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fix
Guest
felra said:
It seems events like this are one more attempt to normalize what is not normal.
"Mr. Gay USA" -- They left out the moral component of the "whole person"!
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It seems events like this are one more attempt to normalize what is not normal.
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MichaelTDoyle
Guest
The frustration I feel at this topic is that society is trying to approve of behaviour that is a mortal sin. Secular people are having a hard time accepting Christ because they’ve been braiinwashed that these sexual mortal sins that degrade the person are somehow not degrading. Once they believe that sex outside of marriage is not a sin, or not bad and approve of it, how can they follow the calling of the Holy Spirit to Christ, who tells the the opposite? They thikn sexual mores is old fogey thinkin’ so it follows that so is the Truth.
Whatever intention the people who obscure the mortal sinfulness of these activities, they are endangering their and others souls. This is a tragedy that if we could see it with spiritual eyes would send us to grieving: it is the loss of souls who should long for God.
I can understand why this topic makes the faithful angry. Pray, pray pray (advice I need to follow myself)
Whatever intention the people who obscure the mortal sinfulness of these activities, they are endangering their and others souls. This is a tragedy that if we could see it with spiritual eyes would send us to grieving: it is the loss of souls who should long for God.
I can understand why this topic makes the faithful angry. Pray, pray pray (advice I need to follow myself)
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Albedo
Guest
" here.
Why do you “take the time out of your day to discuss your personal displeasure” with those who present this important topic for discussion and point out the moral implications of such a degrading and anit-Gospel event?
Apparently some Catholics have different views on things than others. Heaven forbid we don’t all conform to one strict thought process like a bunch of lemmings.
Apparently I “take the time out of my day to discuss my personal displeasure” because I’m a hypocrite! Fancy that! I’m a human and I’m flawed, just like you, and just like everyone else on these forums. What do you want me to do? Shut up because I don’t kowtow to every little thing someone says? Just like everyone on here speaks up about what they consider to be wrong, I think I have the right to do so too. I’m sorry if I come across as trying to flame someone.
Perhaps I don’t think homosexual acts are degrading – perhaps I do. That isn’t the question here, I don’t think so. Does that mean I’m less of a Catholic than you are, if I don’t think homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered, though? I think it means, perhaps, that I need to pray about this and change my mind – so that my thoughts are in line with the Church’s teaching. I don’t think it means I’m a bad Catholic though, and I feel like you personally attacked my Catholic faith. Perhaps I’m a moral objectivist. Does that mean I have to bring my personal feelings into every little thing I say? I don’t think so. I don’t think I have to say “you should try and cool down, but I THINK GAY PEOPLE ARE BAD, DON’T WORRY.”
If you think I’m being morally ambigious in my “argumentation,” then you misunderstand me, I think. I try and be the devil’s advocate and take potentially unpopular positions much of the time, and I try to present my views in an un-biased manner. Why should I bring my own personal views into a debate? So if you think I’m being “ambigious,” feel free to IM me on AIM and ask me what I think about homosexuality, personally, if you’re so interested. I think it’s against the rules to ask personal information from another poster on the forums, yes?
God bless you, anyway. I’m sorry if anything I said sounded disrespectful, felra.
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Albedo
Guest
I’m glad you don’t hate anyone, then. That’s good for you. I just wish some people could talk more sensitively about certain topics, I guess, that’s all. Perhaps I’m asking too much of people because the homosexuality debate is such a heated and emotional one … but, I don’t know. Whatever. =)
I understand that peoples’ intentions are good, and in the case of many Catholics and Christians their harshness only stems from the fact that they’re trying to save souls, which is fabulous. But it just seems that … people can be a bit insensitive to people who are different from them, that’s all.
I don’t ever remember being taught that homosexual behavior is acceptable or good when I was in school. If this truly happens – and I hear it does – then it saddens me, to be honest. And I’m sorry you feel that streets and parks are “havens for perverted behavior.” Peoples’ bedrooms are havens for perverted behavior as well, eh? I’ve never seen any homosexuals fornicating in public, anyway – to be quite blunt! – if that’s what you were getting at.
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Albedo
Guest
You’ve presented a lovely argument for your opinions and I really don’t find myself disagreeing with much of anything you’ve put forth. The homosexual agenda frightens me as well, and I think it’s extremely dehumanizing to the men (and women) involved, as another poster pointed out.
