, a scandal?

[Book_Worm]

Mark, I agree with your views on appropriate dress at Mass. At my age, dressing modestly is not an issue; my preference is to cover as much of my body as I logically can. And I do dress appropriately; most weeks we are the most formally dressed family at Mass, down to my two young grandsons.

However, there is something about I find off-putting about the argument you used about dressing for secular occasions, which I’ve heard many times before. I just can’t believe that God looks at our state of dress in the same way that the world does. Does God really judge us as the world does, by our appearance? If a teenager is at Mass every Sunday, does it really matter if his legs are covered by denim rather than khaki? If a girl is volunteering to help with the children’s Mass, does God really care if she has loafers or flip-flops on her feet? If I were to attend an Oscar party, the reasons I would have for choosing my ensemble would be completely worldly and completely irrelevant in choosing what too wear to Mass.

I guess I think that God’s values are very different from those of celebrities and the famous.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Mark, I agree with your views on appropriate dress at Mass. At my age, dressing modestly is not an issue; my preference is to cover as much of my body as I logically can. And I do dress appropriately; most weeks we are the most formally dressed family at Mass, down to my two young grandsons.

However, there is something about I find off-putting about the argument you used about dressing for secular occasions, which I’ve heard many times before. I just can’t believe that God looks at our state of dress in the same way that the world does. Does God really judge us as the world does, by our appearance? If a teenager is at Mass every Sunday, does it really matter if his legs are covered by denim rather than khaki? If a girl is volunteering to help with the children’s Mass, does God really care if she has loafers or flip-flops on her feet? If I were to attend an Oscar party, the reasons I would have for choosing my ensemble would be completely worldly and completely irrelevant in choosing what too wear to Mass.

I guess I think that God’s values are very different from those of celebrities and the famous.

I personally think it looks disrespectful to the Lord to “dress down,” but I’d rather see someone in jeans and a tee-shirt at Mass than not come at all. And really, they might not have “good” clothes. They might have only a casual wardrobe. What I can’t abide, though, are the flip-flops. People should wear actual shoes for health reasons. This applies to flip-flops in restaurants, hair salons, grocery stores, etc. Shoes and shirts should be required at Mass and everywhere else, and flip-flops aren’t really shoes.

 

[LongingSoul]

People should wear actual shoes for health reasons. This applies to flip-flops in restaurants, hair salons, grocery stores, etc. Shoes and shirts should be required at Mass and everywhere else, and flip-flops aren’t really shoes.

I’m very hygiene conscious as a rule which influences my opinion on communion on the tongue. I’m not clear about your theory about thongs (that’s what we call the footwear you speak of in Australia)… They are very common at Masses in our tropical Queensland climate but there has never been a hygiene argument against them?? What is the hygiene argument?

 

[GreyWings]

OK I shouldn’t have posted anything. And for the record, I was sleepy and tired past-midnight to care for grammar. Besides, I talked to that girl in Spanish as I was living in a Spanish-speaking Country back then.

(last post).

It’s cool, E_7, please give yourself some grace here, you actually brought up a great question/point with courage which I applaud! I understood what you were asking in your OP as many other Catholics have wondered the same. like myself.

And not for nothin’, and just throwing this out there, but my mama, an old school Irish Catholic raised in the Church pre-Vatican II, taught me to dress nicely for mass. The Catholic Church is full of such beauty: our churches, gardens, artwork, the Vatican itself! Maybe it’s just me, but dressing beautifully for mass and with modesty (and modesty is only Biblical) is pretty much the status quo… or maybe I’m just old fashioned like that.

TL;DR point: Mamas, teach yo daughters on how to dress!

 

[Lily_Bernans]

I suppose it wouldn’t matter so much if the flip-flop wearer kept his or her shoes on. But I see people slide them off all the time and put their bare feet on the carpet, the floor, and for heaven’s sake, on the back of the pew in front of them! That is just not clean and hygienic. I see it in restaurants, too, which is horrible.

sterishoe.com/foot-care-blog/foot-health-hygiene/flip-flops-a-danger-to-your-health/

glamour.com/health-fitness/blogs/vitamin-g/2009/08/yuck-alert-your-flip-flops-may

 

[Lily_Bernans]

I’m very hygiene conscious as a rule which influences my opinion on communion on the tongue. I’m not clear about your theory about thongs (that’s what we call the footwear you speak of in Australia)… They are very common at Masses in our tropical Queensland climate but there has never been a hygiene argument against them?? What is the hygiene argument?

