MP Signed and Ready

[KofC660]

Okay…vandalism in 1998 is a terrible thing.

It was the most interesting article I could find about the Church in Gresham, Oregon!

 

[rlg94086]

Unfortunately, this resurgent “conservative Catholicism” represents a distortion of Traditional Catholic theology and is more dangerous even than modernism because it masquerades as “conservatism” by appropriating the title. In point of fact it conserves nothing but is the product of a Hegelian dialectic between Tradition and the modernism of Vatican II and the modern popes, resulting in a Hegelian synthetic conservatism which in no way resembles Traditional Catholicism – a theological school aptly described as “Neo-Catholicism”.

“Conservative” or “orthodox” Catholicism is what has led me and others to the Traditional, so I think you are wrong. By falling in love with the history and teaching of the Church, it is only natural that one will be led to the Traditional Latin Mass.

 

[rescath]

I HEAR what you are saying, it would be utterly devastating if the MP has no teeth…by the sound of things however it WILL.

By the sound of what? The wishful thinking of people in this forum ? Everything I’ve read states that the bishops would still have final say in the matter.

If the MP has no teeth, that will do more harm than any event of the last 40 years because it will destroy any hope that was left in the few who really cared.

agreed

LOL, the MP will have no teeth but Russia will be consecrated? You have just turned the tables, if you dont think the MP will be issued I guarantee the consecration wont even appear on the radar.

I don’t believe that this pope will consecrate Russia. What I was saying is that the crisis in the Church will not be resolved by an MP. It runs much deeper than that and only the divine rescue promised by Our Lady will turn things around.

 

[rlg94086]

It was the most interesting article I could find about the Church in Gresham, Oregon!

A fine group of Knights…no idea about the parish though.

I’m guessing you must have a financial background, because I had never heard of Gresham’s law before now. Learned something new! :dancing:

 

[rescath]

“Conservative” or “orthodox” Catholicism is what has led me and others to the Traditional, so I think you are wrong. By falling in love with the history and teaching of the Church, it is only natural that one will be led to the Traditional Latin Mass.

But the problem runs much deeper than just the Mass. Remember that these theological errors (modernism and the like) were proposed by priests who offered the Traditional Mass.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Unfortunately, this resurgent “conservative Catholicism” represents a distortion of Traditional Catholic theology and is more dangerous even than modernism because it masquerades as “conservatism” by appropriating the title. In point of fact it conserves nothing but is the product of a Hegelian dialectic between Tradition and the modernism of Vatican II and the modern popes, resulting in a Hegelian synthetic conservatism which in no way resembles Traditional Catholicism – a theological school aptly described as “Neo-Catholicism”.

NO, there was a thread about this very issue, you are talking about NEO-Conservativism which I also reject. The conservative I am talking about is akin to the term “traditionalist” (little ‘t’).

A neo-conservative is basically a Republican. A “conservative” in the sense I am using is one who belongs to no political party and puts the Church as front and center of everything.

 

[rlg94086]

But the problem runs much deeper than just the Mass. Remember that these theological errors (modernism and the like) were proposed by priests who offered the Traditional Mass.

Yeah, but a lot of those theological errors are being countered by the “conservatives.” The only thing that surprises/confuses me is that I learned that some of these “conservatives” are also embracing the Charismatic Renewal. I’m not thrilled about that. I have some Pentecostal experience in my pre-Catholic background. Nutty.

 

[rlg94086]

NO, there was a thread about this very issue, you are talking about NEO-Conservativism which I also reject. The conservative I am talking about is akin to the term “traditionalist” (little ‘t’).

A neo-conservative is basically a Republican. A “conservative” in the sense I am using is one who belongs to no political party and puts the Church as front and center of everything.

A problem of terms. The word “conservative” when applied to a Catholic should not be equated with politics. I think that’s why some people prefer to use “orthodox”…which has other obvious problems.