You say “one image of a ‘gay-pride’ parade destroys the innocent of children. It’s a constant battle.” I agree that seeing such a display of blatant sexuality isn’t good for any child, and if anyone wants children to grow up innocently and without such negative images, it’s me, don’t worry. Don’t you think that Victoria’s Secret ads and mannequins can hurt a child’s innocence, too, though? What about when a man gets drunk and beats his wife (or the other way around; I don’t mean to pick on men, here)? I think some people just have an unhealthy fascination with combatting the homosexual agenda when there are other sins we need to fight against, too, I suppose. I think some people go *overboard *on their displeasure with homosexuality and the homosexual lifestyle. It frightens me, to be honest, because I’m afraid their displeasure can reach un-Christian proportions sometimes.
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Brad
Guest
It it were to stay in the bedroom, I would be sad for their souls. Because it has branched outside of the bedroom, I am sad for their souls and the scandal on the world that witnesses the behavior, and the children that get the idea that sexual behavior involving fornication, promiscuity, and even the unnatural is healthy and celabratory.
Fornication and worse in public? That’s what happens at most of these events. “Gay” “pride” parades? What large city doesn’t have one? - and almost inevitably they involve perverse dress or no dress and lewd acttions. It is something to make any good Christian’s head turn the other way. But how much head-turning do we have to do? I’d rather have a society that celebrates purity, or at least doesn’t allow debauchery in public.
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Brad
Guest
I think the problem is there is an overboard promotion of homosexuality activity as normal and ok.
At many places of employment, “gay-pride” is celebrated. Believe me, I’ll be just as scandalized when these same places have corporate sponsorship of the celebration of women wearing revealing lingerie to seduce men other than their spouses.
When adulterers are able to apply for special benefits, that will be a big problem. Too a degree and indirectly they can(health benefits for contraception) - and when I run across such I am just as strongly against it.
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Albedo
Guest
Right, I forgot to say, I understand that most people do “hate the sin but love the sinner.” It just seems that sometimes they forget that … I guess. It’s hard to be analytical and cold when discussing these sorts of things, though, it’s just such a complex and emotional topic. I do feel bad that I implied that anyone on this site might “hate people” because that isn’t really fair of me to say. Just wanted to mention that, too.
Sometimes I let my emotions take over the logical parts of my brain and I say things I don’t really mean. My apologies if I offended you, Brad, or anyone else.
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fix
Guest
I think the view you are expressing is unfortunately the result of constant desensitization to sin. I am not very old, yet in my life only 25-30 years ago things that are common today would not only be unacceptable, but anyone proposing many topics we accept as reasonable would be seen as laughable if not demonic.
Take the concept of “gay” marriage. This is not some distant, marginal kooky idea it is mainstream. The Pope termed it a new ideology of evil. Too often, many see the fight against this agenda as a fight against “gay” people and call it bigotry. IMO, that is because the homosexualists have stolen the topic and control the debate.
What other significant issue would one have to step so lightly over so as not to be called a bigot? If adults were passing out cocaine to 5 year olds and saying that was a good idea, would so many be so concerned about sensitivity issues?
Now, you may say that is an exaggeration. Who would suggest passing out cocaine to 5 year olds? I say who would have thought we would see 2 men kissing on TV or talk about “gay” marriage?
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Albedo
Guest
I agree with you on that, the homosexual agenda is certainly powerful in this era, and it unnerves me as well. I think they’ve gone beyond seeking tolerance and acceptance to putting down heterosexuals, honestly. The homosexual agenda has gotten very much out of hand, and I think that’s lead to a greater backlash against the homosexual community, too. It’s really quite a depressing situation, and there isn’t an easy answer that will fix everything.
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Albedo
Guest
Not to sound rude, but – I don’t think you can really claim to know me or say that I’m “desensitized to sin” based on one exchange. You might be surprised at my revulsion to sinfulness if you actually got to *know *me, which you don’t, I dare say. Perhaps you’re right that I’m desensitized to sin in this one instance. I probably am. Perhaps I even have a personal stake in this debate, but I’m not going to bring that into it, because it isn’t necessary or rational to do so.
Perhaps you’ll like it if I mention that I don’t support legalizing gay marriage? I’ll just throw that out there, anyway, since you’ve apparently made your own views on particular subjects quite clear. I think it’s likely A Bad Thing ™ that people allow their young children to see two men kissing on TV – they shouldn’t, if they disagree with it and feel it could adversely affect their child’s development. We do live in a culture that tends to be more concerned about being politically correct than it is about moral objectivism – everyone knows that. It’s not good, but what are we supposed to do about it? I just feel like it’s a hopeless battle sometimes … =l
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felra
Guest
felra:
, I think I have the right to do so too. I’m sorry if I come across as trying to flame someone.