I suppose it wouldn’t matter so much if the flip-flop wearer kept his or her shoes on. But I see people slide them off all the time and put their bare feet on the carpet, the floor, and for heaven’s sake, on the back of the pew in front of them! That is just not clean and hygienic. I see it in restaurants, too, which is horrible. Bubonic plague has even been found in flip-flops! (BTW, I call them thongs, too, but it seems Americans reserve that word for an undergarment.)

sterishoe.com/foot-care-b…o-your-health/

glamour.com/health-fitnes…flip-flops-may

 

[DeniseNY]

Hi all,

I’m such a person that if people that are dressed immodestly for Mass sits in front of us where we can see them, I get up from the pew without thinking it twice and move somewhere else where it doesn’t distract me or hubby. I do not want to give the devil the pleasure of tempting me by watching the immodest or by not paying attention to Mass for being annoyed.

I could care less if it is seen rude by others in Mass. But is it scandalous of us to get up and move from pews just when these immodest married couple arrived?

It is not just the wife who wears short dresses and her undergarments are marked, and her child grabs her and pulls her dress up a few times , but the husband too wears very tight shirts and very tight khaki pants that accentuate his butt. It is not only annoying to have this couple in sight, but also repulsive.

Thoughts?

Are you making a spectacle of moving or are you just quietly and discreetly moving to another pew? I think if you really feel that you have to move, it’s not any kind of scandal; but perhaps instead you can look at it as an opportunity to ask God for help with dealing better with things that annoy you? This is something I struggle with.

 

[MarkInOregon]

I see your point, Mark, and outside of Mass, I totally agree with it. However, we only encounter the living Christ today in the Eucharist. He doesn’t walk the earth. We have no opportunity to travel to Israel to meet him or see him from afar. We can only meet the living Christ in the Eucharist. Unless I’m wrong, that is why he instituted it. So we could meet with him after his ascension. But yes, I do see your point, and even though I believe babies who cry the full hour or children who are disruptive should be taken to one of the soundproof rooms, I agree with you.

Even if your post would have been directed at me, I wouldn’t mind. You expressed yourself in a loving and caring way, and I respect you for that. The “tone” of one’s post can change a life. Thank you for using a Christlike tone in yours.

Thank you for your kind words. Tone can be so hard to communicate (at least for me) in the written word and it is easy to read the wrong tone into others posts–so I always try to give them the benefit of the doubt–thank you for doing that for me.

I understand what you are saying but Christ said, “As you did it to one of these, the least of my brethren, you did it to me” (Mt 25:40). To me this says that I do indeed meet the the living Christ in others also–I just have to see it (and this is something I struggle with and constantly work on). I don’t think I am excused from finding Christ in others just because I am at Mass and He is there in a special way in the Eucharist. In the Eucharist we receive Christ and are nourished by him and the community is made one with him – "The principal fruit of receiving the Eucharist is an intimate union with Christ Jesus (CCC1391). At times I get the impression that many people view the Mass as their time of private worship and adoration of Christ–but in my mind that is called Eucharistic Adoration. I see the Mass as our community worship–where we are strengthened and more fully united to Christ–and I don’t think we can do that if we are divided and harboring ill thoughts about those around us–I think it undermines what the Eucharist should be achieving. "The unity of the Mystical Body: the Eucharist makes the Church. Those who receive the Eucharist are united more closely to Christ. Through it Christ unites them to all the faithful in one body–the Church. Communion renews, strengthens, and deepens this incorporation into his Church, already achieved in Baptism. In Baptism we have been called to form but one body. The Eucharist fulfills this call…(CCC 1396).
I think many here judge those who don’t show up dressed in a manner they deem appropriate–unworthy and disrespectful–I do not because I cannot see into their hearts–for all I know they may not think they are dressing immodestly or inappropriately and their heart may be closer to God than the hearts of many who cast disapproving glances at their fellow brothers in Christ. I know that I am in the minority here but I question whether I can truly worship Christ and receive him worthily in the Eucharist if my actions and attitudes toward others at Mass are anything but welcoming and inviting–if I do not show Christs love to them and hopefully draw them closer to Christ–if I instead pass judgment on how they are dressed or the things they do or do not do at Mass. I do not know where they are on their faith journey and it is my belief I will be judged more harshly if I do something to derail their journey toward Christ than they will be for coming to Mass dressed in a manner that most here deem scandalous. Their dress can change if their faith can be nurtured and allowed to grow but it can’t if they are driven from the Church. As I read the Gospels Christ did seem more concerned with where ones heart was as opposed to external appearances of piety–one would hope they would be in sync but this is not always the case.