 

[KofC660]

Unfortunately, this resurgent “conservative Catholicism” represents a distortion of Traditional Catholic theology and is more dangerous even than modernism because it masquerades as “conservatism” by appropriating the title. In point of fact it conserves nothing but is the product of a Hegelian dialectic between Tradition and the modernism of Vatican II and the modern popes, resulting in a Hegelian synthetic conservatism which in no way resembles Traditional Catholicism – a theological school aptly described as “Neo-Catholicism”.

Absolutely. It never occurred to me, but this “traditionalism” of today IS a Hegelian Synthesis.

What bothers me the most is that there is no continuity in Catholic culture among [non-ethnic identifying] Americans. In my archdiocese the Tridentine Mass wasn’t celebrated between sometime in the 1960’s until 1994. That’s about 30 years of tradition being left alone to die. I can’t help but believe that much of what is “tradition” today is people’s reinvention of tradition, based on their [understandable] opposition to the Novus Ordo Mass.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

By the sound of what? The wishful thinking of people in this forum ? Everything I’ve read states that the bishops would still have final say in the matter.

What have you been reading? Everything I read, including the driving force behind the need for this MP, is that the Bishops will not have the final say anymore on that issue.

I don’t believe that this pope will consecrate Russia. What I was saying is that the crisis in the Church will not be resolved by an MP. It runs much deeper than that and only the divine rescue promised by Our Lady will turn things around.

Lets agree that if the MP is never issued there will be no chance the consecration will occur. If the MP is issued, and a strong faithful generation emerges then that certainly dramatically increases the chances of future breakthroughs in the faith.

 

[rlg94086]

I can’t help but believe that much of what is “tradition” today is people’s reinvention of tradition, based on their [understandable] opposition to the Novus Ordo Mass.

I think you are correct to a degree. As I have mentioned in a couple of threads, we have a Latin Mass in our parish, and I have been to a couple in other parishes. They are the Pauline Mass done in Latin, but the amount of Latin varies - no continuity.

 

[udoc89]

I have confidence in the Pope, I just don’t have any confidence in Americans!

The idea of being a Catholic in America is to make America Catholic. However, all I see is Americans trying to make Catholicism more American.

Well, KofC, I hope you’re wrong. I can’t wait! I converted 10 years ago, and I’ve yet to experience The Latin Mass.

You may be correct, and there’ll be a lot more fallen away Catholics, but a strong, committed remnant will remain. I’m prayerfully confident of that.

Cheers!

 

[Like]

I don’t believe that this pope will consecrate Russia. What I was saying is that the crisis in the Church will not be resolved by an MP. It runs much deeper than that and only the divine rescue promised by Our Lady will turn things around.

Pray tell, What is this divine rescue?

 

[Icarus210]

Just a thought,

I hope in the end times when all the living Jews realise that Christ is actually the Messiah and convert they can actually find a catholic church to pray in.

Maybe they will be the ones who bring back the traditional Church.

Iccy

 

[Nino]

This comes from rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/

Italian Papal News website: Motu proprio "signed and imminent"

by Bruno Volpe

The Papal “Motu Proprio” for the liberalization of the Latin Mass according to the Tridentine rite of Saint Pius V is ready, is about to be translated into several languages and will be published right before the departure of Benedict XVI for the summer vacation. [Rorate note: The Pope’s early vacation this summer will be spent in a small villa owned by the Diocese of Treviso, in the tiny hamlet of Lorenzago di Cadore, Province of Belluno, in the Veneto region, in the July 9-27 period.]

The text has already been signed by the Pontiff, who has even written a long exaplanatory letter, of a theological character, “addressed to all the Bishops of the world”, as it can be read in its introduction, “so that they may receive this document with serenity and patience”.

The Pope thus asks the Bishops, the clergy, and the faithful for a serene mood in the acceptance of the “Motu Proprio”, which will be presented in a Press Conference by Cardinals Francis Arinze, Dario Castrillon Hoyos, and Julian Herranz.

The delay in the publication of the document seems to be related to strong oppositions from some sectors of the clergy (especially from the French Episcopal Conference).