Perhaps I don’t think homosexual acts are degrading – perhaps I do. That isn’t the question here, I don’t think so. Does that mean I’m less of a Catholic than you are, if I don’t think homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered, though? I think it means, perhaps, that I need to pray about this and change my mind – so that my thoughts are in line with the Church’s teaching.** I don’t think it means I’m a bad Catholic** though, and I feel like you personally attacked my Catholic faith. Perhaps I’m a moral objectivist. Does that mean I have to bring my personal feelings into every little thing I say? I don’t think so. I don’t think I have to say “you should try and cool down, but I THINK GAY PEOPLE ARE BAD, DON’T WORRY.”
If you think I’m being morally ambigious in my “argumentation,” then you misunderstand me, I think. I try and be the devil’s advocate and take potentially unpopular positions much of the time, and I try to present my views in an un-biased manner.** Why should I bring my own personal views into a debate?** So if you think I’m being “ambigious,” feel free to IM me on AIM and ask me what I think about homosexuality, personally, if you’re so interested. I think it’s against the rules to ask personal information from another poster on the forums, yes?
God bless you, anyway. I’m sorry if anything I said sounded disrespectful, felra.
I appreciate the response and lively exchange. This is what it means to be Catholic and to engage the relevent issues of our times as Catholic Christians (vs other denomination Chrisitians).
Unfortunately, too often, folks ascribe emotionalism and personal attack when I am only critquing and challenging misnomer statements and distortion of what the Church actually says about the condition and proper response to someone struggling with SSA (or unabashedly living/promoting the homosexual lifestyle).
I fail to see why you are not, how you are not bringing you own personal views into debate. If not your views, please cite whose views that you are a proponent of or maybe a disclaimer would be in order: “Note: The following views expressed are not necessarily those of this poster …”.
Warning: If try to take the devil’s advocate position on these CA boards, then be prepared to take some heat in defence of your position.
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Brad
Guest
No offense taking. Just clarifying.Right, I forgot to say, I understand that most people do “hate the sin but love the sinner.” It just seems that sometimes they forget that … I guess. It’s hard to be analytical and cold when discussing these sorts of things, though, it’s just such a complex and emotional topic. I do feel bad that I implied that anyone on this site might “hate people” because that isn’t really fair of me to say. Just wanted to mention that, too.
Sometimes I let my emotions take over the logical parts of my brain and I say things I don’t really mean. My apologies if I offended you, Brad, or anyone else.
In today’s world, which sees the gravely immoral as normal, it is necessary to use firm, direct, and unrelenting language to describe reality rather than talk around the reality. The only way to solve a problem is to face it directly. We are so accustomed to sliding down the slippery slope that we have forgotten how to climb, let alone know where the mountain top is. A rescue mission is the only way out of the mud.
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Albedo
Guest
Albedo:
I also enjoy lively debate, but I don’t want to come across as being nasty or attacking anyone personally, so I tend to avoid online argumentation, to be honest.
You point out that I *do *bring my personal beliefs into the argument/debate even though I try not to, and you’re quite right. I try to speak from a neutral point of view, but honestly, it doesn’t always work out that way.
I know what the Church says about same-sex attraction and homosexual acts, for the most part. I’m not one of the people you need to be educating, honestly, but I’m glad you work to defend the faith. Always a good thing to do. =)
I’m certainly prepared to take some heat for my views (or those that I might defend simply for the sake of having more lively conversation around these parts), which might not necessarily be popular around here, but if somebody doesn’t speak up when they desire to – well, what sort of society does that encourage? I just don’t *enjoy *arguing, honestly, but sometimes I feel compelled to put my two cents out there. That’s all.
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fix
Guest
I did not mean to imply you were persoanlly desensitized to sin. I should have been more clear.
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Albedo
Guest
Good, I’m glad I didn’t come across as offensive. I strive not to, but sometimes I think I sound a bit too harsh, I dunno’ …
You’re right, there is the slippery slope dilemma in our “culture of death,” and it greatly scares me. I’m glad that there are people like you willing to be out there and defend the faith, and put forth their views in an intelligent, polite manner. It’s what I try to do, but sometimes I just don’t see the point … most of us aren’t going to change our minds, anyway. I just like to get my own (perhaps dissenting) opinions out there once in a while, too, I guess.
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Albedo
Guest
No problem! I can be extremely over-sensitive sometimes. I do appreciate the clarification, though. Thank you.