I guess I have been lucky in that I can’t remember a time at our parish when we have had a baby cry for or a child be disruptive for the whole hour and the Mass my family attends has quite a few young families with young children–which I am delighted to see. We have had Sundays where the babies do seem to feed off of each other but it hasn’t been overly distracting and I always offer up a quick prayer for the parents and the child, and the parents are pretty good about going to the vestibule if the child gets too loud for too long.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[GreyWings]

Mark, you articulate things beautifully. Just wanted to throw that out there. I can see how you strive to “walk the walk.” Awesome.

 

[EasterJoy]

I personally think it looks disrespectful to the Lord to “dress down,” but I’d rather see someone in jeans and a tee-shirt at Mass than not come at all. And really, they might not have “good” clothes. They might have only a casual wardrobe. What I can’t abide, though, are the flip-flops. People should wear actual shoes for health reasons. This applies to flip-flops in restaurants, hair salons, grocery stores, etc. Shoes and shirts should be required at Mass and everywhere else, and flip-flops aren’t really shoes.

Let’s get back to the topic of the thread. The OP was not distracted by clothing that she though was insufficiently formal for Mass. She wasn’t asking how to tell off the people in front of her. She was asking about how she might go about avoiding immodest dress without hurting someone’s feelings or causing someone to get upset because she moved:
“…short dresses and her undergarments are marked… the husband too wears very tight shirts and very tight khaki pants that accentuate his butt…”
In other words, she was not so concerned about getting her own needs met that she forgot that other people have needs, too. She remained charitable.

Unless the OP is unusually sensitive (which is possible), this is clothing that isn’t really appropriate anywhere. It is not the kind of clothing that is revealing in a way that is also necessary for a certain activity, such as swimwear. It is the kind of clothing chosen because it is revealing, purposefully meant to titillate, which is to say it is chosen so as to arouse either lust or envy in onlookers. The OP could avoid it rather easily out in the world, but it is hard to avoid noticing the people standing between you and the altar and less than three feet away.

***CCC 2521 **Purity requires modesty, an integral part of temperance. Modesty protects the intimate center of the person. It means refusing to unveil what should remain hidden. It is ordered to chastity to whose sensitivity it bears witness. It guides how one looks at others and behaves toward them in conformity with the dignity of persons and their solidarity.

**CCC 2522 **Modesty protects the mystery of persons and their love. It encourages patience and moderation in loving relationships; it requires that the conditions for the definitive giving and commitment of man and woman to one another be fulfilled. Modesty is decency. It inspires one’s choice of clothing. It keeps silence or reserve where there is evident risk of unhealthy curiosity. It is discreet. *

As for water shoes or flip flops, it is a stretch to forbid them “for health reasons.” What health reason would that be? What possible health hazard comes from the tops of our feet that doesn’t come from the palms of our hands, too?

Let’s face it: If these people were wearing a cloud of perfume that gave the OP a headache, we’d tell her to go ahead and move. We’d encourage her to find a church that has a section where people who are sensitive to perfume can sit. Well, unfortunately Catholic churches do not have sections for people who are trying to avoid being confronted with immodest clothing, even though we’d like to think that the entire church ought to be free of clothing purposefully chosen for the sexual thoughts it can arouse in others. I think if we did have sections like that, the Catholics who sat in them would suffer from judgment that people with a perfume sensitivity do not have to suffer. They would be accused of self-righteousness for wanting to avoid looking on people who choose their clothing for how sexy it is, even clothing to be worn to the Mass itself. Should we ask ourselves why that is, or should we just encourage this woman to sit wherever she is the most able to pray the Mass without distraction?