Monsignor Nicola Bux (a personal friend of the Pope), a theologian and collaborator of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, declares: “You may write calmly [that] Pope Benedict XVI loves agreement and collaboration, and does not wish to decide everything on his own, which is why he has heard several and repeated opinions, but the Motu Proprio for the liberalization of the Latin Mass has been signed and its publication is imminent, I would say it is a matter of days.”

The Tridentine Mass is completely celebrated in Latin, with the exception of a few words and sentences in Ancient Greek and in Hebrew; it is interspersed with long periods of silence, to allow the faithful to adequately meditate on the greatness of the Eucharistic mystery which they are called to attend. The faithful follow the liturgy reading the bilingual handmissal or leaflet, which carry, side by side with the Latin text, the integral translation of the actions in Italian or in the other national languages.

It is not only the use of the ecclesiastical and universal language (“Catholic” means precisely universal) which represents the sole standing difference between the Tridentine Mass and the modern one. The priest, differently than what takes place in the course of the new rite, turns his back to the faithful, as he celebrates turned to the tabernacle and the altar which constitutes the representation of Calvary; the image is that of the celebrant who guides the people.

The Gospel is always read at the right side of the altar, while the Epistle on the left side (from whence the terms “in cornu evangelii” and “in cornu epistulae”). Communion - only the Host [sic] for the faithful - is received while kneeling and in the mouth.

[The faithful] mostly kneel during Mass, because [they] believe in its great mystery, because [they] believe in the real presence of Jesus in body, blood, soul, and divinity, because kneeling is the posture of the humble sinner who begs for God’s mercy.

The limitation of the Tridentine Mass by the Second Vatican Council [sic] has been the main cause of the schism between the followers of French bishop Marcel Lefebvre and the Church of Rome. A painful schism , which arose in the Pontificate of John Paul II, which, with the “Motu Proprio” of Benedict XVI, seems destined to return definitively.

 

[Nino]

…how wonderful…I was teaching in a Catholic High school when the 'teachings of Vat11 hit…so many of the nuns changed their religious habits into one that looked like airline stewardises…and with their short hair and immature way of putting on make up …well both orders at the school…Dominican and Mercy have long since died out…guess this was the plan…Nino

 

[Wonko_the_Sane]

…Extremely good news…

I think the time is ripe for me to offer myself as an altar server if my priest agrees to celebrating the Mass of Ages…

 

[stmaria]

Have you seen a N.O. Mass telecast from the Vatican lately?
St. (I mean Pope) Benedict XVI does the N.O.Mass in Latin. I have seen a few on TV and on the Internet. Very reverent.

[Edited by Moderator]

From Pope Benedict’s book *Milestones *1998 pg. 148-149

“I am convinced that the crisis in the Church that we are experiencing is to a large extent due to the disintegration of the liturgy…..when the community of faith, the worldwide unity of the Church and her history, and the mystery of the living Christ are no longer visible in the liturgy, where else, then, is the Church to become visible in her spiritual essence? Then the community is celebrating only itself, an activity that is utterly fruitless.”

 

[AdvanceAlways]

I guess it is time for me to start going back to my old Parrish, a parrish i abandoned a while back cause it was to orthodox…(I still cant believe how liberal i used to be…married priests/woman priests…yikes!) I know for sure that this Church will indeed offer the TLM. The first time I went back to it in February (first time as an Latin Mass Catholic) I realized it looked like it was just waiting for the return of Latin.

 

[Wolseley]

[Edited by Moderator]

From Pope Benedict’s book *Milestones *1998 pg. 148-149

“I am convinced that the crisis in the Church that we are experiencing is to a large extent due to the disintegration of the liturgy…..when the community of faith, the worldwide unity of the Church and her history, and the mystery of the living Christ are no longer visible in the liturgy, where else, then, is the Church to become visible in her spiritual essence? Then the community is celebrating only itself, an activity that is utterly fruitless.”

Well, I certainly agree with the Holy Father on that score.

I myself would personally prefer to just go back to the Missal of 1965 (which was basically a TLM celebrated in English), [Edited by Moderator]