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iserve
Guest
Part of the reaction of Christians could be that, throughout history, for those societies that have sanctioned/allowed homosexuality to flourish, this has proven to be the beginning of the end. God was so offended that He completely destroyed Sodom and Gommorah, presumably including those within these places who were not homosexuals, but who, by default, accepted the behavior. This is a justifiable reason for people to fear such acceptance, and all that seems to come with it. Just observe the polarization and intensity of the arguments it is already causing in the few short years in our midst.
Another consideration, and one that I feel is often overlooked is the rationale for the sanctity of the body. This is true not only for individuals, but also for the community body, which are mutually reflective of one another. If a part of your body stops contributing, such as lack of circulation in the foot or hand, it is better to cut it off than to cause the rest of the body to collapse and die. The same goes true for those within the body of Christians who practice evil and poison the minds of others within it. Again, Scripture tells us that there are no half-truths in heaven, and that what is not for us is against us. We are asked to offer love, but nowhere does it say that we must do so at the expense of the truth.
Another consideration, and one that I feel is often overlooked is the rationale for the sanctity of the body. This is true not only for individuals, but also for the community body, which are mutually reflective of one another. If a part of your body stops contributing, such as lack of circulation in the foot or hand, it is better to cut it off than to cause the rest of the body to collapse and die. The same goes true for those within the body of Christians who practice evil and poison the minds of others within it. Again, Scripture tells us that there are no half-truths in heaven, and that what is not for us is against us. We are asked to offer love, but nowhere does it say that we must do so at the expense of the truth.
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Brad
Guest
We are all called to be prophetic in whatever way we can. The best way is to study the Word of God, live it, and proclaim it. That should always be the goal. However, even if we fail in living it (sin - we all do), that should not stop us from doing the other 2 things. There are plenty of those opposed to Christ willing to promote their world view. If we do not counter-balance them then who will? Who will future generations be influenced by?
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m134e5
Guest
I have been very charitable to the gay community, and I am compassionate towards those who struggle with homosexuality (as you can see by my other posts on the subject- there are many). They have not reciprocated.I hope you feel that female beauty pageants aren’t about the whole person, too, and it’s not just the “gay” ones that only focus on vain aspects of the individual. You know wrath is one of the seven deadly sins, too, right? Inappropriate anger, I think. I suggest you try to avoid it, my friend. I pray you can keep it in check in regards to those whom agendas you disagree with.
I’m sorry if I sound like I’m flaming. I’m just trying to respectfully disagree with you, m134e5, and I sometimes come across as being harsh, perhaps – no hard feelings, though.
I’m not trying to single you out and pick on you, either. I see many people who need to try and cut down on their wrathful (in my opinion) view of the homosexual culture. Homosexuals may be wrong in their acts, but we should still love them as fellow human beings, right? I’m not asking you to accept their sins. We’re all sinners, though, aren’t we? Don’t waste your life hating people … I’m all too familiar with hating people, so I speak from experience, here.
For the record, I think you have valid arguments against the gay community. I just feel you could word them more sensitively. You seem … angry. You should try to settle down a bit, my friend, for the good of your soul.
I feel the same way about female beauty pageants, so it’s not just a “gay” thing- but this thread is not about beauty pageants.
The gay culture thrives on constant stimulation (be it sexual, emotional, or physical). It is a very vain, hedonistic, and vengeful culture. I have seen enough of it to know this to be true. I have lost friends and family members to it. I have seen marriages torn apart because of it- because the gay community thought it was just great that they left their wife and kids to move in with some guy they “fell in love” with. I’ve seen the PFLAG and Pride chapter meetings where they have one pitiful “testimony” after another where people who just feel sorry for themselves whine about how evil religious people told them they were going to hell then they met. I’ve dealt with MANY gay people who are offended at the littlest of things, and that’s it- they do not believe in forgiveness.
Many people on this board have a “wrathful” or “vengeful” attitude towards the gay lifestyle because that lifestyle has the same attitude towards them. They are so open-minded and embracing of all- that is, until someone disagrees with their lifestyle. Some may be struggling with homosexuality themselves and have seen the lifestyle for what it is and have left- only to be hated by the people they’ve met when they finally get told “no” (as if they owe them sex!).
I am not inappropriately angry- I’m just being blunt. (Sometimes I forget you can’t tell the difference here). The fact of the matter is at our baptism we made a vow before God to “reject Satan, all his works, and all his empty promises”. That is all the gay lifestyle is- an empty promise. It promises you love, happiness, acceptance, and peace- all you get is self-centeredness, bitterness, moral relativism, and shame.
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