 

[GreyWings]

Let’s get back to the topic of the thread. The OP was not distracted by clothing that she though was insufficiently formal for Mass. She wasn’t asking how to tell off the people in front of her. She was asking about how she might go about avoiding immodest dress without hurting someone’s feelings or causing someone to get upset because she moved:
“…short dresses and her undergarments are marked… the husband too wears very tight shirts and very tight khaki pants that accentuate his butt…”

Unless the OP is unusually sensitive (which is possible), this is clothing that isn’t really appropriate anywhere. It is not the kind of clothing that is revealing in a way that is also necessary for a certain activity, such as swimwear. It is the kind of clothing chosen because it is revealing, purposefully meant to titillate, which is to say it is chosen so as to arouse either lust or envy in onlookers. The OP could avoid it rather easily out in the world, but it is hard to avoid noticing the people standing between you and the altar and less than three feet away.

Yes, good points buuuuut… shouldn’t people be focusing on what’s going on in mass with the readings and gospel and God rather than looking at the person next to you with judgment? Is it really so hard to just not look? Don’t get me wrong, as I’ve said like three times already I totally understand as I’ve been in this situation, too… but we go to mass as dutiful Catholics for God, not to clutch our pearls and be like, “ohmigherd whut is she/he wearing!?”

Some people just are not self-aware. Even though I am self-aware I’ve had bonehead moves: I have worn tights with a long t-shirt with sparkly stilettos and with the veil (which surely looked ridiculous) because I was in a hurry getting dressed… people might have their reasons, such as throwing on whatever clean clothes were around, or not being self-aware or perhaps in a hurry…

Let’s face it: If these people were wearing a cloud of perfume that gave the OP a headache, we’d tell her to go ahead and move. We’d encourage her to find a church that has a section where people who are sensitive to perfume can sit. Well, unfortunately Catholic Churches do not have sections for people who are trying to avoid being confronted with immodest clothing. I think if we did, they would suffer from judgment that people with a perfume sensitivity do not have to suffer. Should we ask ourselves why that is, or should we just encourage this woman to sit wherever she is the most able to pray the Mass without distraction?

A lot of church bulletins mention to please not wear perfume, even Fr. mentions this at the end of mass, and in this case it is perfectly reasonable to move for health reasons… but to move because of someone else’s clothes? It could be a teaching moment, as it was for me… think about it, wouldn’t Jesus embrace the immodestly dressed person? At least they’re at mass… and Jesus loves us all, and we’re all sinners, yet we should all strive to be Christ-like.

 

[EasterJoy]

Yes, good points buuuuut… shouldn’t people be focusing on what’s going on in mass with the readings and gospel and God rather than looking at the person next to you with judgment? Is it really so hard to just not look? Don’t get me wrong, as I’ve said like three times already I totally understand as I’ve been in this situation, too… but we go to mass as dutiful Catholics for God, not to clutch our pearls and be like, “ohmigherd whut is she/he wearing!?”

Some people just are not self-aware. Even though I am self-aware I’ve had bonehead moves: I have worn tights with a long t-shirt with sparkly stilettos and with the veil (which surely looked ridiculous) because I was in a hurry getting dressed… people might have their reasons, such as throwing on whatever clean clothes were around, or not being self-aware or perhaps in a hurry…

A lot of church bulletins mention to please not wear perfume, even Fr. mentions this at the end of mass, and in this case it is perfectly reasonable to move for health reasons… but to move because of someone else’s clothes? It could be a teaching moment, as it was for me… think about it, wouldn’t Jesus embrace the immodestly dressed person? At least they’re at mass… and Jesus loves us all, and we’re all sinners, yet we should all strive to be Christ-like.

Do not get me started on church bulletins that can mention that perfume bothers some people but cannot dare to mention that it is preferable that clothing for Mass be chosen with modesty in mind, lest Father be buried in indignant calls from people who think that anyone who thinks about sex when they look at someone* in clothing chosen precisely because it was “sexy”* is some kind of pervert!

These fellow parishioners are standing right in front of her for the Gospel with pants that look like they have been painted on. Yes, that is pretty hard to miss. This is not a one-time thing, either. These are parishioners that she recognizes as tight-clothing regulars.

What difference does it make? Why is it so hard to just let the OP move? If this doesn’t bother you, great. They can sit in front of you, and everyone is happy! Why is this so hard?

 

[LongingSoul]

E-7 is possibly being aware for her husbands sake also. I know that I’ve felt uncomfortable sitting in Mass near one of our perennial breastfeeder mums… but not for myself… for my husband and teen sons. She was fairly discreet and all, but I felt awkward about it.

 

[GreyWings]

Do not get me started on church bulletins that can mention that perfume bothers some people but cannot dare to mention that it is preferable that clothing for Mass be chosen with modesty in mind, lest Father be buried in indignant calls from people who think that anyone who thinks about sex when they look at someone* in clothing chosen precisely because it was “sexy”* is some kind of pervert!

These fellow parishioners are standing right in front of her for the Gospel with pants that look like they have been painted on. Yes, that is pretty hard to miss. This is not a one-time thing, either. These are parishioners that she recognizes as tight-clothing regulars.

What difference does it make? Why is it so hard to just let the OP move? If this doesn’t bother you, great. They can sit in front of you, and everyone is happy! Why is this so hard?

There’s a difference between moving because you cannot tolerate perfume and you got an autoimmune disorder and sitting next to someone who looks like they have a certain night job because maybe they do because they feel they have to in order to eat or maybe they have mental health issues or maybe you don’t know their financial situation or maybe it’s as simple as laundry or just not knowing what is what and yes this is meant to be an epic run-on sentence.

Sure, they can sit in front of me. And I will embrace them, because they are at mass, they are seeking God, and they are loved, too, just as you and I are - by God. 'Ain’t my place to judge anyone, that’s God’s business.

 

[jeannetherese]

There’s a difference between moving because you cannot tolerate perfume and you got an autoimmune disorder and sitting next to someone who looks like they have a certain night job because maybe they do because they feel they have to in order to eat or maybe they have mental health issues or maybe you don’t know their financial situation or maybe it’s as simple as laundry or just not knowing what is what and yes this is meant to be an epic run-on sentence.

Sure, they can sit in front of me. And I will embrace them, because they are at mass, they are seeking God, and they are loved, too, just as you and I are - by God. 'Ain’t my place to judge anyone, that’s God’s business.

Perhaps I misread the post by Easterjoy, but my sense was that it addressed the appropriateness of moving when the clothing of a nearby person risks becoming (or is) a near occasion of sin for oneself. (Thou shalt not covet…/avoiding lust.) might be an example.
In such circumstances, moving seems laudable and one might hope that the church community, in charity, might choose not to judge/condemn the one who moves but rather to trust in their good intentions (in this case, the desire for purity).
May God bless all who assist at Mass and all who visit our thread.
Amen.

 

[Kelfa28]

Moving away from the whole children in Mass thing…

E-7 has a valid concern…for both herself and her husband…IMHO.

Some people do wear clothes that are just really distracting and it makes it hard to concentrate on Mass.

It took me a very long time to notice this myself. Mostly because I’m a Catholic revert and did not start to attend Mass on a regular basis until after I had my first child.

Mass is a struggle to survive at this point, let alone pay attention, if I have all three of my children but there are rare occurrences that I attend by myself or with a quiet and nursing infant and I do notice what other people wear and it is distracting.

So, I really don’t blame E-7 for wanting to move…but, maybe it’s just me and my own bad experience, but why not just figure out a safe place to sit before hand and eliminate that fear entirely.
There are plenty of families that practically rent out their pews at the same Mass every week. Figure out who sits wear and make an effort to sit behind them…or just cut out the middle man…sit way up front and figure out a way to nurse modestly.

Last week was my youngest child’s baptism. We were in the very first pew…dead center. I had her in my carrier and nursed her the entire Mass (she fell asleep but still used me as a pacifier)…no one had any idea and I received communion with a nursing infant attached to me.

 

[EasterJoy]

Perhaps I misread the post by Easterjoy, but my sense was that it addressed the appropriateness of moving when the clothing of a nearby person risks becoming (or is) a near occasion of sin for oneself. (Thou shalt not covet…/avoiding lust.) might be an example.
In such circumstances, moving seems laudable and one might hope that the church community, in charity, might choose not to judge/condemn the one who moves but rather to trust in their good intentions (in this case, the desire for purity).
May God bless all who assist at Mass and all who visit our thread.
Amen.

This was the sense I got–that is, not “what terrible people these two are” but rather “this is a distraction that makes it difficult to pay attention to Mass.”

Honestly, if someone has a delightful child that you are tempted to flirt with for the whole Mass long and you decide you’d pay attention to the Mass better if you moved, then there is nothing wrong with moving.

There’s a difference between moving because you cannot tolerate perfume and you got an autoimmune disorder and sitting next to someone who looks like they have a certain night job because maybe they do because they feel they have to in order to eat or maybe they have mental health issues or maybe you don’t know their financial situation or maybe it’s as simple as laundry or just not knowing what is what and yes this is meant to be an epic run-on sentence.

Sure, they can sit in front of me. And I will embrace them, because they are at mass, they are seeking God, and they are loved, too, just as you and I are - by God. 'Ain’t my place to judge anyone, that’s God’s business.

Someone who looks like they have “a certain night job”?!? Good grief, the OP is talking about a fashion faux pas and you’re jumping all the way to prostitution? The OP is only talking about a married couple with a child or children in tow who wear clothing so tight and short that it is distracting* to her and her husband!* She never said anything whatsoever about the world’s oldest profession or mental health issues or not loving them or any of the rest! She is not gossiping about them or considering whether to butt in and tell them how to dress. She just wants to know if it was OK to move away from someone who’s clothing was a distraction because it was so revealing.

Notice that–she didn’t judge them. She just looked at their clothing and saw far more of their bodies revealed than she cared to see. She didn’t guess why. She didn’t make any guesses about the state of their souls. She just wants to know if she can move, because when clothing leaves two adult backsides two or three feet away and facing you with little left to your imagination, it is hard to ignore.

To be blunt, the OP is afraid to move because she’s afraid she is going to be judged by people who might jump to the very same conclusions about the OP that you are. That is really too bad. You give yourself room to judge who has a reason to move that is good enough for you and who doesn’t, but the OP is the one who is judgmental?

Can you love and embrace the person who moves, can you imagine that she is not judging anyone else but just trying to guard her own thoughts and her own focus, or is it that hard to imagine that the person who moves might only be doing so for reasons that are also God’s business and God’s business only?

 

[GreyWings]

Someone who looks like they have “a certain night job”?!? Good grief, the OP is talking about a fashion faux pas and you’re jumping all the way to prostitution?

Uh, I was being *humorous… *

If you took a moment to read my previous posts, you’d know I was being empathetic to E_7 because I understand. I’ve been there. I know what she’s talking about. I’m also in agreement with MarkinOregon in his statement that we don’t know the immodestly dressed person’s heart, yet they’re at mass, so who knows what’s really going on.

And for the record, I never mentioned prostitution. To BE serious, there’s all kinds of night jobs that would fit that description, such as being a waitress. Yes, waitress. Or retail clerk. Some waitress or clerk outfits are kinda revealing but part of the job description. Maybe the immodest person just got off work. Who knows? That’s what I’m saying - only with a bit of humor to lighten things up.

Notice that–she didn’t judge them.

Never said she did. I’m saying nobody should judge in general because we don’t know the circumstance, for reasons I already listed, such as my own lesson learned, in addition to Mark’s comments.

To be blunt, the OP is afraid to move because she’s afraid she is going to be judged by people who might jump to the very same conclusions about the OP that you are. That is really too bad. You give yourself room to judge who has a reason to move that is good enough for you and who doesn’t, but the OP is the one who is judgmental?

I’m not judging anyone. That’s the entire point I am making: do not judge. I am keeping Matthew 7 in mind as I read through and comment in this entire thread I was in a very similar situation and took it as a learning experience:
“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."*

Can you love and embrace the person who moves, can you imagine that she is not judging anyone else but just trying to guard her own thoughts and her own focus, or is it that hard to imagine that the person who moves might only be doing so for reasons that are also God’s business and God’s business only?

I am only saying that the best way to combat such a situation is to always extend love and grace. That is Christ like. That is what Jesus would do. Jesus embraced lepers. Jesus embraced prostitutes. Jesus loved everyone. And that’s all I’m saying. We should love, no matter the circumstance. And hey, if a person’s gotta move because of their own personal convictions, then move. But love still, though, with no judgment, and with empathy - from all corners.

You give yourself room to judge who has a reason to move that is good enough for you and who doesn’t, but the OP is the one who is judgmental?

… Um, whoa.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Thank you for your kind words. Tone can be so hard to communicate (at least for me) in the written word and it is easy to read the wrong tone into others posts–so I always try to give them the benefit of the doubt–thank you for doing that for me.

I understand what you are saying but Christ said, “As you did it to one of these, the least of my brethren, you did it to me” (Mt 25:40). To me this says that I do indeed meet the the living Christ in others also–I just have to see it (and this is something I struggle with and constantly work on). I don’t think I am excused from finding Christ in others just because I am at Mass and He is there in a special way in the Eucharist. In the Eucharist we receive Christ and are nourished by him and the community is made one with him – "The principal fruit of receiving the Eucharist is an intimate union with Christ Jesus (CCC1391). At times I get the impression that many people view the Mass as their time of private worship and adoration of Christ–but in my mind that is called Eucharistic Adoration. I see the Mass as our community worship–where we are strengthened and more fully united to Christ–and I don’t think we can do that if we are divided and harboring ill thoughts about those around us–I think it undermines what the Eucharist should be achieving. "The unity of the Mystical Body: the Eucharist makes the Church. Those who receive the Eucharist are united more closely to Christ. Through it Christ unites them to all the faithful in one body–the Church. Communion renews, strengthens, and deepens this incorporation into his Church, already achieved in Baptism. In Baptism we have been called to form but one body. The Eucharist fulfills this call…(CCC 1396).
I think many here judge those who don’t show up dressed in a manner they deem appropriate–unworthy and disrespectful–I do not because I cannot see into their hearts–for all I know they may not think they are dressing immodestly or inappropriately and their heart may be closer to God than the hearts of many who cast disapproving glances at their fellow brothers in Christ. I know that I am in the minority here but I question whether I can truly worship Christ and receive him worthily in the Eucharist if my actions and attitudes toward others at Mass are anything but welcoming and inviting–if I do not show Christs love to them and hopefully draw them closer to Christ–if I instead pass judgment on how they are dressed or the things they do or do not do at Mass. I do not know where they are on their faith journey and it is my belief I will be judged more harshly if I do something to derail their journey toward Christ than they will be for coming to Mass dressed in a manner that most here deem scandalous. Their dress can change if their faith can be nurtured and allowed to grow but it can’t if they are driven from the Church. As I read the Gospels Christ did seem more concerned with where ones heart was as opposed to external appearances of piety–one would hope they would be in sync but this is not always the case.

I guess I have been lucky in that I can’t remember a time at our parish when we have had a baby cry for or a child be disruptive for the whole hour and the Mass my family attends has quite a few young families with young children–which I am delighted to see. We have had Sundays where the babies do seem to feed off of each other but it hasn’t been overly distracting and I always offer up a quick prayer for the parents and the child, and the parents are pretty good about going to the vestibule if the child gets too loud for too long.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

Hi Mark,

Yes, I think you’re right, and I, too, think you expressed it beautifully. It is easy to see that you look for Christ in everyone and are a loving and caring person.

I don’t really care what others wear to Mass, but I will admit I wish they’d wear shoes and not flip flops, but that’s not going to make me not care about the person. I am assuming Jesus, himself, wore sandals.

I am not used to small children, so I think I am overly sensitive to them. I grew up in a cloister with nuns, so I am used to quiet. We have some younger children at our church, though, who are genuinely delightful and a lot of fun. They take great joy in the sign of peace and it’s wonderful to see their faith. Some even pray on the altar steps with their parents after Mass.

I think you are right. Mass is worship in community. Eucharistic Adoration is more of a private meeting with Jesus.

Thank you for your post and your words of wisdom, and a Blessed Sunday to you - and to all.

 

[GreyWings]

Hi Mark,

Yes, I think you’re right, and I, too, think you expressed it beautifully. It is easy to see that you look for Christ in everyone and are a loving and caring person.

I don’t really care what others wear to Mass, but I will admit I wish they’d wear shoes and not flip flops, but that’s not going to make me not care about the person. I am assuming Jesus, himself, wore sandals.

I am not used to small children, so I think I am overly sensitive to them. I grew up in a cloister with nuns, so I am used to quiet. We have some younger children at our church, though, who are genuinely delightful and a lot of fun. They take great joy in the sign of peace and it’s wonderful to see their faith. Some even pray on the altar steps with their parents after Mass.

I think you are right. Mass is worship in community. Eucharistic Adoration is more of a private meeting with Jesus.

Thank you for your post and your words of wisdom, and a Blessed Sunday to you - and to all.

And to you as well, Lily, I have enjoyed your (name removed by moderator)ut in the comments and your insight regarding this interesting discussion. Pax tecum to you and to all.